Centering Prayer

[urquhart]

vicia3:

What is the difference between “sacred word” and mantra?

This is the definition I found for mantra:
"mantra

n 1: a commonly repeated word or phrase; “she repeated So pleased with how its going' at intervals like a mantra" 2: (Sanskrit) literally a sacred utterance’ in Vedism; one of a collection of orally transmitted poetic hymns”
Don’t you just pick a sacred word, like Jesus or part of the scriptures and repeat it over and over. Isn’t that the definition of mantra?

Also, I do not agree with the “Cloud of the Unknowing.”

Some years ago I wandered far from Christianity, dabbled in oriental religions, and studied yoga in depth. That dictionary definition doesn’t really get at what “mantra” means in Sanskrit. It means more properly, a word that has, in itself, the power to bring about what it signifies through its own sound vibration. For example, the mantra “om” is supposed to be the physical sound the whole universe makes, and by repeating this mantra one comes into harmony with the whole universe; the mantra “shrim” is the root sound of wealth, and by repeating this mantra one supposedly attracts prosperity into his life.

I am not a CP practitioner, but this is certainly not what they purport to do when they repeat a “sacred word”.

And I must ask, if you do not agree with the Cloud of Unknowing,
does that mean you also do not agree with the Rosary, the Jesus Prayer, the Liturgy of the Hours, or the Mass? For these all involve, to varying degrees, the use of repeated sacred words with the intent of drawing closer to God.

 

[springbreeze]

Dear friends

These links explain the following prayers:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12608b.htm

The Prayer of Quiet

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04324b.htm

The Prayer of Simplicity

http://www.carmelite.com/saints/other/more_4.htm

The Prayer of Recollection

CP is not something I desire to practice or even bother to consider at any level because the practices incorporated within it are not Christian in origin. For further explanation of this people should view the thread in the ASk an Apologist forum where Fr Vincent Serpa responds to a question on CP.

CP for all it is worth has been discussed at length on this forum with no fruitful outcome but usually ending in discord and threads being closed.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[AlanFromWichita]

springbreeze:

CP for all it is worth has been discussed at length on this forum with no fruitful outcome but usually ending in discord and threads being closed.

Dear Teresa,

You are right. This has happened in the past. That is why I’m trying to agree to a non-combative position with Exporter.

With respect, I’d like to point out that centering prayer is every bit as Catholic as Eucharistic Adoration. This Catholic practice, in which I engaged at the advice of my conservative spiritual director, and practiced this devotion with a group that had full knowledge and consent of the popularly conservative Bishop Olmstead as well as his predecessor Gerber, has done a great deal to heal and help me, and quite frankly I believe I have a little more familiarity with it than anyone who posts against it, because so far every one of them is based on a false assumption or a weak assertion.

Frankly, I need to stand for the truth. If a bunch of people were on here trashing Eucharistic Adoration, then I would feel obligated to speak up in favor of this devotion that I love. The fact that many posters come on and say it’s a bad devotion or that it is evil in nature compel me to speak up because they do not know the truth about this practice.

Yes, I have read some AAA responses to the question about CP, and frankly I have been a bit surprised the responses but the way that forum works there is no dialog. I invite an apologist to this thread where we can look at the assertions that are made. Meanwhile I’ll let you know if I get a response from the Holy Father. Obviously he can’t answer all his email alone, but maybe someone in his staff will notice and answer?

Frankly if the thread gets shut down because I will not let go of the truth, and because others will not cease making the same incorrect assertions, then there isn’t a lot I can do. In a shouting match, I’m not going to be the loudest shouter.

For those who say I am indebted to SD because I’ve practiced it and “claim” to have found it beneficial so of course I’m biased, does that make me wrong? It makes me very aware when others mischaracterize my prayers, that’s for sure. I ask Catholics the same question. If someone says to you that you are biased because you believe in and benefit from Catholicism, will this be a reasonable indictment that you don’t know what Catholicism actually is?

I will try to be gentler, and I ask my detractors to keep it civil. Going back and forth is obviously a waste, but I have answered every objection so far that I’ve heard about CP and none of them are valid indictments.

This thread asked a simple question, and there is a simple answer. If we don’t want to discuss both sides of that question and do so in a mature fashion, then they might as well shut the thread down and everybody can just take their preconceived notions and repeat the following mantra, “CP evil. Must destroy.”

None of this I take personally anymore. That’s something I have learned in a few thousand posts since the last time we hashed this over. Maybe the discussion can be more productive but I need help from those who would be my “enemies” on this topic. When I answer something, please don’t just repeat the same things or go find another author that makes the same assertions but consider that I may actually have some clue what I’m talking about and if I am wrong, address the wrong and don’t just make another assertion to keep me buried in defensive mode.

I know I have not gotten into details on this thread, precisely because I don’t believe there’s a framework for discussion yet in terms of two sides communicating effectively. It’s still in the phase of demonizing and defending. If anyone wants to have a calm conversation about this than I am here. If we don’t want to take my opinions seriously, then just come right out and tell me that I am foolish and my arguments aren’t worth hearing and be done with it. Then we can all go home.

This is hilarious. I feel like the orthodox Catholic overrun by swarms of angry cafeteria Catholics and Protestant posters, who demonize what they don’t know and repeat invalid assertions as if they were a mantra. If the thread is shut down, let that be my final thought on the matter. If it is not, then if anybody is up for rational, intelligent discussion then let’s go. I’ll take the whole lot of you on.

Then when and if the Holy Father answers my email, I guess we’ll know definitively whether CP is Catholic or not. So far I didn’t get a response but he’s only had it a few hours. You can write to him yourself if you wish.

Alan

 

[system]

urquhart:

And I must ask, if you do not agree with the Cloud of Unknowing,
does that mean you also do not agree with the Rosary, the Jesus Prayer, the Liturgy of the Hours, or the Mass? For these all involve, to varying degrees, the use of repeated sacred words with the intent of drawing closer to God.

Let me rephrase this. I don’t agree with all of the CP supporters who believe that they are supported by the Cloud of the Unknowing. I love the Rosary, the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, the Liturgy of the Hours, and the Mass. I just don’t like how this book is used to defend their beliefs. I guess it may be because I don’t understand it, but I doubt it.

 

[system]

springbreeze:

Dear friends

CP for all it is worth has been discussed at length on this forum with no fruitful outcome but usually ending in discord and threads being closed.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

I would have to disagree. I had a question and people are responding. I do not think that anyone who is discussing a point of their faith with others can be unfruitful. I have learned a lot so far and have resources. No one here has had any discord and if we are not allowed to dissagree, then there is a problem. But thank you for the resources.

 

[DBT]

vicia3:

I don’t agree with all of the CP supporters who believe that they are supported by the Cloud of the Unknowing.

Back in the days when I had a spiritual director, he had some wonderfully simple advice with regard to my strong interest in Catholic mysticism: stick to the Saints and Doctors.

Personally, I enjoy The Cloud and don’t necessarily see it in opposition to the likes of St. John, St. Teresa etc. However, I will probably never see it as anything more than a secondary resource to the writings of the Doctors.

And I don’t think even the author of The Cloud ever intended his book to be any sort of stand-alone, one-stop guide to contemplation. It was meant to offer specific advice, to one individual, at a specific point in his prayer life. As such, he provides many partial truths . . . but not the whole truth.

And that, I think, is where my old spiritual director had it right - The Saints and Doctors have been given to us for a reason: they are safe, reliable and provide the whole truth.

 

[buzzcut]

Hi, Alan, I was a part of the previous threads on this subject. I agree with your #23. So many of those who criticize CP do so without having read the books. Their criticism is directed not at CP as it actually is, but at their own misconceptions of it. I have sometimes tried to encourage the critics to read and cite the primary texts, but without success.

The Holy Father, in the days when he was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, wrote the letter on ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION. This has been taken as referring to CP, among other things, though it doesn’t name CP explicitly. But in any case, what the letter calls for is simply “a thorough-going examination so as to avoid the danger of falling into syncretism” (para 12). In other words, Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter is far more nuanced than those who are quick to criticize will realize.

 

[DBT]

Hi Buzz -

There’s alot to the link you provided and I only had a few brief moments to scan through it. If you have the time, which sections do you see as referring to CP?

Thanks.
Dave.

 

[springbreeze]

QUOTE=vicia3]I would have to disagree. I had a question and people are responding. I do not think that anyone who is discussing a point of their faith with others can be unfruitful. I have learned a lot so far and have resources. No one here has had any discord and if we are not allowed to dissagree, then there is a problem. But thank you for the resources.

Dear friend

I can see why you would disagree. You have 42 posts which indicates you haven’t been on the forums for long and have not looked at all the previous threads on this topic, but I wish you every luck with this thread.

I agree with Puzzleannie. If you ask what other folks think, you’ll get what other folks think, but they may not all agree with you.

I think at best trying to convince someone to jump on the band wagon is like trying to change someone’s spirituality. I am Carmelite and it’s like trying to ask me to be another spirituality. It’s subtle but if it rubs against the grain of what is your spirituality then why should anyone enter into it? It may have certain benefits for certain souls, but God does use many broken and poor instruments to reach His children.

I think it is a poor road to tread to sit in different camps one living out one spirituality and another living out another and then viewing each as less. I think to set up straw men surely with only the intention to burn them does not aspire to understanding the other.

Good luck Alan with your letter to the Holy Father.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[AlanFromWichita]

springbreeze:

Good luck Alan with your letter to the Holy Father.

Thank you so much. I have no idea how he handles his email, but since he has an email link on his website, with the subject “Greetings” I figured that he considered greetings enough reason to write, and he has something he does other than just autodelete incoming messages.

If a staff member responds, that’s all I can hope for, statistically speaking. I really don’t care what they answer or even whether they answer my question. The idea that Benedict XVI even has an email address gives me a feeling of unity because email is how I connect with family and friends. It could be entirely a placebo as far as I’m concerned, and somehow it will be offered up as a prayer.

At least I figure it isn’t on autoanswer because it would have come back almost instantly.

Alan

 

[urquhart]

I understand that Pope Benedict receives tens of thousands of emails a day, and that they are all read, but they do not necessarily recieve an individual response.

I suppose that some junior priest or seminarian has the thankless task of reading them and deciding need a reply. Tough job - but he probably considers himself fortunate to be working so closely with the pope.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

urquhart:

I understand that Pope Benedict receives tens of thousands of emails a day, and that they are all read, but they do not necessarily recieve an individual response.

I suppose that some junior priest or seminarian has the thankless task of reading them and deciding need a reply. Tough job - but he probably considers himself fortunate to be working so closely with the pope.

Some of the greatest blessing I ever received involved the Third Diocesan Synod of Wichita KS, for which I was our parish rep. I also volunteered to do data entry which meant that I took several parishes from the diocese (I think there are 83 total, about) and distill their feedback forms into a database, for which a nun was importing into Microsoft Access and running scripts to find out which issues were common. The comments ranged from scathing criticism of the church to glowing praise, and suggestions on how to get youth involved.

Anyway when I type I really don’t think about it, but I can’t help but feel it affected me to have literally thousands of people’s most personal views about the Church flow through my hands. If a person listed ten concerns, I made ten database entries for that one form. There were no comments at all that went uncounted, except for two or three which had particular problems that needed immediate attention by Father Sherlock.

What a wonderful experience. I feel as if all the happy and sad thoughts of several parishes went through me as a simply allowed myself to be used as a tool in the processing chain of the Church’s Synod. My qualifications: I could type. Made me feel very pleased to be involved.

Alan

 

[Joysong]

Teresa:

I think at best trying to convince someone to jump on the band wagon is like trying to change someone’s spirituality.

Every now and then when we think this topic has been exhausted and discussed so thoroughly as to put it to rest, a new heart joins the forum and we begin the agonizing process of debate yet again.

What I notice is that the proponents of CP are so enthusiastic about the good it has brought them personally, that they try to convert other souls to this process, with good motives at heart. In order to convince the casual reader, these well-intentioned souls adopt excerpts from books like the Cloud and bit pieces from the church’s Doctors who wrote on mystical prayer, or citing the CCC. Everything they write makes perfect sense to them, since they have their CP “experience” which seems to match these excerpts. Eminent authors who disagree are disregarded and considered to be lacking in experience and correct judgment.

As Teresa wrote, however, these proponents are not spiritual directors who have been gifted with the discernment to recognize and correspond with the way the Holy Spirit is leading other persons in prayer. This is the most disturbing point of all in these threads, for this method may be good for some, but not good for all. This was noted in other threads, particularly for beginners or for those who may be advanced in prayer, as they will be hindered spiritually by attempting CP.

Once again, it might be good to point out that the author of the Cloud clearly cautioned that this method is only for those who have the special call from the Lord to practice it. Citing the book as a basis for CP promotion does a real disservice to the souls who have been redeemed by Christ and who need to follow their own path of prayer as the Shepherd leads them.

The lack of detachment and overt enthusiasm I perceive in the advocates of CP, alerts my spirit to its inherent dangers, for they do not seem to respect the various leadings of the Spirit.

Caveat emptor.

Carole

 

[Joysong]

Responding to an excellent point made by Dave (DBT) about love, I thought that parts of Chapter 25 of the Cloud would underscore the fruit of love that should be apparent in those who practice CP.

Nevertheless, through contemplation, he is so growing in practical goodness and love that, when he speaks or prays with his fellow christians at other times, the warmth of his love reaches out to them all, friend, enemy, stranger, and kin alike.
If there is any partiality at all, it is more likely to be toward his enemy than toward his friend.
But in the contemplative work itself, he does not distinguish between friend and enemy, brother and stranger. (snip) The point I am making is that in the work of contemplation, everyone is equally dear to him, since it is God alone who stirs him to love. He loves all men plainly and nakedly for God; and he loves them as he loves himself.

Though a person may claim to have the most exalted visions and mystical graces from God through using CP, yet demonstrates condescension and harsh sarcasm in dealing with others who disagree with him/her, we can only speculate as to what they are actually experiencing. (I’m remembering an incident of this type from another thread.)

http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Carole

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Joysong:

Responding to an excellent point made by Dave (DBT) about love, I thought that parts of Chapter 25 of the Cloud would underscore the fruit of love that should be apparent in those who practice CP.
Cloud:

Nevertheless, through contemplation, he is so growing in practical goodness and love that, when he speaks or prays with his fellow christians at other times, the warmth of his love reaches out to them all, friend, enemy, stranger, and kin alike.
If there is any partiality at all, it is more likely to be toward his enemy than toward his friend.

But in the contemplative work itself, he does not distinguish between friend and enemy, brother and stranger. (snip) The point I am making is that in the work of contemplation, everyone is equally dear to him, since it is God alone who stirs him to love. He loves all men plainly and nakedly for God; and he loves them as he loves himself.

I agree that is wonderful writing. Thank you for sharing it.

Though a person may claim to have the most exalted visions and mystical graces from God through using CP, yet demonstrates condescension and harsh sarcasm in dealing with others who disagree with him/her, we can only speculate as to what they are actually experiencing. (I’m remembering an incident of this type from another thread.)

http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Carole

Maybe that helps to explain why the Contemplative Outreach regional reb who exchanges regular email with me was interested in what went on in the forums but uninterested in responding at all. He said that it is up to the Holy Spirit to call them to this prayer form or not, and our job is to practice the prayer not to defend it.

Alan

 

[Joysong]

Alan:

Maybe that helps to explain why the Contemplative Outreach regional reb who exchanges regular email with me was interested in what went on in the forums but uninterested in responding at all. He said that it is up to the Holy Spirit to call them to this prayer form or not, and our job is to practice the prayer not to defend it.

Well said, Alan. No need to pound the table, huh? Your friend is very wise. Attraction is always more weighty than coersion. I have no doubt God has led you this way and that you have much to share with those who may likewise be called.

One paragraph stood out for me in Chapter 24 of the Cloud:

Indeed, the very heart of this work is nothing else but a naked intent toward God for His own sake. I call it a naked intent because it is utterly disinterested. In this work, the perfect artisan does not seek personal gain or exemption from suffering. He desires only God and Him alone. He is so fascinated by the God he loves and so concerned that His will be done on earth that he neither notices nor cares about his own ease or anxiety. This is why, I believe, that in this work, God is really loved perfectly and for His own sake.

We see that it is not exclusively necessary for a sacred word or mantra, but merely a holy, loving glance of intent.

Reading the chapter with earnest examine will demonstrate what the author intended as a prerequisite for the practice (and wrote of elsewhere), and what Dave alluded to when he spoke about the preliminary necessity of advancement in virtue. Humble beginnings, but so very necessary.

And the last words of the quote, not caring about anxiety, adds weight to your friend’s wisdom. I suppose this is what I noted from other threads where the poster is not disinterested, but overly anxious to gain followers, independent of God’s leading, and independent of the soul’s real readiness to pray in this manner.

Warm regards,
Carole

 

[Joysong]

At the risk of being repetitive from other threads on this subject, I thought it might help other newcomers to take a peek at the author of the Cloud’s real intent, to differentiate it from what I understand is being taught in his name.

Chapters 27-28 states, “If you ask who should take up contemplation, I would reply: all those who have sincerely forsaken the world and who have set aside the concerns of the active life.
If you ask me when a person should begin the contemplative work, I would answer: not until he has first purified his conscience of all particular sins in the Sacrament of Penance as the Church prescribes.”

As I understand it, those who advocate the practice of CP neglect to state this author’s admonition to purity of conscience, which is also taught by Sts. Teresa and John of the Cross. It has been indiscriminately promoted as a technique to be practiced by anyone whomsoever, simply as a better prayer form than others, and one which may ultimately bring the person into an exalted state of union with God.

This is my primary objection, as I mentioned elsewhere. CP has even been taught to grade school children without parental knowledge or consent, without consideration of their age or spiritual readiness — although these teachers are innocently ignorant of the harm it may cause, solely due to the good they themselves may have experienced.

In this respect, Puzzleannie spoke the truth … that CP is not what the Cloud teaches, unless the whole of the author’s mind and writing is considered. CP “may” have value for certain persons if God has prepared them to advance in prayer, and if there are accompanying signs giving them assurance that this is His leading.

It is sad that this prayer form is so misunderstood, for it can be legitimately adopted under certain circumstances, had the bad press not overshadowed it. However, I stand firm with others, that it should not be widely disseminated to each and every person as a lawful and quick technique to infused contemplation.

http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Carole

 

[AlanFromWichita]

The Cloud is just so good all the way along. This is from a lousy translation but I lost my book with the good translation I like. It’s public domain, anyway, so I’m not complaining.

This is from the end of Chapter 7, and shows how the “sacred word” is to be used. Quite a bit different than a mantra, which is in itself a thought. Thoughts, ever so subtle, distract our minds from the stillness that leads us into the Cloud, according to my personal reaction. (I say that to take personal authority which means “authorship” for my statements not to avoid it. :yup: )
Cloud Chapter 7:

And if thee list have this intent lapped and folden in one word, for thou shouldest have better hold thereupon, take thee but a little word of one syllable: for so it is better than of two, for ever the shorter it is the better it accordeth with the work of the Spirit. And such a word is this word GOD or this word LOVE. Choose thee whether thou wilt, or another; as thee list, which that thee liketh best of one syllable. And fasten this word to thine heart, so that it never go thence for thing that befalleth.

This word shall be thy shield and thy spear, whether thou ridest on peace or on war. With this word, thou shalt beat on this cloud and this darkness above thee. With this word, thou shall smite down all manner of thought under the cloud of forgetting. Insomuch, that if any thought press upon thee to ask thee what thou wouldest have, answer them with no more words but with this one word. And if he proffer thee of his great clergy to expound thee that word and to tell thee the conditions of that word, say him: That thou wilt have it all whole, and not broken nor undone. And if thou wilt hold thee fast on this purpose, be thou sure, he will no while abide. And why? For that thou wilt not let him feed him on such sweet meditations of God touched before.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Joysong:

It is sad that this prayer form is so misunderstood, for it can be legitimately adopted under certain circumstances, had the bad press not overshadowed it. However, I stand firm with others, that it should not be widely disseminated to each and every person as a lawful and quick technique to infused contemplation.

Thank you. :clapping:

 

[Joysong]

Dear Alan,

I think it is so beautiful the way God is enlightening this discussion, for one worthy idea leads to the next. As I referred to your link, I saw another paragraph that might be helpful. (From my translationl)
Chapter 7:

… in fact, anyone who expects to advance without having meditated often on his own sinfulness, the Passion of Christ, and the kindness, goodness, and dignity of God, will most certainly go astray and fail in his purpose.

But a person who has long meditated on these things, must eventually leave them behind beneath a cloud of forgetting if he hopes to pierce the cloud of unknowing that lies between him and God. So whenever you feel drawn by grace to the contemplataive work and are determined to do it, simply raise your heart to God with a gentle stirring of love. Think only of God, the God who created you, redeemed you, and guided you to this work. Allow no other idea about God to enter your mind. Yet even this is too much. A naked intent toward God, the desire for Him alone, is enough.

This confirms that beginners who have not prepared the way for these gentle stirrings of love toward God through much meditation (through which love expands and grows), will find it almost impossible to remain in His holy presence with naked intent and desire for Him alone (using a sacred word or no sacred word!). And as the author said, he will most certainly go astray and fail.

But for one who is advanced, to whom St. John addresses his treatise concerning the safe time to abandon meditation, this is to safely enter the door for which these years of meditation were but a preparation.

Praise God for His goodness in guiding us all to more understanding!

http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Carole