Certain video too uncharitable toward Martin Luther?

[Contarini]

The Deuterocanonical books were removed by publishers who wanted to save paper, and thus money, on not printing the books.

I don’t think it was just about saving money. By that time a radical, Enlightenment, “common-sense” version of sola scriptura was flourishing (the version that most Catholics think all Protestants believe, and which some Protestants have therefore labeled “solo scriptura” to distinguish it from the classic Protestant view). I know that there was some debate over whether Bible Society printings designed for distribution in Catholic countries should include the Apocrypha, and that one argument against this was the desire not to create “confusion.” That fear of “confusion” was typical of the era.

The same attitude is, of course, alive and well on this forum

Edwin

 

[benjohnson]

The Deuterocanonical books were removed by publishers who wanted to save paper, and thus money, on not printing the books.

In my poor reading, it looks like the Westminster Confession was the document that finally marked the removed the Deuterocanonical books in the English world - the English bible societies followed suit.

“The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the Canon of Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings.”

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Hey Jon; I agree. By the way, I always thought it was kind of strange that Martin Luther would post the 95 Theses on October 31 of 1517 and then, about a year later, make the following statement:

“I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity. . . . That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St, Peter and St. Paul, forty-six Popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome Hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the Roman church with special favor. Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better. We must not separate from God on account of any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account of the multitude of the ungodly. There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body. For love can do all things, and nothing is difficult to those who are united.”

Martin Luther to Pope Leo X, January 6, 1519…

The 95 Theses weren’t proposing schism. They were scholarly propositions on indulgences that Luther wanted to be debated in Wittenberg.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

“The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the Canon of Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings.”

I don’t think Luther would have ever agreed with the Calvinists on this one.

 

[joe370]

The 95 Theses weren’t proposing schism. They were scholarly propositions on indulgences that Luther wanted to be debated in Wittenberg.

I agree.

 

[Stilldreamn]

In my poor reading, it looks like the Westminster Confession was the document that finally marked the removed the Deuterocanonical books in the English world - the English bible societies followed suit.

“The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the Canon of Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings.”

Happily change is in the air for “some” English speakers!

from Pr. Paul McCain’s blog, Cyberbrethren:

“We wrestled with the question of whether or not to include the Apocryphal books in The Lutheran Study Bible. For three reasons, we finally decided not to. First, the Apocypha is so little known among Lutherans today that simply to include it in TLSB would have caused a ruckus and consternation among most of our fellow English speaking Lutherans who know nothing at all about the Apocrypha. We felt we would be putting something in front of people who have had little, to no, opportunity to learn and understand what these books are, from their pastors. It would cause potentially very serious offense and confusion, at this point in time. Second, there was no published translation of the Apocrypha available in English, in the ESV translation when we had to make a decision about this. Unfortunately, the Oxford edition comes too late for our Bible. Third, there are next to no resource materials available on the Apocryphal books from which we can draw notes and commentary. Simply put, English speaking Lutheran pastors, professors and theologians have not done any work on these books. So, for these three reasons they will not be in TLSB. But perhaps a future edition will be able to include them.”

 

[kbwall]

I didn’t find anything in that video uncharitable at all. I feel some Catholics are too worried about being uncharitable, that they’re afraid to acknowledge false teachings and lies for what they are.

There’s no getting around that Martin Luther did little good, and the effects of what he’s done extend to modern day. Yes, there was corruption in the Church, and Martin luther might’ve started out good by pointing it out, but starting his own church and making up heretical doctrines was not the way to go about it. Martin Luther ripped out seven books of the Bible, successfully divided Christianity, and called the Pope of his time the antichrist.

Today, we have Christians that actively hate the Catholic Church. Some are so ignorant as to say that we are the ones who edited the Bible. They call us brainwashed because they don’t want to examine the facts. I could say a lot more things about Protestantism, but that would be uncharitable. Who do we have to thank for all these things? Martin Luther, the first person to go and make his own church, making it OK.

 

[gcnuss]

Happily change is in the air for “some” English speakers!

from Pr. Paul McCain’s blog, Cyberbrethren:

“We wrestled with the question of whether or not to include the Apocryphal books in The Lutheran Study Bible. For three reasons, we finally decided not to. First, the Apocypha is so little known among Lutherans today that simply to include it in TLSB would have caused a ruckus and consternation among most of our fellow English speaking Lutherans who know nothing at all about the Apocrypha. We felt we would be putting something in front of people who have had little, to no, opportunity to learn and understand what these books are, from their pastors. It would cause potentially very serious offense and confusion, at this point in time. Second, there was no published translation of the Apocrypha available in English, in the ESV translation when we had to make a decision about this. Unfortunately, the Oxford edition comes too late for our Bible. Third, there are next to no resource materials available on the Apocryphal books from which we can draw notes and commentary. Simply put, English speaking Lutheran pastors, professors and theologians have not done any work on these books. So, for these three reasons they will not be in TLSB. But perhaps a future edition will be able to include them.”

It is worth noting that Concordia Publishing House, the publishing arm of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, has recently released a Lutheran commentary on the Apocryphal books. I have purchased it but haven’t yet made much progress in reading through it, so I can’t give a review of it. I do look forward to reading it.

 

[RyanBlack]

I didn’t find anything in that video uncharitable at all. I feel some Catholics are too worried about being uncharitable, that they’re afraid to acknowledge false teachings and lies for what they are.

There’s no getting around that Martin Luther did little good, and the effects of what he’s done extend to modern day. Yes, there was corruption in the Church, and Martin luther might’ve started out good by pointing it out, but starting his own church and making up heretical doctrines was not the way to go about it. Martin Luther ripped out seven books of the Bible, successfully divided Christianity, and called the Pope of his time the antichrist.

Today, we have Christians that actively hate the Catholic Church. Some are so ignorant as to say that we are the ones who edited the Bible. They call us brainwashed because they don’t want to examine the facts. I could say a lot more things about Protestantism, but that would be uncharitable. Who do we have to thank for all these things? Martin Luther, the first person to go and make his own church, making it OK.

Anti-Catholic Protestants are not the only ones guilty of not wanting to examine the facts. Anti-Protestant Catholics are often guilty of that as well, so let’s not be naive. What Luther did did not happen in an historical vacuum. Had abuse and corruption among Catholic clergy (in some cases going all the way up to the papacy itself) not been as much of a problem as it actually was, the Protestant Reformation might not have ever happened. When Catholics blame the whole sad affair on Protestants, it makes it look as if Catholics are the ones who have a problem facing the truth. Catholics like Leo X are no less to blame for the fracturing of Christianity than are Protestants like Luther.

 

[JonNC]

Anti-Catholic Protestants are not the only ones guilty of not wanting to examine the facts. Anti-Protestant Catholics are often guilty of that as well, so let’s not be naive. What Luther did did not happen in an historical vacuum. Had abuse and corruption among Catholic clergy (in some cases going all the way up to the papacy itself) not been as much of a problem as it actually was, the Protestant Reformation might not have ever happened. When Catholics blame the whole sad affair on Protestants, it makes it look as if Catholics are the ones who have a problem facing the truth. Catholics like Leo X are no less to blame for the fracturing of Christianity than are Protestants like Luther.

In fact, the Catholic Catechism says as much. Neither side is off the hook for division.

Jon

 

[Ranp]

Luther thought the Catholic Church was teaching not only heresy (heretics always call orthodoxy heresy, by the way) but another religion, another way of salvation, “another gospel” (Gal 1:6). That’s about as serious a charge as you can imagine.

By what authority did Luther come to his conclusions? Nothing but his own personal authority, which is no authority at all. The Catholic Church speaks with the authority given to it directly by Jesus Christ as described by Holy Scripture. And Jesus Christ give that authority only to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is God-made. The Protestant churches are man-made.

Ran

 

[JonNC]

By what authority did Luther come to his conclusions? Nothing but his own personal authority, which is no authority at all. The Catholic Church speaks with the authority given to it directly by Jesus Christ as described by Holy Scripture. And Jesus Christ give that authority only to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is God-made. The Protestant churches are man-made.

Ran

Who is to say that the real authority isn’t in Eastern Orthodoxy? Where in the early councils is authority given to but one of the partriarchates of the early Church?
The issue of authority has nothing to do with the thread title.

Jon

 

[TertiumQuid]

Hey Jon; I agree. By the way, I always thought it was kind of strange that Martin Luther would post the 95 Theses on October 31 of 1517 and then, about a year later, make the following statement:

“I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity. . . . That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St, Peter and St. Paul, forty-six Popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome Hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the Roman church with special favor. Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better. We must not separate from God on account of any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account of the multitude of the ungodly. There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body. For love can do all things, and nothing is difficult to those who are united.”
Martin Luther to Pope Leo X, January 6, 1519…

Here’s some info on this Luther quote.

Regards, James

 

[october_baby]

Anti-Catholic Protestants are not the only ones guilty of not wanting to examine the facts. Anti-Protestant Catholics are often guilty of that as well, so let’s not be naive. What Luther did did not happen in an historical vacuum. Had abuse and corruption among Catholic clergy (in some cases going all the way up to the papacy itself) not been as much of a problem as it actually was, the Protestant Reformation might not have ever happened. When Catholics blame the whole sad affair on Protestants, it makes it look as if Catholics are the ones who have a problem facing the truth. Catholics like Leo X are no less to blame for the fracturing of Christianity than are Protestants like Luther.

The fact of the matter remains that a scholar named Erasmus chronicled the corruption in the catholic church at that time * but still remained catholic*.Luther aligned himself with
Erasmus at the beginning of his career, but denounced him when he did not convert. As far as reform goes, St. Thersa of Alvia reformed the Carmelite order and so did St John of the
Cross. and as far as corrupt popes go, there were corrupt popesbefore the reformation,
but that did not cause a schism within the church. As a matter of fact, the prices of Germany who sheltered Luther did so not out of conviction, but to have to stop paying
Papal taxes. While the so called “catholic” kings of France and Spain looked on.

 

[RyanBlack]

The fact of the matter remains that a scholar named Erasmus chronicled the corruption in the catholic church at that time * but still remained catholic*.Luther aligned himself with
Erasmus at the beginning of his career, but denounced him when he did not convert. As far as reform goes, St. Thersa of Alvia reformed the Carmelite order and so did St John of the
Cross. and as far as corrupt popes go, there were corrupt popesbefore the reformation,
but that did not cause a schism within the church. As a matter of fact, the prices of Germany who sheltered Luther did so not out of conviction, but to have to stop paying
Papal taxes. While the so called “catholic” kings of France and Spain looked on.

None of which changes the fact that Catholics must share in the blame for the fracturing of the Christianity. The Catholic Church herself teaches this. The CCC, in section 817, states, " In fact, ‘in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - **for which, often enough, **men of both sides were to blame.’"

I’m not saying that Luther and the other Reformers are innocent and have no responsibility for the splintering of Christianity. What I’m saying is that there is also a number of Catholics whose own very grave, scandalous sins contributed to the Protestant Reformation. When Catholics place the entire blame on Luther and other Reformers, it makes us look as if we are ignoring history. It also makes us look rather smug. Furthermore, it does nothing to further the cause of Christian unity; rather, it works against it. There’s plenty of blame to go around. What’s so hard about us admitting that Catholics are to blame as well?

 

[october_baby]

None of which changes the fact that Catholics must share in the blame for the fracturing of the Christianity. The Catholic Church herself teaches this. The CCC, in section 817, states, " In fact, ‘in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - **for which, often enough, **men of both sides were to blame.’"

I’m not saying that Luther and the other Reformers are innocent and have no responsibility for the splintering of Christianity. What I’m saying is that there is also a number of Catholics whose own very grave, scandalous sins contributed to the Protestant Reformation. When Catholics place the entire blame on Luther and other Reformers, it makes us look as if we are ignoring history. It also makes us look rather smug. Furthermore, it does nothing to further the cause of Christian unity; rather, it works against it. There’s plenty of blame to go around. What’s so hard about us admitting that Catholics are to blame as well?

As a former protestant I can tell you about smug, I was smug about the “corrupt catholic church”, before I started RCIA and started studying with an open mind. I would like to
remind you of a quote from Cardinal Newman;“To be aware of history, is to cease being
protestant.” From personal experience I can tell you the protestant church has spawned many a heretical sect. and spawned +30,000 denominations and caused chaos and confusion within the body of christ. And as for the evengelicals, with their attitude of
the catholic church is so wrong, do you REALLY expect christian unity?

 

[benjohnson]

. And as for the evengelicals, with their attitude of
the catholic church is so wrong, do you REALLY expect christian unity?

As a Lutheran, my sincerely pray for christian unity. I am joyed to extend that hope into my own life - the Godparents on my third child are Catholic.

I still say the Catholic church is wrong on a few subjects, but I think the time is coming in this incrtesingly secular world for us to come to a better understanding. And while there is blame enough to go around, there is opportunity enough to go around for us to come together in God’s time.

To do anything less, I feel, is to bury our talents.

But even failing to come together, that if we can’t pray on our knees together, we at least we must stand up together and bring the Gospel to the world again and again.

 

[AbideWithMe]

As a former protestant I can tell you about smug, I was smug about the “corrupt catholic church”, before I started RCIA and started studying with an open mind. I would like to
remind you of a quote from Cardinal Newman;“To be aware of history, is to cease being
protestant.” From personal experience I can tell you the protestant church has spawned many a heretical sect. and spawned +30,000 denominations and caused chaos and confusion within the body of christ. And as for the evengelicals, with their attitude of
the catholic church is so wrong, do you REALLY expect christian unity?

October baby—While you may have been smug as a Protestant, by no means do you represent all, or even most, Protestants. You also mischaracterize Evangelicals, many of whom don’t have an “attitude of the catholic church is so wrong”.

And, there are many Protestant historians, much more “aware of history” than you seem to be, who are still Protestant.

 

[RyanBlack]

As a former protestant I can tell you about smug, I was smug about the “corrupt catholic church”, before I started RCIA and started studying with an open mind. I would like to
remind you of a quote from Cardinal Newman;“To be aware of history, is to cease being
protestant.” From personal experience I can tell you the protestant church has spawned many a heretical sect. and spawned +30,000 denominations and caused chaos and confusion within the body of christ. And as for the evengelicals, with their attitude of
the catholic church is so wrong, do you REALLY expect christian unity?

I’m a former Protestant myself. Southern Baptist on my mother’s side, Pentecostal on my father’s side. I spent time in the Methodist Church and the Episcopal Church. I earned two degrees in theology at a Protestant divinity school (study that was actually vital in my becoming Orthodox, and ultimately Catholic). I really doubt there’s much of anything about Protestantism you could tell me that I don’t already know. BTW, in spite of the fact that I’m very glad no longer to be Protestant, I remain very thankful for the Protestant faith of my grandparents. Apart from the nurturing in the love of Christ I found in those traditions, I might not be a Christian at all.

I will repeat what I’ve said, and what is backed up by the Catechism of the Catholic Church, blame for the fracturing of Christianity does not fall just on Protestants. Catholics share in that responsibility. Failure to acknowledge that does not change this truth. Rather, failure to acknowledge this destroys credibility, if for no other reason that it is so glaringly obvious that there’s plenty of blame to go around.

As for the attitudes of evangelicals, I think you paint with too broad a brush. Not all evangelicals are anti-Catholic. However, the attitudes of evangelicals have nothing to do with our responsibilties: to the truth, to speak and act charitably, and to strive towards achieving Christian unity.

 

[october_baby]

I’m a former Protestant myself. Southern Baptist on my mother’s side, Pentecostal on my father’s side. I spent time in the Methodist Church and the Episcopal Church. I earned two degrees in theology at a Protestant divinity school (study that was actually vital in my becoming Orthodox, and ultimately Catholic). I really doubt there’s much of anything about Protestantism you could tell me that I don’t already know. BTW, in spite of the fact that I’m very glad no longer to be Protestant, I remain very thankful for the Protestant faith of my grandparents. Apart from the nurturing in the love of Christ I found in those traditions, I might not be a Christian at all.

I will repeat what I’ve said, and what is backed up by the Catechism of the Catholic Church, blame for the fracturing of Christianity does not fall just on Protestants. Catholics share in that responsibility. Failure to acknowledge that does not change this truth. Rather, failure to acknowledge this destroys credibility, if for no other reason that it is so glaringly obvious that there’s plenty of blame to go around.

As for the attitudes of evangelicals, I think you paint with too broad a brush. Not all evangelicals are anti-Catholic. However, the attitudes of evangelicals have nothing to do with our responsibilties: to the truth, to speak and act charitably, and to strive towards achieving Christian unity.

I was only talking on personal experience, I am the only catholic in my family- a convert.
There is not just my family who thinks catholicism is wrong, go on other message boards
outside of here and the catholic bashing gets pretty hairy. I’m not saying ALL protestants are catholic bashers, in my experience it’s about 7 out of 10. Just out of curiosity, if you were happy and well educated in protestantism why did you convert? (I’m self taught.)
I know what the ccc teaches, but it seems to me that some here are acting like the
counter-reformation never happened. I’m all for catholics and protestants working together,
I just feel that either catholicism is the one true faith or it isn’t.