Centering Prayer

[Joysong]

#1, you refuse to mention Christ, only “God” which can be anything you imagine. It is vague on purpose, because it is not Christian. The other thing is you say God is WITHIN you. This is a totally new age concept.

David, you take offense without reason. Many of us refer to the *indwelling *Trinity (Father, Son AND Spirit) simply as “God.” It is not true that when one is attentive, as Jim said to God’s presence within, that a person’s focus must always be on Christ Jesus. Are you trying to put words in Jim’s mouth? Here is what he said:

In Centering Prayer, you do not attempt to attempt to empty your mind of all thought. The purpose of Centering Prayer is focusing your attention on the presence of God, who is within you. The sacred prayer word, is nothing more than returning your focus to God, when you find yourself distracted.

Many times my prayer focus changes from God, to the Son, to the Spirit, and at all times it is best to be attentive to WHOM we are praying or contemplating.

If it matters to you to learn the absolute truth as expressed by Doctor of the Church St.John of the Cross, I will find the quote for you that states God indwells ‘substantially’ every being He created, otherwise the creature would cease to exist. It is an awesome reality that is so utterly unknown by most people, but if they knew the truth of this, it would be very difficult to commit mortal sin in His presence, who knows the very hairs of our head and thoughts of our heart.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Dave

I

have all the facts on the matter, not false information. In fact I work with one of the pioneers of Centering Prayer and a place that has taught it since day one.

Really? Centering Prayer was founded by Fr. Thomas Keating and Fr. Basil Pennington. Fr. Pennington is dead.
It began at St. Joseph’s Abbey in Spencer, MA.

So, how can it be you work with one of the so called pioneers at the place where it was taught from the beginning?

There are a few key words you use that send red flags. #1, you refuse to mention Christ, only “God” which can be anything you imagine. It is vague on purpose, because it is not Christian.

Go back and read my post to Mary. I mentioned Jesus.

Also, Jesus is God.

The other thing is you say God is WITHIN you. This is a totally new age concept.

Beloved, if God so loved us, we also must love one another. This is how we know that we remain in him and he in us, that he has given us of his Spirit.
1 John 4:11-13

and

Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16

Of course God is in you because God is everywhere, but when you focus on the in-you part, it makes one think (like the new age view) that man is God (God is a higher aspect of man), and not the creator and separate from the created.

The focus is on God, who dwells within you. St. Teresa of Avila said that the greatest communication from God, is found in the depths of your being.

Also, it was interesting that you wanted to leave the forum and talk secretly to the poster about your views.

I wanted to speak to her in a less hostile environment which I knew this would turn into, as it always does.

Do you want to indoctrinate someone where they can’t see opposing views?

I want to present them with accurate information.

Having said all that, knock yourself out and practice it if it makes you happy. Since there is no definitive condemnation of it from Rome, you can go ahead and do it if it feels right to you. I just gave my opinion and I have a right to feel that way and share my views. You have a right to practice what you want. Of course, if it is ever condemned from Rome then you’ll have to stop or decide to be out of communion with the Church.

It will never be condemned because Rome would have to condemn the works of St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, Brother Lawrence and all books on written on contemplative prayer. Fr. Keating and Fr. Pennington’s writings on the subject have the Churches imprimatur. Those would have to be revoked as well.

I don’t think your head will explode and you’ll spit pea soup if you practice it, I just don’t think it is especially Christian or will bring you closer to CHRIST than other traditional prayer methods which there are many-more than enough for a lifetime of study.

This of course is your opinion which you have a right to. Opinions however, are not necessarily fact. And when it comes to what Centering Prayer is, your facts are distorted.

In Jesus Christ Our Lord
Jim

 

[Joysong]

Brooklyn:

This is what scares me. I know as a Christian that God dwells within me through the Holy Spirit, but that is not where I look for him. When I look within, all I see is sin and rebellion. “Looking within” has only caused me problems and led me astray in the past.

That’s probably because you are at a different phase of spiritual development. As I said before, when you have advanced in prayer, you will understand all of this more perfectly by experience. For now, if it gives you a problem to think that way, then don’t do it. Wait for God to lead you, step by step. You did say you are a revert, and that suggests a prayer life typically referred to as ‘purgative.’

Because you are not able to do this, does not nullify the fact that many others who are advanced can do so easily.

Contemplative prayer is not passive, it is very active because you are concentrating and thinking.

This is not true that contemplative prayer is active. Meditation and lectio divina is active. Contemplation rests, through quiet moments of one’s loving glance or through God placing one in the state of contemplation where He graces the soul supernaturally with infused loving awareness of Himself.

 

[Sheeniac]

If you feel uncomfortable with something, then don’t do it. The Church has an abundance of prayers and prayer approaches/practices (so to speak). Perhaps your discomfort is a sign that you are not ready for something at this point in time.

Personally, I’m not a big fan of it because it appears to be something open to possible unintentional misuse.

 

[DJHohl]

My facts are not distorted, I have studied it in depth and in fact have a point of view from both sides, having been involved with esoteric groups for over 20 years. I know exactly what centering Prayer is and what it leads to. I have seen it a thousand times working where I do where it is actively taught on a daily basis people. And yes, the person I work with was one of the first people to learn CP directly from Keating and one of the first people to teach it in an active retreat center.

My facts are not distorted. I, based on my experience, interpret the facts differently from you. My view is based on the study of the books, trying the practice, being involved with esoteric groups for 20 years before becoming Catholic, and seeing all the people daily here who practice it and then seeing what practices it leads them to. It is almost always, 90% of the time leading to more and more new age studies. Some of the nuns who started with Centering Prayer moved on to Reiki, and now even Tarot card study!

But again, it is not condemned by Rome, so knock yourself out.

 

[Brooklyn]

Jim you seem very passionate about this, and give good arguments for your position. But I have found counter-arguments to everything you said. One last thing I would like your response to is from the following article:

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=6337

The quote is

Throughout their books, Fr. Keating and Fr. Pennington mention St. Teresa of Avila, implying that she is an advocate of their prayer techniques. However, after reading her books, I have found that her teachings on prayer are the opposite of what Keating and Pennington are teaching. First of all, she says that contemplation is a gift from God, and no technique can make it happen. She says it is usually given to people who have a deep prayer life and are practicing many virtues, although God can give it to anyone he chooses. She repeatedly insists that contemplation is divinely produced. She said that entering into the prayer of quiet or that of union whenever she wanted it "was out of the question"8 She also said in her book, Interior Mansion, "For it to be prayer at all, the mind must take a part in it."9 Cardinal Ratzinger, in his booklet, also quotes St. Teresa as saying “the very care not to think about anything will arouse the mind to think a great deal”, and that the separation of the mystery of Christ from Christian meditation is always a form of "betrayal"10 St. Teresa advised her nuns to meditate or think about the Passion of Christ as a preparation for contemplation. The Catechism describes contemplation as “a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus” (#2715). The focus is Jesus and the heart is involved.

My question is, is the mind taking part in centering prayer? Or is it a passive action? If it is a passive action, then I would have to stay away from it. Passivity scares me.

Mary

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Brooklyn

Jim

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=6337

Catholic Culture is a neo-Catholic website, with a fundamentalist bias. You won’t get accurate information on Centering Prayer or contemplation, from this website.

Throughout their books, Fr. Keating and Fr. Pennington mention St. Teresa of Avila, implying that she is an advocate of their prayer techniques.

Fr Keating and Fr Pennington, teach that CP is not a technique to induce contemplation.

However, after reading her books, I have found that her teachings on prayer are the opposite of what Keating and Pennington are teaching.

Thats because its not what Fr Keating and Fr Pennington teach.

First of all, she says that contemplation is a gift from God, and no technique can make it happen.

Same thing Fr Keating teaches in “Open Mind Open Heart.”

She says it is usually given to people who have a deep prayer life and are practicing many virtues, although God can give it to anyone he chooses. She repeatedly insists that contemplation is divinely produced.

Same thing Fr Keating and Fr Pennington teach. They quote St. Teresa often, in their writings.

She said that entering into the prayer of quiet or that of union whenever she wanted it "was out of the question"8 She also said in her book, Interior Mansion, "For it to be prayer at all, the mind must take a part in it."9 Cardinal Ratzinger, in his booklet, also quotes St. Teresa as saying “the very care not to think about anything will arouse the mind to think a great deal”, and that the separation of the mystery of Christ from Christian meditation is always a form of "betrayal"10 St. Teresa advised her nuns to meditate or think about the Passion of Christ as a preparation for contemplation. The Catechism describes contemplation as “a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus” (#2715). The focus is Jesus and the heart is involved.

Again, everything that Fr. Keating and Fr. Pennington teach.

My question is, is the mind taking part in centering prayer?

Of course it is. You can not shut down your mind, even when you sleep. Centering Prayer merely directs our will, back to Christ, when we find ourselves distracted.

Or is it a passive action?

Its passive in the sense that it is God who gives you the transforming grace, to bring you toward spiritual union with Him.

If it scares you, then continue with discursive prayer, i.e. the Rosary, and other devotional prayers.

If however, you feel God calling you toward deeper prayer, then begin to read St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross.

Again, go read what I said is involved with Centering Prayer.

How anyone could condemn, siting quietly in the presence of Jesus, as I repeat His holy name, has always been perplexing for me in this forum.

Jim

 

[PatienceAndLove]

The folliwing is from THE DANGER OF CENTERING PRAYER
By JOHN D. DREHER

Many people assume centering prayer is compatible with Catholic tradition, but in fact the techniques of centering prayer are neither Christian nor prayer. They are at the level of human faculties and as such are an operation of man, not of God. The deception and dangers can be grave.

Centering prayer differs from Christian prayer in that the intent of the technique is to bring the practitioner to the center of his own being. There he is, supposedly, to experience the presence of the God who indwells him. Christian prayer, on the contrary, centers upon God in a relational way, as someone apart from oneself. The Christian knows a God who is personal, yet who, as Creator, infinitely transcends his creature. God is wholly other than man. It is also crucial to Christian prayer that God engages man’s whole being in response, not just his interior life. In the view of centering prayer, the immanence of God somehow makes the transcendence of God available to human techniques and experience.

The confusion of technique over encounter arises from a misunderstanding of the indwelling of God. The fact that God indwells us does not mean that we can capture him by techniques. Nor does it mean that we are identical with him in our deepest self. Rather, God indwells us by grace which does not blend human and divine natures. On the contrary, it perfects and empowers our limited human faculties, so that we can relate to him. We can no more manipulate this indwelling of grace by psychological techniques than we can manipulate our existence.

In short, true prayer goes to God from the center of one’s being, not in the center of one’s being. In authentic contemplation, our faculties are brought to God, not disengaged as they are in TM. Christianity seeks to redeem and restore man and the world in Christ. To seek escape from rather than to redeem the world is to set oneself against the mission of Christ. **That is why even the Jesus Prayer and the rosary (often cited as Christian “mantras”) are deeply charged with basic Christian theological content; they are used torelate in an interactive and personal way to the Lord and to the Virgin Mary. **For a similar reason, Catholic spiritual writers consistently insist a person must have a moral life and spiritual maturity before entering upon a life dedicated to contemplation. A person who seeks contemplation must first steep his mind in the word of God, conform his behavior to the moral law, submit his body to the spirit by asceticism, subjugate his will in humility to the will of God, and take on a heart given over to the love of God and neighbor. These means are incarnational and redemptive.

Read the following articles as well.
JUNG REPLACES JESUS IN CATHOLIC SPIRITUALITY
MENTAL PRAYER
Chapter 5 of The Unicorn in the Sanctuary: The Impact of the New Age on the Catholic Church

 

[DJHohl]

And this article further explains my position when I said Jim refers only to a Vague “God” and God “Within.”

"Pope John Paul II has pointed out to the whole Church the example and doctrine of St. Teresa of Avila who in her life had to reject the temptation of certain methods which proposed a leaving aside of the humanity of Christ in favor of a vague self-immersion in the abyss of divinity.

 

[DJHohl]

Catholic Culture is a neo-Catholic website, with a fundamentalist bias.
Jim

Translation: Orthodox/non-liberal

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Centering Prayer: Catholic Meditation or Occult Meditation?
from The Cross and the Veil
A Critique of M. Basil Pennington’s article, Centering Prayer, taken from The Contemplative Prayer Online Magazine.
magazine.The Rock

Still attempting to find the statement from the Vatican regarding Eastern practices (in this case, Buddhism and Hinduism, not Orthodox)

Found it!
LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Dave,
your facts may be distorted because the people that you see, who get messed up, from what you think is caused by Centering Prayer, would be messed up saying the Rosary, or attending Mass. As you said, some were nuns. Well, nuns say the Rosary and attend Mass. Why not blame those for getting them into trouble?

The issue isn’t that its centering prayer per se, that gets them into trouble, but rather, their own inordinate desires for mystical experiences. They’ll latch on to anything to reach their hearts desire.

From my experience with these folks, they don’t stick with Centering Prayer, because it doesn’t provide them with what their looking for. They move onto other things, and this is where Centering Prayer gets a bad rap. It wasn’t Centering Prayer that led them there, but their own desires.

New Agers use the Mass, Rosary beads, TM, Crystals and you name it. Are these the things that cause the harm, or rather is it the will of their intention that is misplaced? Rather than focusing on Jesus, their focused on the mystical experiences in themselves.

St. John of the Cross warns about being attached, to mystical experiences. He says, to let them go. They don’t, but attempt to take possession and control of them.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

PatienceAndLove

Still attempting to find the statement from the Vatican regarding Eastern practices (in this case, Buddhism and Hinduism,

Don’t bother, for Centering Prayer is not an Eastern practice.

As the founder, Fr Keating says, it comes from the book, “The Cloud of Unknowing.”

Also, the links posted which trash Centering Prayer. Why is it, these authors never interviewd Fr. Keating, or Fr. Pennington?

Fr Keating has done interviews for many people, on this subject.

Why not go to the source of this prayer method for the information?

Jim

 

[Hellisreal]

Hello Brooklyn,

Seems to me in reading ask the apologist a way back the answer to your question was basically no to this practice, you may want to use the search feature there to double check.
I will not do it for the same reasons you are hesitant to do so.
Have you ever noticed how budda always has his eyes closed, and christian saints always have a open eyed, almost wild eyed look?
Because of the difference in spirituality. Buddhists look inward, we look outward- just a thought.
I wont reply to anyone here who does not like what I have to say, I see some rather unpleasant exchanges going on here, and that’s detrimental to my spiritual walk.

Pax

 

[Joysong]

This is very unorthodox to assume the role of expounding St. Teresa of Avila’s works, for I see readily, Brooklyn, that the referenced article is not understanding her correctly. Her works are very difficult to grasp, and learned scholars and clergy in the Church have attempted [some unsuccessfully] to bring her teachings down to our level. But if one has not experienced supernatural prayer, her teaching will be Greek. I’m sorry you put so much weight on this article, but it tells me clearly that you have no practical experience with which to judge.
Catholicculture article:

First of all, she says that contemplation is a gift from God, and no technique can make it happen. She says it is usually given to people who have a deep prayer life and are practicing many virtues, although God can give it to anyone he chooses.

She repeatedly insists that contemplation is divinely produced. She said that entering into the prayer of quiet or that of union whenever she wanted it “was out of the question.”

That is correct, for this is a pure gift of infused (supernatural) contemplation given by God alone.

She also said in her book, Interior Mansion, “For it to be prayer at all, the mind must take a part in it.”

Depends where one reads this. In other areas of her writings, she is speaking about vocal prayer and the importance of being focused on God to whom we address our prayer. In the advanced Prayer of Union, which you do not understand, the mind with its thinking capabilities is totally and completely suspended by God in supernatural prayer.

Important:
But then again, we are NOT speaking about supernatural prayer when we consider CP. It is totally different, and to equate the two is to mislead, though not intentionally.

 

[DJHohl]

Dave,
your facts may be distorted because the people that you see, who get messed up, from what you think is caused by Centering Prayer, would be messed up saying the Rosary, or attending Mass. As you said, some were nuns. Well, nuns say the Rosary and attend Mass. Why not blame those for getting them into trouble?

Simple Jim. In science you have two or more test groups. You can give drug A to group 1, drug B to group 2 and a placebo to group 3. I have NEVER seen a nun who practices the traditional prayer systems get involved with New Age practices, while MANY nuns I see doing centering prayer get more and more involved with questionable and even occult practices like Tarot, enneagram, Reiki, etc.

Thanks,
DJ

 

[Joysong]

DJHoyl:

And this article further explains my position when I said Jim refers only to a Vague “God” and God “Within.”

Did you see my answer to your hasty and wrongful assumption?

"Pope John Paul II has pointed out to the whole Church the example and doctrine of St. Teresa of Avila who in her life had to reject the temptation of certain methods which proposed a leaving aside of the humanity of Christ in favor of a vague self-immersion in the abyss of divinity.

I know exactly what St. Teresa taught, and so does Jim, since we are both Carmelites. Have you read her words describing the problem? Do you know what you are speaking about, or going remotely by a chance recollection of what Pope John Paul wrote?

I think this thread is not helping the OP to see an answer to her question, but is typical of strewing uneducated darts with personal opposition due to not fully understanding either the contemplative concept in Catholic theology, nor centering prayer. As it is referred to here, it is NOT a mindless oriental technique, though some equate it with that due to ignorance of the true catholic prayer which centers with FULL mind on the indwelling Trinity.

It borders on being shut down, as usual, for the naysayers will not listen to sound reason or teaching, but insist on presenting faulty logic that has nothing to do with truth.

Since the Op and her supporters are having a problem understanding CP, and are not willing to hear those that do, nor are they drawn to it by God. . Enough information has been supplied here; it is clear to me Brooklyn and a few others have no attraction nor call from God to practice it.
Why not let it drop and move on with your own prayer practice?

 

[TOP]

I don’t know enough about the subject either way to promote or argue against it. But I find myself leary of it, esp. considering previous spiritual attacks that interfered with my prayer and brought up intrusive thoughts. I have found deep meditation and verbal prayer to silence this. Should centering prayer be avoided by persons under real spiritual attack? Thanks, Tim

 

[DBT]

I’ve not been able to keep up with this thread since it’s mushroomed over the course of the day.

For those truly interested in learning more about all this, I’d suggest getting to know what St. John of the Cross has to say in “The Ascent of Mt. Carmel.” This is the book given to us by the Church devoted to the purgation of the faculties of the soul . . . intellect, will and memory.

Book 2 of the Ascent discusses many things, not the least of which is the purgation of our intellect . . . thoughts and opinions in today’s terms. Book 3 deals with purging the memory . . . those things we recall to our minds which we often distort for our own gain. Book 3 also deals with purging our will . . . in short, our feelings and desires. Is this not what Fr. Keating et al are saying when you get right down to it? As Joysong noted earlier, this practice is called acquired contemplation and is very much a part of the interior life.

The long and short of it is that the more one grows and advances in prayer, the more the contemplative aspects take over. Contemplative souls “learn” (actively and passively) to let go all the thoughts that enter our minds each day that are not directly devoted to God or the needs of the present moment. This is the theology behind the concept of praying without ceasing. Brother Lawrence’s wonderful book “Practice of the Presence of God” is, in my opinion, the best practical application of St. John’s teaching in the “Ascent of Mt. Carmel.” Fr. Keating, from my experience, just expresses it in a different way.

But St. John places the purgation of the faculties of the soul - which seems to frighten many people - in a very advanced stage of the spiritual life . . . the night of the spirit. So no doubt much of the differences in opinion that are flying all over these posts can be attributed to different levels of personal experience.

Dave.

 

[DJHohl]

Did you see my answer to your hasty and wrongful assumption?

Just because YOU think of it that way does not mean I am incorrect or hasty. It is a favorite new age and /or liberal trick to use very vague words or to manipulate the words themselves. Another example of this vague use is the people to change the bible or prayers to get rid of any sex. I see that also on a daily basis, taking thousand year old prayers that refer to HIM (meaning Jesus) and changing it to “God.” This is done for an agenda they have. And in CP, they purposely use vague language because it is taken from Eastern practices, not Christian ones. Even if they “say” it is from the Cloud of Unknowing.

And yes, I use the word “God” also, but when used in a certain context, it is obviously being used to veil something.

But the answer to hre question is simple. If she feels comfortable doing it, go ahead. Like I said 20 times, it is not condemned by Rome so to each thier own. I believe in freedom, so go ahead. And to attack me by saying my information is ignorant, or hasty, etc…well, there are much better men out there such as bishops and priests and famous authors who agree with me.

Have fun.

DJ