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Burdock
Guest
I I have been thinking of becoming a catholic, but i cant agree that birth control is wrong. Also i have problems with transubstansiation. Therefore i suppose i cannot convert.
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Tietjen
Guest
Welcome to the forums.
Well, perhaps if these subjects are simply not understood, you might come to understand them better and then there would be no problem. However, if you reject the Church’s dogma, you cannot become a Catholic and why would you if you believed that the Catholic Church was wrong? There are many here in the forums who can explain these two topics well, what problems do you have with them?
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Burdock
Guest
There is nowhere in the bible that suggests that birth control is wrong. Also the host does not turn into the actual flesh and blood of christ . We celebrate holy communion in remembrance of him they are symbols. Also if the catholic church allowed condoms to be used in the third world aids would not have spread like it has.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Really? What about this from Our Lord Himself?
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.
Mark 10:14 Whom when Jesus saw, he was much displeased, and saith to them: Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of God.
Not to mention this direct command from God Himself at creation.
Genesis 1:27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.
Historically all of Christianity has decried and opposed the use of birth control. Surprisingly, even the early Pagan philosophers did so.
Really? The New Testament and the verifiably historical writings of the early church fathers would strongly disagree with you. I deal with this in an article on my Catholic blog called The Eucharist IS Scriptural.
That’s moral relativism. Christian morality is based upon Divine Revelation and not upon some social concession to immoral behavior.
The Catholic Church has always taught that fornication (pre-marital sex) and adultery, (extra-marital sex) are grave sins. Equipping and enabling those behaviors is participating in those sins and gives very serious scandal by secular and religious leaders in those countries and societies that make those concessions to those behaviors.
The spread of AIDS and other STDS is the result of immoral behaviors and not the Catholic Church’s opposition to them.
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puzzleannie
Guest
or, alternatively, you could do what others in your position have done, and what many Catholics have to do, which is to actually study those issues, and Catholic doctrine and practice in general. In that way you will uncover areas in which your understanding of the teaching is incomplete or misinformed, and improve your knowledge and understanding. You will further learn the reasons why the Church teaches as she does–because it is Truth revealed by God, and her mission is to preserve, teach and hand on that truth. Most beneficial of all, you will learn the key to happiness, which is humility, and that grounding in the mother of virtue, obedience.
welcome home, by the way, even if you are still far out there on the road. You would not have come here if you were not seeking the Truth, and if you are headed in the direction of home you will get here in time.
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Tietjen
Guest
In the Bible we see that Onan spilled his seed to avoid fulfilling his duty according to the ancient Jewish law of fathering children for one’s dead brother.
“Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.’ But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also” (Gen. 38:8–10).
The biblical penalty for not giving your brother’s widow children was public humiliation, not death (Deut. 25:7–10). So what then was the offense Onan committed? Onan choose to spill his seed (to avoid pregnancy - IE. Birth Control). That is what was “displeasing in the sight of the Lord.”
But the Bible says otherwise:
1 Cor 10:16-17
1 Cor 11:23-29
John 6:32-71
We can see from these and other Bible verses that the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is absolutely true and not merely a symbol. In addition to Christ Himself telling us this, we also have the Apostles. However, it doesn’t stop there. We also have the people who knew the Apostles, who walked with the Apostles, who learned directly from the Apostles, and who were the friends of the Apostles. Some like Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandria, etc. These 1st and 2nd century men (some of whom who knew the Apostles) understood and stated plainly in MANY places that it is the Real Presence and not simply symbolism. Many have to see it to believe it however, and since Christ doesn’t make it evident (usually) by sight, many don’t believe. However, remember what the Lord said in John 20:29.
Well, one can never do evil to affect good. If this were allowed to be done, it would be justifiable to say force castration on individuals in order to help stop AIDS. Therefore, the old adage, “the ends justifies the means” is not an option and since Catholics know and understand that contraception is a mortal sin and violates the natural law; we cannot break it.
I hope this helps. God bless you.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Well that would be correct, at least until you have worked thru these things and accepted them.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
As it has been said not everything Christ taught is in the Bible, as a matter of fact even the Bible says that.
The Church teaches it as Moral truth. Therefore it must be accepted and followed or a person can place themselves in a state of grave mortal sin. Remember if you have a problem with a Doctrine or moral teaching you do not have a problem with the Catholic Church, you have a problem with Christ.
“Also if the catholic church allowed condoms to be used in the third world aids would not have spread like it has.”
Did you ever think that if people lead a moral life and didn’t have sex with anyone except their spouse, it also, would not have spread like it has! ???
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VociMike
Guest
That’s probably why every Christian church taught it was wrong until the 1930s.
Did you ever stop to think what a crummy memorial meal it is in that case? I mean, grape juice and crackers for the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Savior of the World?! We would remember the building janitor with much better food and drink. Heck, it’s not even a meal, and barely even a snack.
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chris_molter
Guest
I’ll let others speak to the doctrinal matters, but I’ve seen this argument presented before and it’s nonsense.
Do you think that those men who are running around sleeping with all these girls aren’t wearing condoms because the Pope is telling them it’s a sin? If so, why are they sleeping around since that’s an even more serious sin?
See the logic there? Do you think if the Pope says “Oh, ok, go ahead and use condoms!” that these guys will be like: “whew! I’m so glad I can use condoms now when I go out to pick up random girls for sex!”
The men who are running around spreading STDs are not SERIOUS PRACTICING CATHOLICS who listen to the Pope! So why would they care if the Church lets them use BC or not?
C’mon… think!
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Burdock
Guest
A lot of the woman are raped against their will. Im not saying that people should sleep around. But there is nowhere in the bible that forbids contraception in marriage go forth and multiply is not meant to be taken literally .I think these days a lot of catholics ignore this anyway otherwise they would have bigger families.
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Evan
Guest
Interesting idea, but completely at odds with the truth. In Africa, where condom use is highest, AIDS has spread fastest. Where condoms are not available, AIDS has gone into recession.
See: AIDS and the Churches: Getting the Story Right firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=6172
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Burdock - God Bless you. You are being called by the Holy Spirit and now you are in a tension between what you have been taught “by the world” and what The Holy Spirit wants to teach you through His Church.
It will take baby steps. This is not going to be easy since even us cradle Catholics usually had to rediscover our faith later in life as we got sucked into the world completely unawares. Most of what the world says on the surface seems “reasonable” and agreement with personal freedom. What hopefully the Holy Spirit will lead you to understand is that the freedom thing is an utter myth. Freedom, the way we Americans practise it is self worship and irresponsible and anything but Freedom. What happens is we equate Freedom with the ability to do anything we want. This is NOT freedom. Freedom is the ability to do anything that God wants. The false kind of Freedom leads to ENSLAVEMENT - the opposite of Freedom. It is what brings us STDs. addictions to sex, porn, drugs, false doctrines etc. etc. It is what leads to illegitimate children and worldly arguments for contraception to prevent unwanted children. It is what leads to abortion and the death of innocent life.
I encourage you to think universally and holistically and see that our time here on earth is NOT ABOUT US at all. It is about God giving us an opportunity to be CHILDREN OF GOD! Given that reality and perspective - why would anyone want to trade the joy of an eternity of unimaginable joy and privilege for 10-20-30 years of irresponsible and illicit sex (with our without condoms), drugs and unbridled and irresponsible freedom? We have more Freedom that all of the Universe if we sacrifice a little now to accept God’s call to eternity.
As for believing in the Eucharist. That takes a spiritual gift from God to accept in faith. It will come as you start to develop trust in God and see how amazingly consistent scripture is throughout all of history. Here is a hint: It is NOT a matter of seeing it proven in scripture (even though it is there too). What it is is a matter of wanting to believe and hoping it is true and wanting it to be true and then one day it becomes true since everything in scripture just ratifies it for thousands of years. It’s prefigured in the OT with the manna that comes down from heaven. It is prefigured in Genesis as the fruit of the tree of life as an antidote to the poison of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That latter is seen on the cross - the tree of life with Jesus as the fruit on that tree. It is prefigured in the Incarnation - the living Word of God come down from heaven made flesh.
Pray - it will come.
James
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mark_a
Guest
Is turning a blind eye to the type of birth control that can cause spontanious abortion wrong?
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Burdock
Guest
A lot of you who have replied to me have been polite .But some of you have been very sarcastic and rude.
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m134e5
Guest
Your posts may come across the same way to others. You seem to make definitive statements against Catholic doctrine. Why have you thought of becoming Catholic if you reject what the Catholic Church teaches?
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mark_a
Guest
Sometimes I forget too easily that real people, not just screen names, are looking for information here.
I’m sorry about being rude.
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Jon_S
Guest
The non-use of contraception is part of a package deal; including abstaining form sex before marriage and remaining faithful to your spouse after marriage.
The problem in Third World countries is that the problem of AIDS is exacerbated by the fact that only one of the parts of this package deal is being followed; they are not using contraception.
If they are following only one small part of the deal, then how can the Catholic Church be blamed for this?
When I buy a model airplane and try to put it together without following ALL of the instructions, should I be able to blame this on the model manufacturer?
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Rolltide
Guest
The following post of mine from several months ago might help you with the issue of transubstantiation:
Perhaps it would be helpful to look at what those people closest to the disciples thought about the matter. After all, if you want to interpret the passages in the Bible correctly, it would be useful to see what the first few generations of Christians actually thought.
Catholics believe that Jesus is not just symbolically present in Communion, but actually physically present. You may be interested to note that we are not the only denomination that holds to this view. In fact, about 2/3 of ALL Christians believe this to be true, including the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and some Anglicans and Lutherans. In order to prove the Real Presence, I think it’s essential to look at both what the Bible says and what has historically been true. After all, if it is a corruption, it should be fairly easy to track down at what point it entered into Catholic belief. Looking at what people believed in the very early church would be critical to your argument that it is false.
So, I’m going to begin to answer the question from the historical perspective, and then go back and deal with the Biblical issues. I realize that it will be very important to back up the claim with what’s taught in the Bible, since it is an inspired source. BUT, if we want to know how to correctly interpret that source, we need to see what the apostles and the followers of the apostles thought about how it should be interpreted. If it matters, I’m a professional historian at a small private college in the South, although my area of expertise is Latin America, not the Catholic Church or theology. (Just so you know that my research has some credibility.)
Perhaps it would be helpful to look at what those people closest to the disciples thought about the matter. After all, if you want to interpret the passages in the Bible correctly, it would be useful to see what the first few generations of Christians actually thought.
Catholics believe that Jesus is not just symbolically present in Communion, but actually physically present. You may be interested to note that we are not the only denomination that holds to this view. In fact, about 2/3 of ALL Christians believe this to be true, including the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and some Anglicans and Lutherans. In order to prove the Real Presence, I think it’s essential to look at both what the Bible says and what has historically been true. After all, if it is a corruption, it should be fairly easy to track down at what point it entered into Catholic belief. Looking at what people believed in the very early church would be critical to your argument that it is false.
So, I’m going to begin to answer the question from the historical perspective, and then go back and deal with the Biblical issues. I realize that it will be very important to back up the claim with what’s taught in the Bible, since it is an inspired source. BUT, if we want to know how to correctly interpret that source, we need to see what the apostles and the followers of the apostles thought about how it should be interpreted. If it matters, I’m a professional historian at a small private college in the South, although my area of expertise is Latin America, not the Catholic Church or theology. (Just so you know that my research has some credibility.)
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Burdock
Guest
i still feel drawn to the catholic faith but i will have to do some more reading up about the issues i have a problem with. i would like to thank everyone for their replies.
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