Centering Prayer

[AlanFromWichita]

YinYangMom:

I, myself, am not interested in exploring ‘centering prayer’, but have some friends who do - that’s why I wanted to look up the Vatican reference to that ‘new’ approach.

That’s perfectly fine if you don’t want to pursue any particular form of prayer, but must you keep insisting it has anything to do with “new” at all? I tried to let you off the hook on this one but you got right back on it.

Again, as those who actually know about centering prayer and contemplative prayer have posted, there is nothing new about any of this. Contemplation has been around since Jesus if not before, and “centering prayer” as a method is completely based on a tradition that is at least 600 years old. Lectio Divina has been practiced for centuries by religious.

As for why the church doesn’t teach it, I think that’s explained rather well in that document I referenced - as it was written specifically for the Bishops for directing them in how to approach these concepts with their fold.

“These concepts?” Yikes! Please tell me you’re not serious. Have you been paying any attention to the informed posters on this thread? Can anybody else explain to me how contemplative prayer and/or centering prayer has anything to do with this document? vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

You are welcome to pray as you like or to avoid whatever forms of prayer you don’t like. My concern is you are living in fear. One time you associated two things in your mind and you can’t let it go. Of course I am not judging you,

It seems the safest approach to learning how to pray meditatively and contemplatively is to do so with an experienced, authorized spiritual director - not through prayer groups or on one’s own.

I have no problem with that. As I have maintained all along, I suggest you consult your spiritual director if you have one, because as you can read for yourself in CCC 2700-2719, contemplative prayer is really what other forms of prayer should lead to, so if not centering prayer, then you should look into other ways you might achieve contemplative prayer. If you’re content with beginning forms of prayer for now, that’s up to you.

When you say “safest” I agree that one can go astray by starting into questionable or weird practices that a few renegades come up with on their own. In the case of centering prayer, I was suggesting you hook up with Contemplative Outreach, an international, sound organization that the Vatican is fully aware of and whose teachers are qualified and certified. I have notified our local CO representative of this thread and invited them to check it out so maybe they can help you beyond what I can. I don’t want to tell you that you should do something you think is scary, but please don’t dissuade other Catholics from realizing a full prayer life. Really, the water is fine.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

YinYangMom:

I, myself, am not interested in exploring ‘centering prayer’, but have some friends who do - that’s why I wanted to look up the Vatican reference to that ‘new’ approach.

That’s perfectly fine if you don’t want to pursue any particular form of prayer, but must you keep insisting it has anything to do with “new” at all? I tried to let you off the hook on this one but you got right back on it.

Again, as those who actually know about centering prayer and contemplative prayer have posted, there is nothing new about any of this. Contemplation has been around since Jesus if not before, and “centering prayer” as a method is completely based on a tradition that is at least 600 years old. Lectio Divina has been practiced for centuries by religious.

As for why the church doesn’t teach it, I think that’s explained rather well in that document I referenced - as it was written specifically for the Bishops for directing them in how to approach these concepts with their fold.

“These concepts?” Yikes! Please tell me you’re not serious. Have you been paying any attention to the informed posters on this thread? Can anybody else explain to me how contemplative prayer and/or centering prayer has anything to do with this document? vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

You are welcome to pray as you like or to avoid whatever forms of prayer you don’t like. My concern is you are living in fear. One time you associated two things in your mind and you can’t let it go. Of course I’m not judging you, but that’s what it looks like from here.

It seems the safest approach to learning how to pray meditatively and contemplatively is to do so with an experienced, authorized spiritual director - not through prayer groups or on one’s own.

I have no problem with that. As I have maintained all along, I suggest you consult your spiritual director if you have one, because as you can read for yourself in CCC 2700-2719, contemplative prayer is really what other forms of prayer should lead to, so if not centering prayer, then you should look into other ways you might achieve contemplative prayer. If you’re content with beginning forms of prayer for now, that’s up to you.

When you say “safest” I agree that one can go astray by starting into questionable or weird practices that a few renegades come up with on their own. In the case of centering prayer, I was suggesting you hook up with Contemplative Outreach, an international, sound organization that the Vatican is fully aware of and whose teachers are qualified and certified. I have notified our local CO representative of this thread and invited them to check it out so maybe they can help you beyond what I can. I don’t want to tell you that you should do something you think is scary, but please don’t dissuade other Catholics from realizing a full prayer life. Really, the water is fine.

Alan

 

[DBT]

Perhaps it is simply human nature to be skeptical of things perceived as “new”. I’ve noticed in threads about Opus Dei and the current one on the Legionaires Of Christ that there tends to be a lot of very strong feelings . . . just as there are on the Centering Prayer threads. Mostly these feelings seem to have to do with comfort levels with “newness.”

The ironic thing is there is very little “new” with any of this. While I’m not very familiar with Opus Dei and the other “new” orders, my general impression is that they are orthodox and successors to a very old tradition. I’m reminded of the fact that many of the older orders (Franciscians, Carmelites etc) faced similiar criticisms when just starting out. Likewise, Centering Prayer is a newer incarnation of a very old, actually ancient, lineage.

Just a thought . . .

 

[LaVada]

And Just another thought,
Spend the “centering-time” with our Lord truly Present in the Blessed Sacrament. When that time is spent, do it again.
It is interesting that many use the terms “informed”, “not new”, meditation, contemplation, he’s right, she’s right, he’s afraid, and on and on ad infinitum. Show me a Saint that didn’t spend all available free time before The Blessed Sacrament and some of us will try to find out “how” they became Saints. Tried and true - Adoration of our Lord in the Most Holy Eucharist.Eventually one will get “quiet”. Contemplation is not learned it is a “gift” but as in most graces, one must be disposed.
Mary, Mother of the Eucharist, pray for us.
Peace on earth to men of good will.
LaVada

 

[AlanFromWichita]

LaVada:

And Just another thought,
Spend the “centering-time” with our Lord truly Present in the Blessed Sacrament. When that time is spent, do it again.
It is interesting that many use the terms “informed”, “not new”, meditation, contemplation, he’s right, she’s right, he’s afraid, and on and on ad infinitum. Show me a Saint that didn’t spend all available free time before The Blessed Sacrament and some of us will try to find out “how” they became Saints. Tried and true - Adoration of our Lord in the Most Holy Eucharist.Eventually one will get “quiet”. Contemplation is not learned it is a “gift” but as in most graces, one must be disposed.
Mary, Mother of the Eucharist, pray for us.
Peace on earth to men of good will.
LaVada

Dear LaVada,

You make a good point. Spending time in Eucharistic Adoration is an excellent way to invite contemplation, which you rightly describe as a “gift.” Whether one uses Centering prayer, Lectio Divina, or some other method (or even no method at all!) to dispose oneself to receive this gift doesn’t matter. Some work better for some people, some for others. You are right that arguing over which method is “better” than another.

While it is true that contemplation itself is not learned, I am grateful to the Saints for the teachings they provided so that the traditions and practices such as Lectio and CP may be handed down and understood. It was in the teachings of those practices that I learned about the spiritual journey and first learned to invite contemplation. Before then, I was always busy during Adoration hour reading, saying the rosary, singing and doing other things. Although I still do those other things, like you, I do take time to sit and be still. At first I followed the simple “procedure” of CP, but as time went on, I started getting used to the feeling of inner silence and now, like you, I often just sit quietly with no method and no thoughts at all. It is wonderful, and is very healing after a busy day in the world.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

LaVada:

And Just another thought,
Spend the “centering-time” with our Lord truly Present in the Blessed Sacrament. When that time is spent, do it again.
It is interesting that many use the terms “informed”, “not new”, meditation, contemplation, he’s right, she’s right, he’s afraid, and on and on ad infinitum. Show me a Saint that didn’t spend all available free time before The Blessed Sacrament and some of us will try to find out “how” they became Saints. Tried and true - Adoration of our Lord in the Most Holy Eucharist.Eventually one will get “quiet”. Contemplation is not learned it is a “gift” but as in most graces, one must be disposed.
Mary, Mother of the Eucharist, pray for us.
Peace on earth to men of good will.
LaVada

Dear LaVada,

You make a good point. Spending time in Eucharistic Adoration is an excellent way to invite contemplation, which you rightly describe as a “gift.” Whether one uses Centering prayer, Lectio Divina, or some other method (or even no method at all!) to dispose oneself to receive this gift doesn’t matter. Some work better for some people, some for others. You are right that arguing over which method is “better” than another can be distracting.

While it is true that contemplation itself is not learned, I am grateful to the Saints for the teachings they provided so that the traditions and practices such as Lectio and CP may be handed down and understood. It was in the teachings of those practices that I learned about the spiritual journey and first learned to invite contemplation. Before then, I was always busy during Adoration hour reading, saying the rosary, singing and doing other things. Although I still do those other things, like you, I do take time to sit and be still. At first I followed the simple “procedure” of CP, but as time went on, I started getting used to the feeling of inner silence and now, like you, I often just sit quietly with no method and no thoughts at all. It is wonderful, and is very healing after a busy day in the world.

Alan

 

[LaVada]

Alan: The "term like you " makes me very nervous!!! Also the “term” sitting with “no thoughts” Don’t assume from my posts anything more than what is advisable for us ordinary run of the mill Catholics… Too many Catholics are delving into things that are not appropriate for their abilities OR state in life. My ONLY point was that the Saints knew “where” our source of strength as Catholics is, i.e. The Most Blessed Sacrament either individually before the Tabernacle or if possible before our Lord exposed for public Adoration. One can read books or “forums” and assume there is a better-shorter way to holiness than the drudgery of plain every day good ole hard work of persistant/consistant prayer. Also one “must” check with a Confessor who knows the individual before undertaking extra or “unusual” types of prayer. A word to the wise is sufficient.
Mary, Seat of Wisdom, pray for us.
Peace on earth to men of good will.
LaVada
.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

LaVada:

Alan: The "term like you " makes me very nervous!!! Also the “term” sitting with “no thoughts” Don’t assume from my posts anything more than what is advisable for us ordinary run of the mill Catholics… Too many Catholics are delving into things that are not appropriate for their abilities OR state in life. My ONLY point was that the Saints knew “where” our source of strength as Catholics is, i.e. The Most Blessed Sacrament either individually before the Tabernacle or if possible before our Lord exposed for public Adoration. One can read books or “forums” and assume there is a better-shorter way to holiness than the drudgery of plain every day good ole hard work of persistant/consistant prayer. Also one “must” check with a Confessor who knows the individual before undertaking extra or “unusual” types of prayer. A word to the wise is sufficient.
Mary, Seat of Wisdom, pray for us.
Peace on earth to men of good will.
LaVada
.

Dear LaVada,

Please accept my apologies. When you spoke of “getting quiet” and referenced “contemplation” in the same context as Adoration, I suppose I made the logical jump that you were saying you seek “inner silence” as a way to invite the Lord’s presence in your heart, in the presence of the Eucharist. “Inner silence” is exactly the goal of CP and other prayer forms because that is truly our “inner room” Jesus spoke of where we should enter to pray, and achieving such silence is an invitation to the Lord’s presence, which itself is the gift of “contemplation.”

After several years of practicing contemplative prayer and studying the spiritual journey, I tend to get excited when I see other Catholics hinting around at what sounds a bit like the same thing, and I guess I made the false assumption that we were sharing the same vocabulary. The saints have written quite a bit about contemplative prayer forms and the spiritual journey, so I didn’t realize you were restricting you comments to their love for the Eucharist.

Either way, I think we agree that Eucharistic Adoration is a good thing. Now, if I understand you correctly by your comment that “eventually one will get quiet” may I also assume that you are saying you do not need to perform any particular active prayer but that your presence in itself is a wonderful prayer?

As far as “ordinary run-of-the-mill Catholics,” all I can say is that Vatican II stressed that holiness is for everyone. Reading the CCC 2700-2719 as we’ve talked about before, show how vocal and meditative prayers are introductory to contemplative prayer. Ordinary Catholics are allowed and encouraged to this blessing, although as I lamented before, diocesan priests are often not very familiar with contemplative forms so sometimes they have to do a little research themselves. As far as “unusual” types of prayer, I hope you’re not suggesting, that centering prayer or contemplative prayer are somehow related to the astrological “new age” movement? Or are you? If you are, then – your last post notwithstanding – you might want to become informed on these wonderful ways of getting closer to God. Or not.

Alan

 

[whosebob]

I personally know a number of people who practice and claim spiritual enrichment through Centering Prayer.

On the other hand, a spiritual master and writer that I trust, Fr. Thomas Dubay, has changed his opinion on Centering Prayer from “cautious but open” to “negative.” As he explains in several of his books, he doesn’t think CP is intrinsically bad, but thinks that for beginners, intermediates and those advanced in the life of Christian Prayer, there are almost always prayer methods that are to be preferred over CP. He does state that ocassionally it will be fruitful for someone who is in the “intermediate” stages of contemplative spirituality to engage in Centering Prayer or something like it, but only at the express recommendation and discretion of his/her spiritual adviser.

For an introduction to Lectio Divina, I recommend the following essay posted on my website (I didn’t write it, but found it quite beneficial in my spritual journey) . . .

The Practice of Lectio Divina .

In the Heart of Jesus and Mary.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

whosebob:

On the other hand, a spiritual master and writer that I trust, Fr. Thomas Dubay, has changed his opinion on Centering Prayer from “cautious but open” to “negative.” As he explains in several of his books, he doesn’t think CP is intrinsically bad, but thinks that for beginners, intermediates and those advanced in the life of Christian Prayer, there are almost always prayer methods that are to be preferred over CP. He does state that ocassionally it will be fruitful for someone who is in the “intermediate” stages of contemplative spirituality to engage in Centering Prayer or something like it, but only at the express recommendation and discretion of his/her spiritual adviser.

Dear whosebob,

I’m curious as to his reasoning. That other methods “are to be preferred” sounds pretty subjective to me. If he doesn’t use CP himself that’s fine, but why he would dissuade someone from following this practice I don’t have a clue. There is nothing scary or dangerous about it, any more than doing the rosary. I checked out some web sites about him but didn’t see anything about it. Do you have a reference or more information as to why he would say this?

As for Lectio Divina that you are advocating, that’s good stuff too. It’s different than CP on the surface, and for Catholics who are not used to silent prayer Lectio may be a good waqy for them to “tiptoe” into the water. Living water, that is. Actually, the fourth stage of Lectio is passive, like CP, and invites contemplation. One prayer group I sometimes attend on Wendesday nights at the Spiritual Life Center for our diocese, consists of a 20 minute centering prayer, followed by 20 minutes of watching a videotape, followed by Lectio Divina, then a sharing session.

Alan

 

[YinYangMom]

AlanFromWichita:

That’s perfectly fine if you don’t want to pursue any particular form of prayer, but must you keep insisting it has anything to do with “new” at all? I tried to let you off the hook on this one but you got right back on it.

Again, as those who actually know about centering prayer and contemplative prayer have posted, there is nothing new about any of this. Contemplation has been around since Jesus if not before, and “centering prayer” as a method is completely based on a tradition that is at least 600 years old. Lectio Divina has been practiced for centuries by religious.
“These concepts?” Yikes! Please tell me you’re not serious. Have you been paying any attention to the informed posters on this thread? Can anybody else explain to me how contemplative prayer and/or centering prayer has anything to do with this document? vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

You are welcome to pray as you like or to avoid whatever forms of prayer you don’t like. My concern is you are living in fear. One time you associated two things in your mind and you can’t let it go. Of course I’m not judging you, but that’s what it looks like from here.
I have no problem with that. As I have maintained all along, I suggest you consult your spiritual director if you have one, because as you can read for yourself in CCC 2700-2719, contemplative prayer is really what other forms of prayer should lead to, so if not centering prayer, then you should look into other ways you might achieve contemplative prayer. If you’re content with beginning forms of prayer for now, that’s up to you.

When you say “safest” I agree that one can go astray by starting into questionable or weird practices that a few renegades come up with on their own. In the case of centering prayer, I was suggesting you hook up with Contemplative Outreach, an international, sound organization that the Vatican is fully aware of and whose teachers are qualified and certified. I have notified our local CO representative of this thread and invited them to check it out so maybe they can help you beyond what I can. I don’t want to tell you that you should do something you think is scary, but please don’t dissuade other Catholics from realizing a full prayer life. Really, the water is fine.

Alan

You didn’t read the paper, did you? I didn’t come up with any of the terms or concepts. I’m not the one who puts these other forms of prayer under the category of “new age”. The bishops did that. Just read it before you attack me as if I’m passing any of this stuff as my own. I was simply summarizing as concisely as possible. I’m not even taking a position on centering prayer being good or not.

The originator of the thread asked about it so I referred them to the Vatican document which addresses to the bishops the concepts behind the rise in popularity of these approaches with in their dioceses and how they should respond to parishioners who come to them with questions. Because the paper is available online from the Vatican all followers can now read for themselves the directives the bishops were given. This seemed an appropriate thread to point the originator in that direction.

It seems like you have an issue with the bishops’ positions, since they aren’t mine.

 

[whosebob]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear whosebob,

I’m curious as to his reasoning. That other methods “are to be preferred” sounds pretty subjective to me. If he doesn’t use CP himself that’s fine, but why he would dissuade someone from following this practice I don’t have a clue. There is nothing scary or dangerous about it, any more than doing the rosary

Dear Alan,

I’m quite certain that I’ve rubbed your feathers the wrong way with my post; if I’ve directly offended you, I apologize, as I didn’t and don’t mean to. You seem to be genuinely concerned with the readers here having a true understanding of Centering Prayer, Lectio, etc. – all leading to growth in the contemplative dimension of one’s Christian spirituality. As far as that goes, I’m with you all the way.

Fr. Dubay has written many books – the ones that deal most directly and most popularly with contemplative spirituality are: (1) Fire Within, (2) Seeking Spiritual Direction, and (3) Prayer Primer: Igniting a Fire Within. The books were written by him, in that order, over a number of years. His comments on Centering Prayer change from cautious to more cautious to negative from one book to the next.

Probably the best thing to do is read his books for yourself (though his comments on CP probably make up about 0.01% of the material in the books) – Dubay is a real master and a good writer in the realm of contemplative spirituality. His emphasis is on Carmelite spirituality but he is not himself a Carmelite; he is a Marist priest. You won’t be disappointed in the purchase or the time taken to check them out at the library – I guarantee that you’ll have Fire Within read-through multiple times and well-worn over the next few years.

He has also done several video series, aired originally on EWTN (and now available for purchase through their online catalogue, I think). Also, the audio portion of those programs can be downloaded from EWTN.com for free (you will need to install RealPlayer)! Go to the following webpage . . .

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/intro.asp

, and then search for keyword “dubay” (don’t type the quotes) in either the “series search” or “program search” [they’ll be more organized by going through “series search,” but you may not get returned in the results every program he’s done on EWTN over the years – do some cross-comparison in the search results]. Everything he’s produced is well worth listening to.

The biggest problem with CP, I think (and I know I’m not alone), is the deep connection between the Centering Prayer movement and Thomas Keating and Basil Pennington. And the biggest problem with those two figures is their link to dissident and/or heterodox groups, conferences, etc. in the Church in the last two decades.

Now, I’m sure they had and have some good things to say, and have made some real contributions to the movement that is helping bring contemplative spirituality to the broader public. But they seem to bring a lot of “baggage” with them that is not compatible with orthodox Catholic Christianity.

I hope this helps. Again, no offense intended – I, like you, am interested in spreading the truth and only the truth.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

YinYangMom:

You didn’t read the paper, did you? I didn’t come up with any of the terms or concepts. I’m not the one who puts these other forms of prayer under the category of “new age”. The bishops did that. Just read it before you attack me as if I’m passing any of this stuff as my own. I was simply summarizing as concisely as possible. I’m not even taking a position on centering prayer being good or not.

The originator of the thread asked about it so I referred them to the Vatican document which addresses to the bishops the concepts behind the rise in popularity of these approaches with in their dioceses and how they should respond to parishioners who come to them with questions. Because the paper is available online from the Vatican all followers can now read for themselves the directives the bishops were given. This seemed an appropriate thread to point the originator in that direction.

It seems like you have an issue with the bishops’ positions, since they aren’t mine.

Dear YinYangMom,

In fact, I did read the paper. I have no problem with the paper, or the bishops’ positions. What I still don’t understand is your insistence that the paper has anything at all to do with legitimate, traditionally Catholic contemplative prayer techniques or with centering prayer as one of its forms. The paper you referenced is really very good and I thank you for calling it to my attention, because it educated me in the term “new age” that I’ve heard bandied about but didn’t understand. Reading the paper, however, is precisely what convinced me that these bishops are not talking about “these forms of prayer” which is under discussion in this thread.

The originator of the thread asked about centering prayer. The Vatican document you referenced, although excellent, does not address “centering prayer” unless by “these approaches with in their dioceses” you mean “something I haven’t heard of before.” At the outset, you said that your connection between CP and the Vatican document was based on “since it was described to me as a form of meditation it caught my attention because I’ve been leery of the ‘new age’ concept of connecting to your inner god, yada yada.”

It “sounded like meditation” so it must be new age? I appreciate your initial concern but the CCC clearly teaches that prayers of meditation (of which the Rosary would most likely be included) and the deeper prayer forms of contemplation are good, not bad. Now, are there unauthorized forms which are dangerous? You bet; just read the paper you brought to the table. Once having read it, and having knowledge of contemplative prayer and at least Lectio Divina and CP, I can safely say that they are most decidedly NOT “new age.” You have yet to even make a specific claim about Lectio or CP, much less credibly demonstrate, how they have anything to do with “new age” at all. Therefore I don’t understand your claim that:

I’m not the one who puts these other forms of prayer under the category of “new age”.

There’s where the logic breaks down. Clearly you are, aren’t you? Can you point to even one item in the 58-page document where it even hints about Lectio, CP or any practices that bear any resemblance to them?

Please don’t think I am “attacking you” based on my ignorance of the material you graciously asked me to consider. I am sorry for the tone I took a couple letters back, because I admit here and to all that it was disrespectful. However, unless you show me one credible connection between the article and CP I simply cannot allow this wonderful tradition to be cast into the same category as genuinely questionable practices because of the way “it was described to you.”

There’s a lot of weird stuff going on in the world, as the article shows what with astrology taking precedence over sound teachings and all. It pays to be cautious. There is a difference between being cautious and living in fear.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

whosebob:

Dear Alan,

I’m quite certain that I’ve rubbed your feathers the wrong way with my post; if I’ve directly offended you, I apologize, as I didn’t and don’t mean to. You seem to be genuinely concerned with the readers here having a true understanding of Centering Prayer, Lectio, etc. – all leading to growth in the contemplative dimension of one’s Christian spirituality. As far as that goes, I’m with you all the way.

Dear whosebob,

Thank you for your concern, and for recognizing that I am after the truth here and nothing else. I didn’t take offense or see that you personally were taking potshots at CP, just reporting that Dubay didn’t like it. I have heard of Dubay, and may even have read his book on spiritual direction sometime back, but I was curious about the details of why he would have a “negative” outlook on CP because other forms were preferable. This seemed like quite a blanket statement, considering the myriad methods of prayer and devotions available to any given individual. Frankly, I’d never heard of a statement that one form of prayer was categorically “preferable” over another and I was caught by surprise.

Probably the best thing to do is read his books for yourself (though his comments on CP probably make up about 0.01% of the material in the books) – Dubay is a real master and a good writer in the realm of contemplative spirituality. His emphasis is on Carmelite spirituality but he is not himself a Carmelite; he is a Marist priest. You won’t be disappointed in the purchase or the time taken to check them out at the library – I guarantee that you’ll have Fire Within read-through multiple times and well-worn over the next few years.

Thanks; I might do that. My reading list is pretty long, though, and my reading rate is slow so it may not be right away.

He has also done several video series, aired originally on EWTN (and now available for purchase through their online catalogue, I think). Also, the audio portion of those programs can be downloaded from EWTN.com for free (you will need to install RealPlayer)! Go to the following webpage . . .

 [ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/intro.asp](http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/intro.asp)

, and then search for keyword “dubay” (don’t type the quotes) in either the “series search” or “program search” [they’ll be more organized by going through “series search,” but you may not get returned in the results every program he’s done on EWTN over the years – do some cross-comparison in the search results]. Everything he’s produced is well worth listening to.
As I’m typing this I’m listening to “Teresa and Contemplation.” Thank you.

The biggest problem with CP, I think (and I know I’m not alone), is the deep connection between the Centering Prayer movement and Thomas Keating and Basil Pennington. And the biggest problem with those two figures is their link to dissident and/or heterodox groups, conferences, etc. in the Church in the last two decades.

I have heard Keating say things on his tapes that I have not heard from the pulpit, but I’ve found that there are a lot of things I don’t hear from the pulpit so I wasn’t too worried about it. Actually I found it very energizing to me and refreshing to hear “expanded” points of view compared to the ones I hear ad nauseum, which may mean that I’m not “orthodox” in my approach.

The centering prayer technique itself is very closely modeled after the prayer form in “The Cloud of the Unknowing” so Keating didn’t really make it up; he just put it in a package to sell it to people with busy lives.

Hey, I’m hearing Dubay explain the similarities and differences between Christian contemplation and Zen practices. This is very interesting stuff.

Alan

 

[fraggle]

if your purpose and method of Centering Prayer is Christ-centric, it does not conflict with Catholicism

if it is not, and is merely emptying yourself to attain some lofty goal of contemplation and union with God without remaining in Catholic guidelines, then you’re getting yourself into a serious problem.

but to dismiss Centering Prayer all together is the same thing as when certain not-so-good, inexperienced spiritual directors that St. Teresa of Avila had said that her “mental prayer” was evil. the fear is understandable…you don’t want to run into the heresy of quietism, but to rest quietly in God, “basking in His presence,” with a holy word said every now and then to “distract” you from your worldly distractions is legit prayer too.

and if it beneficial for you, do contemplative prayer. you don’t have to seek the goal of “passive” or “infused” contemplation, which only God can give anyway, in order to do it. even St. Teresa of Avila made the distinction between “acquired contemplation” (what humans do to rest in God) and “infused contemplation” (what God does for us to rest in Him) contemplative orders would consist of only a few souls gifted with infused contemplation if it were truly not legit to do methods of active/acquired contemplation. lectio divina is a method of active contemplation too!

a group of Catholics who work very hard in keeping up a purpose and method of Centering Prayer that is Christ-centric are those of the Carmelite Institute:

www.carmeliteinstitute.org

they stress that Centering Prayer is only one method of many to help people contemplate God. it should be used as an end, but as a means.

heck, you can still pray the rosary as a means to contemplative prayer!

it can be confusing when different saints, spiritual directors, and authors use different terms for contemplation and have different meanings of contemplation. i think that’s where some of the misunderstanding occurs.

a nice little book on the subject is “How to Pray Always” by Raoul Plus, S.J.

a much longer book is “Ways of Mental Prayer” by a Cistercian father.

 

[YinYangMom]

AlanFromWichita:

What I still don’t understand is your insistence that the paper has anything at all to do with legitimate, traditionally Catholic contemplative prayer techniques or with centering prayer as one of its forms.

I understand now, thanks for the clarification. I was not speaking against contemplative prayer or Lectio Divina. The paper mentioned legitimate contemplative Christian prayer so I wasn’t including ‘contemplative’ prayer in the same category as Centering Prayer, and I never challenged you on LD since I was in no position to. You presumed I was addressing all three forms when I was focusing only on Centering Prayer.

The originator of the thread asked about centering prayer. The Vatican document you referenced, although excellent, does not address “centering prayer” unless by “these approaches with in their dioceses” you mean “something I haven’t heard of before.”

No, it wasn’t ‘something I haven’t heard of before’ which brings centering prayer to mind within the paper. It was that part of section 4:
… many of the meditation techniques now used are not prayer. They are often a good preparation for prayer, but no more, even if they lead to a more pleasant state of mind or bodily comfort. The achievement of silence can confront us with emptiness, rather than the silence of contemplating the beloved. It is also true that techniques for going deeper into one’s own soul are ultimately an appeal to one’s own ability to reach the divine, or even to become divine: if they forget God’s search for the human heart they are still not Christian prayer.

At the outset, you said that your connection between CP and the Vatican document was based on “since it was described to me as a form of meditation it caught my attention because I’ve been leery of the ‘new age’ concept of connecting to your inner god, yada yada.”
Exactly. My ‘introduction’ to Catholic centering prayer came from parishioners of a neighboring parish who were saying their church has scheduled centering prayer sessions. When I asked them to explain CP the way they described it sounded a lot like the Document paragraph I noted above, that’s where I drew the conclusion between the two. They spoke about ‘emptying their minds completely in order to be receptive to connecting with Christ.’ Now, if the priest leading the sessions is well trained then that’s great, but how does one tell if the priest is well trained and if the people in the room are actually doing the steps correctly? It seemed risky to me, based on the bishops’ paper, to do this in a group setting at the risk of one or more followers misunderstanding the practice.

Please don’t think I am “attacking you” based on my ignorance of the material you graciously asked me to consider. I am sorry for the tone I took a couple letters back, because I admit here and to all that it was disrespectful.
Apology accepted. It appears you were reading more into my posts than I intended. I repeat that I am not saying centering prayer is good or bad. I don’t know one way or another, but it’s possible the originator of this post heard about Centering Prayer as I did, so we don’t know if he/she is getting the ‘real’ picture. You and some other here are making necessary distinctions that are very important to make sure he/she gets the truth about what ‘real’ centering prayer is/should be. I offered the bishops’ paper on New Age to address the underlying concerns the Church has about some of the things parishioners are being introduced to.

Approach with caution seems to be the bottom line, and I believe we are in agreement there. It seems when taught/learned correctly centering prayer can be beneficial. If not, one risks being led astray, no?

 

[asquared]

10 years ago I could not locate an in print version of the Cloud of Unknowing, by an anonymous 14th century English mystic, and my first copy was an old, long out of print version in archaic English. Now there are at least a dozen versions, with forewords and introductions that can be extremely bizarre, many linking it to New Age spiritualities derived from Zen, yoga etc. so be extremely careful.

The book is a guide to contemplative prayer, and it begins with a caution to humility and warns the reader “you are not to read it, write or speak of it, nor allow another to do so, unless you really believe that he is aperson deeply committed to follow Christ perfectly.” It cautions not to read it quickly, superfcially, or partially, and that is meant only for one who has progressed on the path of virtue and active life in Christ who have been prepared to enter the contemplative, “those who feel the mysterious action of the Spirit in their inmost being stirring themselves to love”.

The cautions of this author, as of the other masters of contemplation, St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa, are that it is not state that can be conjured up by our actions and rituals, it is a gift, and it is a gift given only to those whom God has prepared to receive it.

Authentic spiritual directors know how to discern when a soul in their care is moving toward this gift (see Thomas Dubay, referred to above).

My objection, as I stated before, to what I have read and heard about Centering prayer from Pennington and Keating, and those making presentations based on their work, is that while they borrow from these earlier teachers, they do so incompletely and inauthentically. They present a method by which a contemplative state can be induced by our personal practices and by which we “command” God to come to us, and by which we confuse our own inner stirrings and responses with the voice of God.

 

[LaVada]

Thanks to whosebob and asquared. Some find it difficult to listen to the voice of reason. Spiritual direction is difficult, if not impossible, to find these days. The writings of Seasoned Priests like Fr Dubay or the late Fr. Hardon are always good guides. St. Teresa of Avila is very cautious in her writings and expected (I believe) that one was under the care of an obedient Roman Catholic Spiritual Director before undertaking any changes in one’s prayer life. Not caring for “long” arguments, I’m “outta here” (smile)
Mary, Seat of Wisdom, pray for us.
Peace on earth to men of good will.
LaVada

 

[AlanFromWichita]

10 years ago I could not locate an in print version of the Cloud of Unknowing, by an anonymous 14th century English mystic, and my first copy was an old, long out of print version in archaic English. Now there are at least a dozen versions, with forewords and introductions that can be extremely bizarre, many linking it to New Age spiritualities derived from Zen, yoga etc. so be extremely careful.

Dear asquared,

The version I have is for sale at amazon, and you can also read excerpts from it online, at:
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385030975/qid=1093790681/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/002-0901643-1718463?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

While I was there I noticed some other books. Several writers have referenced Thomas Merton; there is a book related to The Cloud. “The Mysticism of the Cloud of the Unknowing,” that contains a foreward by him:
amazon.com/gp/reader/0823220753/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-0901643-1718463#reader-page

Another book I have not read (but just might have to get) by William Meninger, is “The Loving Search for God : Contemplative Prayer and the Cloud of Unknowing”
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0826408516/qid=1093790681/sr=8-5/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i5_xgl14/002-0901643-1718463?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

One reason I am drawn to the book by Meninger is that my first introduction to The Cloud was through some videotapes of Meninger discussing it chapter by chapter. I don’t know where to get them, but if I find them I’ll post a link to them.

My objection, as I stated before, to what I have read and heard about Centering prayer from Pennington and Keating, and those making presentations based on their work, is that while they borrow from these earlier teachers, they do so incompletely and inauthentically. They present a method by which a contemplative state can be induced by our personal practices and by which we “command” God to come to us, and by which we confuse our own inner stirrings and responses with the voice of God.

I have listened to many hours of videotapes by Keating and others over the last several years, and written articles for our diocesan newspaper on centering prayer, and I’ve never heard Keating even hint that we “command” God to come to us. We dispose ourselves to receive Him by striving for inner silence, thereby “inviting” Him, not “commanding” Him. Whether contemplation actually takes place, and to what degree, is up to God’s plan for the individual. This is passive prayer, by which we invite God into our hearts by removing distractions. If you want to talk about “commanding God,” then say the Our Father. Actually, many do say the “Our Father” at the end of a centering prayer session, so I guess to that degree they are “commanding God.”

Centering prayer isn’t complicated at all, as one might gather from reading this thread. There are no star charts, ouija ™ boards, meditative mantras, or magic incantations. It is simpler than saying the “Hail Mary.” It’s a matter of sitting quietly for 20 minutes. It amazes me to hear all the things that are read into it.

Alan

 

[ATeNumquam]

AlanFromWichita:

Centering prayer isn’t complicated at all, as one might gather from reading this thread. There are no star charts, ouija ™ boards, meditative mantras, or magic incantations. It is simpler than saying the “Hail Mary.” It’s a matter of sitting quietly for 20 minutes. It amazes me to hear all the things that are read into it.

Alan

I haven’t read everything on this thread by any means, so pardon me if I say what has already been said.
I agree with AlanFromWichita’s views. Centering prayer MAY be abused, but when I read Pennington’s book years ago, I found it squared with the Cloud of Unknowing (authentically translated) and I found it very helpful.
St Teresa distinguishes between acquired and infused contemplation. The first, we can dispose ourselves for (by such means as Centering Prayer); the latter only God can grant if and when He wills - it is a more advanced stage of prayer altogether.
She encourages us to practice recollection and the “prayer of simple regard” as she or someone else calls it, so I guess she would have no problem with Centering Prayer, though she does caution us not to try and artificially cease thinking during prayer if we have not reached a stage where that is what we are drawn to.
I guess there is a bit of a risk that people will think that is what Centering Prayer encourages us to do (blanking out) but I think we have to read the book carefully (ditto the Cloud of Unknowing) and I recommend balancing it with St Teresa’s very down to earth advice (see the Interior Castle & the Way of Perfection)