Certain authors of the NT cite oral Tradition to support Christian doctrine, in addition to old Testament Scripture...

[joe370]

Dokimas;7516861]Quite cute

I was just joking around…

I don’t deal well with generalities. Be specific and I’ll give you a specific answer if I can.

Okeydoke…Different churches, in the world today, examine tradition in light of the Scriptures and come away from the scriptures with different traditions, just as is the case with the different interpretations regarding the scriptures. Can we know who is right and who is wrong, regarding these different interpretations and varying traditions, via the guidance of the holy spirit?

BTW, don’t you think God is big enough to deal with His church???

Yes. In a world with so many isolated and insular churches, in the world today, I truly do trust that God is big enough to deal to guide His church to all truth!

 

[PRmerger]

I do the same thing I do when I come accross any church that thinks their teachings are the correct teachings, like the JWs, the Mormons and the CC. I check their teaching with the Bible and decide for myself. I’ve concluded, of the three, the CC is the only one that believes mostly as I do, yet, IMO, wrong on some of it’s teaching, which is no big deal in light to the similarities are the essentials of the Faith with a little twist at times.

But you cannot tell anyone that his interpretation is wrong, if this person uses the same paradigm you do: the Bible and the Holy Spirit and me.

Do you see how that paradigm means you cannot tell a single person his view is incorrect? Each person uses the very same Bible (well, give or take 7 books) to come to a different (and sometimes contrary) position than you. But he’s read the same Bible and appealed to the same Holy Spirit.

 

[Dokimas]

I was just joking around…

I understood; that’s why I said what I said with after it.

Okeydoke…Different churches, in the world today, examine tradition in light of the Scriptures and come away from the scriptures with different traditions, just as is the case with the different interpretations regarding the scriptures. Can we know who is right and who is wrong, regarding these different interpretations and varying traditions, via the guidance of the holy spirit?

If you’re trying to convince me about your church, you’re welcome to continue to try. I’m not sure I’ll change my opinion about any church that says it’s the only one with all the correct answers.

Yes. In a world with so many isolated and insular churches, in the world today, I truly do trust that God is big enough to deal to guide His church to all truth!

My guess is that we define ‘church’ differently.

 

[joe370]

But you cannot tell anyone that his interpretation is wrong, if this person uses the same paradigm you do: the Bible and the Holy Spirit and me.

Do you see how that paradigm means you cannot tell a single person his view is incorrect? Each person uses the very same Bible (well, give or take 7 books) to come to a different (and sometimes contrary) position than you. But he’s read the same Bible and appealed to the same Holy Spirit.

Dok, I am not agreeing with PR because we both belong to the same church, so please don’t say:

Surprise, surprise, surpirse…

Doesn’t, what he said, make sense???

 

[joe370]

Dokimas;7516980]I understood; that’s why I said what I said with after it.

Cool…

If you’re trying to convince me about your church, you’re welcome to continue to try. I’m not sure I’ll change my opinion about any church that says it’s the only one with all the correct answers.

Forget about the CC for the moment; let’s pretend that the CC doesn’t exist. Now answer my question:

Different churches, in the world today, examine tradition in light of the Scriptures and come away from the scriptures with different traditions, just as is the case with the different interpretations regarding the scriptures. Can we know who is right and who is wrong, regarding these different interpretations and varying traditions, via the guidance of the holy spirit?

My guess is that we define ‘church’ differently.

No we don’t…

 

[Dokimas]

But you cannot tell anyone that his interpretation is wrong, if this person uses the same paradigm you do: the Bible and the Holy Spirit and me.

Do you see how that paradigm means you cannot tell a single person his view is incorrect? Each person uses the very same Bible (well, give or take 7 books) to come to a different (and sometimes contrary) position than you. But he’s read the same Bible and appealed to the same Holy Spirit.

We disagree again. I have told people their ideas are incorrect in light of the Bible. I try always to take care too because I could be incorrect. I have no problem speaking with JW’s and while in conversation, I attempt to point out their misunderstandings using the Bible alone because that’s the only thing we have in common as a source of belief.

 

[PRmerger]

We disagree again. I have told people their ideas are incorrect in light of the Bible. I try always to take care too because I could be incorrect. I have no problem speaking with JW’s and while in conversation, I attempt to point out their misunderstandings using the Bible alone because that’s the only thing we have in common as a source of belief.

But if you don’t acknowledge an authority OUTSIDE of Scripture, then what you have is just your fallible interpretation of Scripture vs the JW’s fallible interpretation of Scripture, and no one can say the other is wrong.

It’s like 2 people saying, “Chocolate is the best flavor!” and “No! Vanilla is the best!”

It’s just 2 people voicing their opinions; it’s a wild goose chase without the golden goose of Truth.

 

[Dokimas]

Forget about the CC for the moment; let’s pretend that the CC doesn’t exist. Now answer my question:

Different churches, in the world today, examine tradition in light of the Scriptures and come away from the scriptures with different traditions, just as is the case with the different interpretations regarding the scriptures. Can we know who is right and who is wrong, regarding these different interpretations and varying traditions, via the guidance of the holy spirit?

I’m only responsible for me. I share what I believe when I take the opportunities given me to share what I see as the Truth. That’s all I can do. That’s all I can give you for an answer.

No we don’t…

We most likely disagree again; no big deal, though.

 

[guanophore]

Any church is made up of it’s people. The ECFs that are important to you and your church are people. The church makes mistakes that its people (leaders) make, IMO.

This is the major difference between the church that was founded upon the Aposltes, and the ecclesial communities of today. The Church founded by Christ has Him as her Head, and is ensouled by the HS. Although persons who are in unity with the head are part of the Church, they are only part, and therefore, cannot lead the Church into falling away from Truth. Though the individuals can fall away, the Church itself cannot fall into error because of her divine elments.

Ecclesial communities, on the other hand, are not One, Holy, Catholic,a nd Apostolic, and therefore, do not have the promise to be led into “all Truth”. As a result, they do make the mistakes that their leaders make.

 

[Dokimas]

But if you don’t acknowledge an authority OUTSIDE of Scripture, then what you have is just your fallible interpretation of Scripture vs the JW’s fallible interpretation of Scripture, and no one can say the other is wrong.

It’s like 2 people saying, “Chocolate is the best flavor!” and “No! Vanilla is the best!”

It’s just 2 people voicing their opinions; it’s a wild goose chase without the golden goose of Truth.

There are authorities in the church Jesus founded but their authority is limited and must be in subjection to the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

BTW, do you think you’re going to change my mind?

 

[joe370]

I’m only responsible for me. I share what I believe when I take the opportunities given me to share what I see as the Truth. That’s all I can do. That’s all I can give you for an answer.

We most likely disagree again; no big deal, though.

A church is an assembly of united brothers and sisters in Christ - correct?

You say you don’t deal well with generalities, and then ask me to be specific, and that you will give me a specific answer, if you can. Is that as specific as it gets because I don’t see a specific answer to my question, but I don’t want to bug you, so if that is your final answer, I’ll drop it?

 

[Dokimas]

This is the major difference between the church that was founded upon the Aposltes, and the ecclesial communities of today. The Church founded by Christ has Him as her Head, and is ensouled by the HS. Although persons who are in unity with the head are part of the Church, they are only part, and therefore, cannot lead the Church into falling away from Truth. Though the individuals can fall away, the Church itself cannot fall into error because of her divine elments.

Ecclesial communities, on the other hand, are not One, Holy, Catholic,a nd Apostolic, and therefore, do not have the promise to be led into “all Truth”. As a result, they do make the mistakes that their leaders make.

Thank you for your opinion. I appreciate your time and thoughts.

 

[PRmerger]

There are authorities in the church Jesus founded but their authority is limited and must be in subjection to the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

BTW, do you think you’re going to change my mind?

Well, I have planted the seed, to be sure.

And there are many many questioners here on the CAFs that read but do not post, so this may also provide food for thought for them.

And I also think, you being a man of integrity, that you will be able to witness to some clueless Catholics in Massachusetts that God puts in your path. I chuckle to think of a conversation between you and this clueless Catholic in which you correct his misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine with, “No, sir, that is absolutely NOT what you Catholics believe. You actually believe ____, and you should be ashamed that I, a non-Catholic actually know your faith better than you.”

Oh, how I wish I could be a fly on the wall to witness that conversation!

 

[guanophore]

Any ‘church’ that humbly follows (to the best of their ability - yielding to the Holy Spirit’s direction) the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is kind of a disconnect, Doki. You are saying that any chruch that humbly follows the HS is authorized by God to determine which are the valid Apostolic Traditions. At the same time, you are saying that the church makes the same mistakes it’s leaders make.

Doesnt seem like a very reliable method to me.

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by ‘deposit of faith’.

The Apostles delivered the One Faith to the Church “once for all”. In this divine deposit of the faith, there are two strands, sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition. Together they comprise the Truth that Jesus wants for His One Body, the Church. The Church also taught that the public revelation from Christ ended with the death of the last Apostle.

This is one of the reasons we have to reject the doctoral innovations of the Reformation. We are not at liberty to incorporate new doctrines that were not part of the Deposit of Faith.

Tradition should be examined in light of the Scriptures and if the tradition is not against the Scriptures and edifies believers, it’s good to follow.

Do you distinguish between Sacred Tradition and traditions of men?

The Scriptures should always be deferred to, no matter what mistakes church leaders make. (By church leaders I’m referring to any Christian church.)

Yes, and this is good, in principle. The problem is that there are as many interpretations of scripture as there are belly buttons, so everyone ends up “deferring” differently.

What Sacred Tradition does is transmits the frame or perspective of the Apostles, so that we can understand what is written according to the faith of the persons who wrote it. That prevents us from projecting modern ideas or innovations, and misunderstandings of the text.

 

[Dokimas]

A church is an assembly of united brothers and sisters in Christ - correct?

Is that church the CC? or is it the ‘invisible’ church of all true believers that only Jesus knows who is and who is not part of it because He’s the only one to see hearts?

 

[Dokimas]

This is kind of a disconnect, Doki. You are saying that any chruch that humbly follows the HS is authorized by God to determine which are the valid Apostolic Traditions. At the same time, you are saying that the church makes the same mistakes it’s leaders make.

It’s not as complicated as you make it.

Doesnt seem like a very reliable method to me.

The Apostles delivered the One Faith to the Church “once for all”. In this divine deposit of the faith, there are two strands, sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition. Together they comprise the Truth that Jesus wants for His One Body, the Church. The Church also taught that the public revelation from Christ ended with the death of the last Apostle.

 

[joe370]

Is that church the CC? or is it the ‘invisible’ church of all true believers that only Jesus knows who is and who is not part of it because He’s the only one to see hearts?

The bible is silent about an invisible church, unless I am missing something. I am talking about each and every respective church, regardless of affiliation, that is united and one, in and of itself. As an invisible body of Christians, we do not assemble as one. However, we, as brothers and sisters in Christ, are all united by baptism and faith in Jesus Christ, but divided otherwise. Well, that’s how I see it anyway.

 

[guanophore]

I've concluded, of the three, the CC is the only one that believes mostly as I do, yet, IMO, wrong on some of it's teaching, which is no big deal in light to the similarities are the essentials of the Faith with a little twist at times.

So, will you be confirmed in your local Catholic parish this Easter?

 

[Dokimas]

Well, I have planted the seed, to be sure.

Thank you for trying. However, you are assuming the seed you tried to plant is one that God knows I need. Maybe He disagrees with you about that. I have many needs, I’m not sure what you think I need are any of my needs.

And there are many many questioners here on the CAFs that read but do not post, so this may also provide food for thought for them.

It may have the opposite effect too. That’s quite scary. That’s why I almost stopped posting after the last time I was put on ‘timeout’. My words at times were definitely NOT God’s words from my keyboard. That too is scary.

And I also think, you being a man of integrity, that you will be able to witness to some clueless Catholics in Massachusetts that God puts in your path.

Who says anything about witnessing to a catholic??? Where did that come from. BTW, if a catholic is clueless, maybe that person isn’t a Christian and I’d think you’d want me to tell them the Gospel.

I chuckle to think of a conversation between you and this clueless Catholic in which you correct his misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine with, "No, sir, that is absolutely NOT what you Catholics believe.

Now it’s me that is clueless … How’d you come up with this tale???

You actually believe ____, and you should be ashamed that I, a non-Catholic actually know your faith better than you."

That’s the way you handle protestants, but that’s not how I’d speak to a catholic. Would I answer their questions? Sure. Would I always tell them that it’s my opinion (as I do here)? YES.

Oh, how I wish I could be a fly on the wall to witness that conversation!

Don’t tell me you believe in evolution (or would that be de-evolution)?

 

[Dokimas]

I must get some sleep. Take care all and God bless.