Certain Healing Masses may become a thing of the past

[dessert]

A few weeks ago, my Life Teen group had a Life in the Spirit retreat, and we prayed over the teens for baptism in the Holy Spirit. Most of them rested in the Holy Spirit, mostly at the time of the prayer, but one boy was kneeling in front of the Blessed Sacrament and 15-20 min later, he fell as hard as he could have right on his face.
There was not a mark on the boy.
It seems to me that God protects this sort of thing (although it is very prudent to have catchers, which we did, at the prayer stations).

Just because there was not a mark on him means squat!
Any fall such as this could injure the vertabrae in the neck and he may have slight fractures in his jaw as this is what happens to many that have epileptic seizures. The affects may not show till later in life but they will show eventually and a pregnant lady falling could cause injury to the fetus of which may not be known right away but could cause a miscarriage and now we are talking murder, as my friend could have died as she further has had headaches ever since she was that close to the C- 1 or 2 injury, this is real folks!
Not just a slant aginst Aof G churches! It is as close to voodoo as you can get and you are allowing any spirit to come into you and possess you, as can you say that all the spirits in the room are true and the perosn you allow to touch you is pure of the spirit. Ahhh wake up and smell the roses but don’t kiss them because they have thorns!
Dessert

 

[dessert]

I assume you are referring to being slain in the spirit. The Priest or Pastor or some other worthy person lays hands upon the person requesting the Holy Spirit, usually on their head, As the power of the Holy Spirit flows from his hand to the body of the receiving person, he. the receiver, overcome with the power and filled with the Holy Spirit loses control and falls. It is a very well choreographed event complete with “catchers” since usually, everyone involved fully expects that they will indeed be overcome.

In fact, it is a relatively rare thing when one does not fall or at least be staggered during the ceremony. However when that rare event happens the receiver is quite often told that he is not trying hard enough and that he needs to pray more and more actively seek the special charism being bestowed.

The question was what is the point of falling?

This is a lie there is no Holy Spirit present.

Would God want to cause injury to someone who wishes to be healed?

God healed me of a broken leg but I ended up with a broken vertebrae, oh bless God , I don’t think so!

The bible speaks as a lie and a truth cannot come out of the same spirit. Be Ware! Dessert

 

[VociMike]

I had a friend that broke her neck and I would just attend a different RCC if mine started having healing service. She did not sue.

Are you saying that you have a friend who broke her neck falling in a healing service? Or you have a friend with a broken neck who then attended a healing service? I can’t tell what you mean.

 

[Hellisreal]

I think we need more photos if possible. Until you have seen this up front, its very hard to imagine the mass meyhem and confusion you will see.

 

[palmas85]

The question was what is the point of falling?

This is a lie there is no Holy Spirit present.

Would God want to cause injury to someone who wishes to be healed?

God healed me of a broken leg but I ended up with a broken vertebrae, oh bless God , I don’t think so!

The bible speaks as a lie and a truth cannot come out of the same spirit. Be Ware! Dessert

I agree with you. I don’t see any real reason for it either. I don’t doubt that it can happen, but the way it is done at these gatherings to me smacks more of sensationalism than anything substantive. Particularly since they all seem to follow a very predictable pattern,

But then again I am mean spirited, uncharitable and uncircumsized of heart and ears.

 

[dessert]

Are you saying that you have a friend who broke her neck falling in a healing service? Or you have a friend with a broken neck who then attended a healing service? I can’t tell what you mean.

Falling in a Aof G service normal not just healing, you see all have their eyes closed( not just literally) and so they don’t look at each other and some are appointed to watch out for others but her husband was right next to her didn’t know what was going on, and the excuse was when some go into a trance they stiffen up instead of just cllosping and so she fell right on her back. Bang! her husband was so unhappy but they continue to go tho these kind of churches for a healing of her neck now? stupid isn’t it? Those pics tell it all scary! but some have convulsions and shaking etc. and the excuse is they are just faking. It is like a senance must be like or some voodoo! Just Be careful as Jesus says in the bible and if it is happening in your parish tell the bishop. Before someone gets hurt. Dessert

 

[East_and_West]

I assume you are referring to being slain in the spirit. The Priest or Pastor or some other worthy person lays hands upon the person requesting the Holy Spirit, usually on their head, As the power of the Holy Spirit flows from his hand to the body of the receiving person, he. the receiver, overcome with the power and filled with the Holy Spirit loses control and falls. It is a very well choreographed event complete with “catchers” since usually, everyone involved fully expects that they will indeed be overcome.

In fact, it is a relatively rare thing when one does not fall or at least be staggered during the ceremony. However when that rare event happens the receiver is quite often told that he is not trying hard enough and that he needs to pray more and more actively seek the special charism being bestowed.

I was raised in the charismatic movement. I was just asking a rhetorical question.

 

[East_and_West]

My point in starting this thread was not to offer an opinion on the theology of being slain by (resting in) the spirit, but to point out that the practice is ripe for lawsuits, and the last thing parishes and dioceses need is more lawsuits. If you were a bishop or diocese insurance provider, would you want to see these things happening in your churches, simply based on a liability standpoint?

http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/medjugorje/phpU9YGSO

The domain name fathersglory.com is for sale

http://purgatorio1.com/wp-content/pics/slain1.jpg

In that case, those parishes should be sued for putting people in needless danger. The fact is that these experiences based on emotion and hypnotism and not on a true connection with the Triune God. That being the case, I say sue all the parishes that do this!

 

[Spirithound]

Just because there was not a mark on him means squat!

I may not be a med student, but I do know that if you get hit, you bruise. Or at the very least, you get a red mark.

 

[Spirithound]

…Their is no histroy of it in the no Church, ever…
We should not be endorsing cultic practices that come from non-Christian sources.
…Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a separate rite in the Church because we already have two sacraments that fullfill this…
Are the sacraments not good enough?
On a personal note: I grew up in the Charismatic movement… But I also learned that this movement is dangerous. It draws people into an emotional faith, rather than a solid relationship with Jesus Christ that can stand the test of time. When the emotions are gone, what have we left? In the Charismatic movement, the answer is nothing…

Have not some saints experienced ecstasies? Why do you begrudge young people of this experience as well?
Your assumption that the whole movement is bunk because there is not an ancient history to it is just that: an assumption. What would you say to the St. Anthony the Abbot? He started the monastic movement. Nobody had before thought about living alone to contemplate. How is that different?
I disagree that the charismatic movement is cultic. I firmly believe that it is from God.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is simply praying for special graces.
CCC 2003- “Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning ‘favour’, ‘gratuitous gift’, ‘benefit’. Whatever their character–sometimes it is extraordinary, such s the gift of miracles or of tongues-- charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace, and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.”

Confirmation does indeed impart the Holy Spirit on us, but why not ask for more?
I (and the other Core members of my parish’s LifeTeen group) do acknowledge the dangers of a purely emotional relationship with God, and we have worked through several situations when God has deprived several of our teens of the “God-high” that they sought, but guess what? God doesn’t give His children anything they can’t handle, and those experiences have only served to draw those teens even closer to Him.

 

[VociMike]

Have not some saints experienced ecstasies? Why do you begrudge young people of this experience as well?

The question is, does collapsing to the ground have to be part of the work of the Spirit? We’ve already got one head injury and one broken neck reported in this thread. Do these experiences really require liturgies that risk great bodily harm?

 

[Spirithound]

The question is, does collapsing to the ground have to be part of the work of the Spirit? We’ve already got one head injury and one broken neck reported in this thread. Do these experiences really require liturgies that risk great bodily harm?

I must admit that falling is not an integral part of the experience. It is nice to rest in the Spirit tho, and some of our teens actually knelt down, or laid on the ground for the prayers. Perhaps this would be a more prudent arrangement, if you should so choose to be a part of it.

 

[kellyanne]

Originally Posted by palmas85
I assume you are referring to being slain in the spirit. The Priest or Pastor or some other worthy person lays hands upon the person requesting the Holy Spirit, usually on their head, As the power of the Holy Spirit flows from his hand to the body of the receiving person, he. the receiver, overcome with the power and filled with the Holy Spirit loses control and falls. It is a very well choreographed event complete with “catchers” since usually, everyone involved fully expects that they will indeed be overcome.

In fact, it is a relatively rare thing when one does not fall or at least be staggered during the ceremony. However when that rare event happens the receiver is quite often told that he is not trying hard enough and that he needs to pray more and more actively seek the special charism being bestowed.

I have been to a healing service (outside of mass, but within the RCC) and was very upset to find that the priest was pushing on my forhead, expecting me to fall back. I resisted, naturally, but it sure made me wonder about the priest.

OTOH, if the person administering the prayer over another is truly humble, “falling” should not be expected, and any results should be left up to God. It is not ALWAYS a certainty that one should experience this “resting.”

 

[BarberClan]

Every mass is a healing mass. Once a month at our Cathedral there is a “healing” mass on Friday evening – and it is quite beautiful and moving. In the past there were “catchers” for those who stood and were anointed and prayed for/over; however, now everyone sits in the pew at different prayer stations where there is either a priest or deacon and another prayer team member (maybe they read some of these postings and that’s why they now sit!). The power of prayer is amazing. The power of the Holy Spirit is impossible to put into words. I love the healing masses held at our Cathedral!

 

[Walking_Home]

Every mass is a healing mass. Once a month at our Cathedral there is a “healing” mass on Friday evening – and it is quite beautiful and moving. In the past there were “catchers” for those who stood and were anointed and prayed for/over; however, now everyone sits in the pew at different prayer stations where there is either a priest or deacon and another prayer team member (maybe they read some of these postings and that’s why they now sit!). The power of prayer is amazing. The power of the Holy Spirit is impossible to put into words. I love the healing masses held at our Cathedral!

---

Yes —the power of the Holy Spirit is amazing—yet for centuries the Holy Spirit did not need the Charismatic movement to reflect the action of the Holy Spirit. Multitudes of people have been helped thru the direct intercession of our Lady and/or the Saints.

 

[uther]

Ever read Raymond Arroyo’s biography of Mother Angelica? It was 1970, she had already struck out in pure faith of the kind that few of us can muster and had started a monastery, built a chapel, had raised money through two different business ventures and all in all had allowed God to work through her, both on the level of ministry and also spiritually, when a priest of the CCR was hounding her to receive the Holy Spirit.

Does that not strike anyone else as rather bizarre just on the face of it? How did he think that she had accomplished everything that she had to that point except by the power of the Holy Spirit? So what was it that he was peddling? An experience.

But wait a moment. Why could she not receive this from the Holy Spirit on her own? Why did he have to lay hands on her to pass it along? He was no Bishop. There is only one laying on of hands and that is the Bishop or his designate. She rightly pointed out at the time that she had already received the Holy Spirit. Does it not say in the Bible that the Holy Spirit blows where he wills?

Finally she gave in, and predictably she spoke in tongues. The way that she speaks of the experience is that she had no control over the gift, and had to fake having a cold in order not to let on to the others that she was speaking in tongues. (She had her own reasons for not wanting them to know at first) No control of the gift? This is the Holy Spirit who respects our free will, and who can only be received by the touch of someone who has this spirit?

Does there not seem to be something somewhat out of whack here?

I definitely wouldn’t be part of a law-suit because I would be going the other way at all possible speed.

It seems that the motto of the movement is “where there is smoke there is fire.” Where there are manifestations, there is the Holy Spirit. In practice, and even in the teachings of some such as Ralph Martin, it seems that the corollory is implied, ie. “where there is no smoke, there is no fire.”

Using that same metaphor I would say this. “The hottest flame burns smoke free.”

 

[East_and_West]

Have not some saints experienced ecstasies? Why do you begrudge young people of this experience as well?
Your assumption that the whole movement is bunk because there is not an ancient history to it is just that: an assumption. What would you say to the St. Anthony the Abbot? He started the monastic movement. Nobody had before thought about living alone to contemplate. How is that different?
I disagree that the charismatic movement is cultic. I firmly believe that it is from God.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is simply praying for special graces.
CCC 2003- “Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning ‘favour’, ‘gratuitous gift’, ‘benefit’. Whatever their character–sometimes it is extraordinary, such s the gift of miracles or of tongues-- charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace, and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.”

Confirmation does indeed impart the Holy Spirit on us, but why not ask for more?
I (and the other Core members of my parish’s LifeTeen group) do acknowledge the dangers of a purely emotional relationship with God, and we have worked through several situations when God has deprived several of our teens of the “God-high” that they sought, but guess what? God doesn’t give His children anything they can’t handle, and those experiences have only served to draw those teens even closer to Him.

The saints had mystical experience that were proceeded by YEARS of suffering, penance, and struggle to achieve a high state of holiness. And even then, those mystical experiences were described as a sober inebriation. The fact of the matter is that nothing that I have seen in the Charismatic movement can be described in this matter. Instead, we have a bunch of people who have not and do not want to follow the same path of holiness that the saints did trying to get a quick fix the same as they get from drugs. And this quick fix is not a growth in holiness, but rather a hyper-emotional experience that has nothing to do with picking up one’s cross and carrying it. Rather, its all about “me”. The fact of the matter is that I have seen a multitude of teenagers have these experiences and as soon as the “high” and feelings wear off, they fall away because this charismatic nonsense has taught them that faith in Christ is all about feelings.
Your quote from the Catechism does not support the Charismatic position at all. I agree that the Holy Spirit gives us gifts and Charisms. But the Quote does not say that the Holy Spirit will throw you on the ground and cause you to thrash about in a manner similar to that of the pagan cult of bachus of dionysius. It does not attempt to create a new an unknown sacrament a “Baptism in the Spirit” set in opposition to the true Baptism in the Spirit, Baptism and Confirmation.
You must remember that I grew up in the Charistmatic movement. I was “slain in the Spirit” and I used to “Speak in tongues”. I was involved in all of this. But the fact of the matter is that when the rough times came, this nonsensical experiential faith of retreat highs did not last. It took me years to marry faith and reason and begin to understand what a true relationship with our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ really is. If I had not weaned myself off this dangerous charismatic movement, then I would have eventually lost my faith.
As for you statement concerning monasticism. Yes the movement itself may have been new. However, it was NOT based on new priniciples. It was the same time tested principles of sacrifice, self-denial, carrying one’s cross, and walking with Our Lord everyday. The Charismatic movement, on the other hand, is based on the anti-Christian principles of selfishness, over-emotionalism, and loss of self control.
I do not write this to offend. I do so because I know the dangers of this movement and I don’t want to see others harmed because of it. I will pray for you, my dear friend in Christ.

 

[steve99]

Unfortunately I am going away for a few days so cannot really participate in this thread. But you might like to look at this link regarding Healing & Charismatic Renewal.
myweb.tiscali.co.uk/renewaluk/gn0201/hlgcollq.htm

 

[Spirithound]

The saints had mystical experience that were proceeded by YEARS of suffering, penance, and struggle to achieve a high state of holiness. And even then, those mystical experiences were described as a sober inebriation. The fact of the matter is that nothing that I have seen in the Charismatic movement can be described in this matter. Instead, we have a bunch of people who have not and do not want to follow the same path of holiness that the saints did trying to get a quick fix the same as they get from drugs. And this quick fix is not a growth in holiness, but rather a hyper-emotional experience that has nothing to do with picking up one’s cross and carrying it. Rather, its all about “me”. The fact of the matter is that I have seen a multitude of teenagers have these experiences and as soon as the “high” and feelings wear off, they fall away because this charismatic nonsense has taught them that faith in Christ is all about feelings.
Your quote from the Catechism does not support the Charismatic position at all. I agree that the Holy Spirit gives us gifts and Charisms. But the Quote does not say that the Holy Spirit will throw you on the ground and cause you to thrash about in a manner similar to that of the pagan cult of bachus of dionysius. It does not attempt to create a new an unknown sacrament a “Baptism in the Spirit” set in opposition to the true Baptism in the Spirit, Baptism and Confirmation.
You must remember that I grew up in the Charistmatic movement. I was “slain in the Spirit” and I used to “Speak in tongues”. I was involved in all of this. But the fact of the matter is that when the rough times came, this nonsensical experiential faith of retreat highs did not last. It took me years to marry faith and reason and begin to understand what a true relationship with our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ really is. If I had not weaned myself off this dangerous charismatic movement, then I would have eventually lost my faith.
As for you statement concerning monasticism. Yes the movement itself may have been new. However, it was NOT based on new priniciples. It was the same time tested principles of sacrifice, self-denial, carrying one’s cross, and walking with Our Lord everyday. The Charismatic movement, on the other hand, is based on the anti-Christian principles of selfishness, over-emotionalism, and loss of self control.
I do not write this to offend. I do so because I know the dangers of this movement and I don’t want to see others harmed because of it. I will pray for you, my dear friend in Christ.

Thank you for your prayers. I know they will do very much good for me and all those associated with the charismatic movement.
I understand where you’re coming from, and I have no doubt that you are following God’s calling for you, but I urge you not to condemn the entire movement based on your own limited experience (I realize that your experience is more extensive than mine, but you are only one person and you can’t have observed the whole movement).
In my parish, we take any gifts we receive as gifts, and not as substitutes for the sacraments. I’ve also never seen anybody “thrash”…
I realize that “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” is a rather unfortunate name, since it is not baptism, but just praying for a stirring of the Spirit.
Thank you again for your prayers and your charity.

 

[East_and_West]

Thank you for your prayers. I know they will do very much good for me and all those associated with the charismatic movement.
I understand where you’re coming from, and I have no doubt that you are following God’s calling for you, but I urge you not to condemn the entire movement based on your own limited experience (I realize that your experience is more extensive than mine, but you are only one person and you can’t have observed the whole movement).
In my parish, we take any gifts we receive as gifts, and not as substitutes for the sacraments. I’ve also never seen anybody “thrash”…
I realize that “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” is a rather unfortunate name, since it is not baptism, but just praying for a stirring of the Spirit.
Thank you again for your prayers and your charity.

Many Blessings my dear friend in Christ. Please keep me in your prayers.