Centering Prayer

[TOP]

It looks like centering prayer isn’t a solid and sound practice that the Church endorse’s. Esp. by people experiencing adversity in prayer, be it dryness or even full blown spiritual attacks. The Lord hears me even when I whisper my prayers and think of His passion, I’m sure. Faith has to play a role in prayer. Faith that I am heard, that He listens to the least of my words. Do I need a mystical union with the Lord to be heard? Or empty myself of thought to be helped? My cry was heard and it was verbal, He came and saved me from hell. Wasn’t that good enough? Tim

 

[blessedstar]

19. Therefore, one has to interpret correctly the teaching of those masters who recommend “emptying” the spirit of all sensible representations and of every concept, while remaining lovingly attentive to God. In this way, the person praying creates an empty space which can then be filled by the richness of God. However, the emptiness which God requires is that of the renunciation of personal selfishness, not necessarily that of the renunciation of those created things which he has given us and among which he has placed us. There is no doubt that in prayer one should concentrate entirely on God and as far as possible exclude the things of this world which bind us to our selfishness. On this topic St. Augustine is an excellent teacher: if you want to find God, he says, abandon the exterior world and re-enter into yourself. However, he continues, do not remain in yourself, but go beyond yourself because you are not God; he is deeper and greater than you. "I look for his substance in my soul and I do not find it; I have however meditated on the search for God and, reaching out to him, through created things, I have sought to know ‘the invisible perfections of God’ (Rom 1:20)."21 “To remain in oneself”: this is the real danger. The great Doctor of the Church recommends concentrating on oneself, but also transcending the self which is not God, but only a creature. God is "deeper than my inmost being and higher than my greatest height."22
In fact God is in us and with us, but he transcends us in his mystery.23

20. “From the dogmatic point of view,” it is impossible to arrive at a perfect love of God if one ignores his giving of himself to us through his Incarnate Son, who was crucified and rose from the dead. In him, under the action of the Holy Spirit, we participate, through pure grace, in the interior life of God. When Jesus says, “He who has seen me has seen the Father” (Jn 14:9), he does not mean just the sight and exterior knowledge of his human figure (in the flesh is of no avail"–Jn 6:63). What he means is rather a vision made possible by the grace of faith: to see, through the manifestation of Jesus perceptible by the senses, just what he, as the Word of the Father, truly wants to reveal to us of God (“It is the Spirit that gives life …]; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life”–ibid.). This “seeing” is not a matter of a purely human abstraction (“ab-stractio”) from the figure in which God has revealed himself; it is rather the grasping of the divine reality in the human figure of Jesus, his eternal divine dimension in its temporal form. As St. Ignatius says in the “Spiritual Exercises,” we should try to capture “the infinite perfume and the infinite sweetness of the divinity” (n. 124), going forward from that finite revealed truth from which we have begun. While he raises us up, God is free to “empty” us of all that holds us back in this world, to draw us completely into the Trinitarian life of his eternal love. However, this gift can only be granted “in Christ through the Holy Spirit,” and not through our own efforts, withdrawing ourselves from his revelation .

**23. Without doubt, a Christian needs certain periods of retreat into solitude to be recollected and, in God’s presence, rediscover his path. Nevertheless, given his character as a creature, and as a creature who knows that only in grace is he secure, his method of getting closer to God is not based on any “technique” in the strict sense of the word. That would contradict the spirit of childhood called for by the Gospel. Genuine Christian mysticism has nothing to do with technique: it is always a gift of God, and the one who benefits from it knows himself to be unworthy.27 **

cin.org/users/james/files/meditation.htm

 

[blessedstar]

It looks like centering prayer isn’t a solid and sound practice that the Church endorse’s. Esp. by people experiencing adversity in prayer, be it dryness or even full blown spiritual attacks. The Lord hears me even when I whisper my prayers and think of His passion, I’m sure. Faith has to play a role in prayer. Faith that I am heard, that He listens to the least of my words. Do I need a mystical union with the Lord to be heard? Or empty myself of thought to be helped? My cry was heard and it was verbal, He came and saved me from hell. Wasn’t that good enough? Tim

Yes , more than good enough Tim.

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[inthecloud]

" have all the facts on the matter, not false information. In fact I work with one of the pioneers of Centering Prayer and a place that has taught it since day one. I don’t however. There are a few key words you use that send red flags. #1, you refuse to mention Christ, only “God” which can be anything you imagine. It is vague on purpose, because it is not Christian. The other thing is you say God is WITHIN you. This is a totally new age concept. Of course God is in you because God is everywhere, but when you focus on the in-you part, it makes one think (like the new age view) that man is God (God is a higher aspect of man), and not the creator and separate from the created."

But in the EO Jesus Prayer, people are taught to search for God within them. Of course is based by the EO concept of Theosis. God became man so man became God.
I’m familiar with the book “In the Cloud of Unknowing and the Book of Privy Counseling” and with St John of the Cross. I’m also reading John of the Cross right know.
And the idea of clearing the mind to create a emptiness (the dark night of the senses or the cloud of unknowing) that is then filled with Jesus have a long history in the CC and in EO. John of the Cross (a Doctor of the Church) compares the efect to the Disciples meeting in a room with closed windows and doors when Jesus appeared to them after the Resurrection and Thomas thougth he was a ghost. Maybe the problem lies in that the Centering prayer’s name.
And Thomas Merton made a important difference. In RC and EO Christianity the object is clearing your mind to create and emptiness that is filled by Jesus, (or Yahweh is you are a hasidic Jew). In Zen and Hindu meditantion the objetive is create a emptiness per se. HUGE difference. In one the soul receives God and is transformend by it, in the other the sould disolves into the great emptyness that is the ultimate reality.

 

[blessedstar]

" have all the facts on the matter, not false information. In fact I work with one of the pioneers of Centering Prayer and a place that has taught it since day one. I don’t however. There are a few key words you use that send red flags. #1, you refuse to mention Christ, only “God” which can be anything you imagine. It is vague on purpose, because it is not Christian. The other thing is you say God is WITHIN you. This is a totally new age concept. Of course God is in you because God is everywhere, but when you focus on the in-you part, it makes one think (like the new age view) that man is God (God is a higher aspect of man), and not the creator and separate from the created."

But in the EO Jesus Prayer, people are taught to search for God within them. Of course is based by the EO concept of Theosis. God became man so man became God.
I’m familiar with the book “In the Cloud of Unknowing and the Book of Privy Counseling” and with St John of the Cross. I’m also reading John of the Cross right know.
And the idea of clearing the mind to create a emptiness (the dark night of the senses or the cloud of unknowing) that is then filled with Jesus have a long history in the CC and in EO. John of the Cross (a Doctor of the Church) compares the efect to the Disciples meeting in a room with closed windows and doors when Jesus appeared to them after the Resurrection and Thomas thougth he was a ghost. Maybe the problem lies in that the Centering prayer’s name.
And Thomas Merton made a important difference. In RC and EO Christianity the object is clearing your mind to create and emptiness that is filled by Jesus, (or Yahweh is you are a hasidic Jew). In Zen and Hindu meditantion the objetive is create a emptiness per se. HUGE difference. In one the soul receives God and is transformend by it, in the other the sould disolves into the great emptyness that is the ultimate reality.

With all respect I will listen to the Doctrine of Faith from the Church above Fr Keatings and Thomas Merton’s erroneous ideas on methods.
The document from the Doctrine of Faith clearly explains why there are dangers and why these practises are erroneous. As Fr Serpa states centering prayer is ‘bogus’ and has nothing to do wth authentic Christian Prayer.

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[Pete_1]

I found this link but I have not read it
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711fea1.asp

 

[inthecloud]

And Thomas Merton made a important difference. In RC and EO Christianity the objective is clearing your mind to create and emptiness that is filled by Jesus, (or Yahweh is you are a hasidic Jew). In Zen and Hindu meditantion the objetive is create a emptiness per se. HUGE difference. In one the soul receives God and is transformend by it, in the other the sould disolves into the great emptyness that is the ultimate reality.

I believe the danger of the centering prayer, and I read the linked article is in that part, not in the practice per se. Is more a problem of teaching.
I read the CDF document posted and is the same idea. Christianity is Theistic not monistic.
But them what about the EO Jesus Prayer? Can a Catholic do the Jesus Prayer?

 

[blessedstar]

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=6892

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[blessedstar]

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=6337

 

[Joysong]

blessedstar:

Call me thick, call me unlearned, call me an idiot, call me someone who never experiences deep prayer, call me what you like but centering prayer has nothing to do with authentic Christian prayer and nothing to do with the writings of St Teresa or St John.

It is an erroneous method taught by Fr Keating and various bodies including EWTN, CAF Apologists etc have warned against its use and the promotion of it.

Evidence has been provided so I don’t understand why there is the continued singleminded promotion of it on the forums.

Ok, I’ll bite and call you all you say you are, and add a few more words as well; i.e., relentlessly pursuing this topic when you have not read the book and know nothing of Keating other than secondhand hearsay. You will not consider the magnificent instruction and exposition of a TRUE form of CP, expressed as RECOLLECTION in DBT’s post, one of the most learned carmelites on this forum.

We are NOT speaking of eastern meditation or techniques, if you would read the positive posts carefully, such as the last one from DBT. It is NOT a singleminded promotion, as you call it, but an effort to correct mindsets similar to yours that are deeply angered and unable to listen to reason. Rather it is YOUR singlehanded harrassment of posters that do not agree with you.

For every objection you posted, there is a rebuttal to show your error, but I highly suspect you will disregard it as before, so I won’t be as willing to spend time trying in the manner DBT did.

 

[blessedstar]

acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2007/05/errors-of-centering-prayer.html

 

[blessedstar]

Ok, I’ll bite and call you all you say you are, and add a few more words as well; i.e., relentlessly pursuing this topic when you have not read the book and know nothing of Keating other than secondhand hearsay. You will not consider the magnificent instruction and exposition of a TRUE form of CP, expressed as RECOLLECTION in DBT’s post, one of the most learned carmelites on this forum.

We are NOT speaking of eastern meditation or techniques, if you would read the positive posts carefully, such as the last one from DBT. It is NOT a singleminded promotion, as you call it, but an effort to correct mindsets similar to yours that are deeply angered and unable to listen to reason. Rather it is YOUR singlehanded harrassment of posters that do not agree with you.

For every objection you posted, there is a rebuttal to show your error, but I highly suspect you will disregard it as before, so I won’t be as willing to spend time trying in the manner DBT did.

God Bless you

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[blessedstar]

CP has been around a good while, tell me why then it is not actively promoted and recommended by the Vatican if it is so efficient in its methodology and free from error that it can lead to contemplation without recognising the life a man leads and all the mundane acts he must carry out in the day and of which Christ Jesus partook in His Incarnation on earth and further more His only purpose that He came for was to make the Father known and to die for men so that they may have union with Him and in doing so ‘did not see equality with God a thing to be grasped after’ but rather humbled Himself.

The Vatican do not promote CP and have produced documents to warn against the use of such methods as CP. EWTN ran a series on the New Age and within that series expounded the dangers of CP and did not recommend it practise. Johnette produced a book regarding the New Age and gave over an entire chapter addressing the pitfalls and dangers of CP as taught by Fr Keating and Thomas Merton.

I think St Teresa of Avila would be horrified to see that she is being used as a tool to promote CP. Her works do not have anything to do with CP as Pope John Paul II has stated and as our Holy Father, the then Cardinal Ratzinger has stated.

If someone has been a Carmelite all of their life and tells me CP is good and not erroneous I will not follow that advice above what the Church (Doctrine of Faith) has stated in their documents to the faithful for the good and protection of the faithful.

Good Catholics whatever their spirituality can hold opinions that are not inline with Christian thinking, that doesn’t make them bad, it makes their thinking and practises erroneous.

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[Joysong]

And still you pursue, Blessedstar . . .

CP has been around a good while, tell me why then it is not actively promoted and recommended by the Vatican if it is so efficient in its methodology and free from error that it can lead to contemplation

You were active in many threads back through 2004 and have seen every single post on this topic, yet you persist in your efforts to disparage it in every way you can. The Vatican will not pronounce on prayer forms, which this happens to be, any more than it will pronounce that one is better than another. All prayer is good, and there are many forms and progressions into interiority, and many differing calls that God gives to souls, depending on their readiness and His desire to lead them.

I repeat for the umpteenth time, that we are NOT discussing CP in the dress you continually try to clothe it. You saw the post below, together with every single one in that entire lengthly thread, so you are no novice to the concept. I fail to understand why you cannot grasp what the others are trying to say. It is NOT a promotion, only an explanation to the OP’s post in a way that will be the meaningful and TRUE exposition of CP, rather than the errors of CP that we are all wise to oppose.

DBT:

Here’s how I see it. You’re correct, IMHO, about what Fr. Dubay is saying: We are to “fill” our minds with Christ (what Teresa and John would call discursive meditation) until such time as God simply wants us to “be” . . . what Fr. Keating describes as “letting go our thoughts.”

In my opinion, the types of things Fr. Keating teaches will be of little value until God brings the soul to a more simplified, contemplative mode of prayer. A common misconception about this has to do with the whole debate about “emptying” and “filling.” The type of souls I’m talking about don’t “empty;” they are, by their very nature, already “filled” with Christ. Thus, in prayer, it often takes very little active effort on their part to become recollected – and open to the gift of contemplation.

For these souls, a method like CP could be a useful aide to recollection . . . a way, perhaps, not so much different than the way of St. Teresa. In her case, all she had to do was spend a few minutes with a good spiritual book or look at an inspirational picture and she’d be overcome with the desire to let go of her thoughts and simply “be.” This is recollection as it borders on infused contemplation.

However, the problem in all of this - as you seem to sense - is when one attempts to practice ways of recollection (CP in the context of this thread) when God has not yet brought the soul to this way of prayer. Dryness and internal turmoil will be the likely result.

This is why it is good to heed the advice of the Saints (and Fr. Dubay): stick with actively applying our minds in prayer (meditation, vocal prayers, whatever) until God let’s us know it’s time to leave our prayer and big thoughts aside and place ourselves entirely in His hands . . .
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1802068&postcount=276

Now I’m sure you will remember this? If not, it may be helpful to others who are reading and do not have the extensive exposure to the threads you have taken part in.

Since you remain entirely antagonistic to even the mention of CP, and expressed elsewhere that you do NOT have the power to convert anyone, but only God does, then please let this drop and move on to threads where you bring light to people. As you stated therein, one ought not to proselytize.

 

[blessedstar]

Some people have confused the Eastern Christian practice of the “Jesus Prayer” with "Centering Prayer.” The “Jesus Prayer” involves emptying ourselves of all that is self and all that is sinful and filling oneself with Christ. The Jesus Prayer is: “Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idCategory=34&idarticle=7349

 

[blessedstar]

And still you pursue, Blessedstar . . .

etc etc.

.

I am certain by not practising CP that I have committed no error in prayer as it is not necessary I practise it to grow and be formed by God in prayer.

Those who promote and/or practise CP cannot possess that same certitude as no authority higher than themself, that being the Church gives them that certitude but rather advises against it.

God Bless you

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[PatienceAndLove]

But why do CP practitioners pursue in a prayer form that has been repeatedly condemned?

 

[Joysong]

blessedstar:

I am certain by not practising CP that I have committed no error in prayer . . .
Those who promote and/or practise CP cannot possess that same certitude

Almost like, “I thank you Lord, that I am not like one of those …” and your words are very judgmental, cruelly insinuating that only your prayer is authentic.

The many sources you continue to cite are all correct in pointing out the dangers IF the practice is misunderstood and misapplied out of the proper context of recollection described by DBT, using Carmelite spiritual teachings. These “promoters” as you call them, do not disagree with these articles! Nor do they practice CP in the manner of emptying the mind, gazing inwardly at themselves as one poster implied. Several have stated this must not be imposed on those who are NOT ready for it by God. I personally took offense that CP was being taught indiscriminately to grade-school children, and sometimes imposed upon attendees en masse at days of recollection, etc. Yes, those are the dangers! But let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Because it is wrongly misunderstood, people are ready to condemn what they do not know and proselytize a wrong notion publicly to others so that anyone who is authentically practicing the TRUE form of CP will be scorned and considered heretical. That, my dear, is your serious error - leading others into false judgment as you yourself have just done above. But it doesn’t surprise me. This is only one of the many grievous errors circulating in the Church today, and only one of the many persecutions of really good people who have close relationships with God.

You are a new Carmelite at this time, yet you ascribe to teaching and knowing fully all the doctrine of these saints, sufficiently to condemn this practice first-hand as not being in accord with their teachings? Instead, you put extraordinary faith in articles you chanced to come by on websites that host non-Carmelite authors who don’t truly understand the contemplative prayer life. In that, you err and cause dissension.

 

[Joysong]

But why do CP practitioners pursue in a prayer form that has been repeatedly condemned?

Proof, please? I have not seen anywhere that it is ‘condemned’ other than by certain authors who misunderstand it and send out the militia, or who rightly warn about the dangers I mentioned in my last post, with which we agree.

You are only 23 years old and a student. Do you have understanding either experientially or by study (which is almost impossible to grasp until the Lord grants them) with regard to the prayer types and interior progression described by DBT? Yet you, too, seem ready to denounce the entire practice based solely on what you READ or HEARD, not what you KNOW. If you knew it by experience, you would be supporting it.

Since this belongs properly to those in the stage of prayer DBT described, it is never going to be commonly understood by anyone casually reading about CP. And that is the difficulty some have in defending it.

 

[blessedstar]

Almost like, “I thank you Lord, that I am not like one of those …” and your words are very judgmental, cruelly insinuating that only your prayer is authentic.

.

I didn’t say that and that wasn’t my intent, but you can look inside my heart and see that, of course.

Thank you

In the Living Prayer of my life