Chaldean/ACoE concelebration

[malphono]

This is really a question for our Chaldean members (ronyodish or antgaria or chaldobyzantine,etc), but I’m curious if concelebration is done in the East Syriac tradition, and if, so, under what conditions. So far, at least, I’ve never seen it done in various broadcasts and videos, but I realize that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not done at all. If one of you guys can elucidate a little, I’d appreciate it.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I would be shocked and disturbed if any Catholic priests concelebrate with non-Catholic priests.

 

[malphono]

I would be shocked and disturbed if any Catholic priests concelebrate with non-Catholic priests.

Thank you but that wasn’t the question.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Strictly speaking, none of the Eastern Liturgies “have” con-celebration, but as you know they are improvised sometimes, as needed.

Here’s one by the Assyrian Church of the East in India (Chaldean-Syrian Church):
youtube.com/watch?v=df1PbqgcjxE

 

[Peter_J]

This is really a question for our Chaldean members (ronyodish or antgaria or chaldobyzantine,etc), but I’m curious if concelebration is done in the East Syriac tradition, and if, so, under what conditions. So far, at least, I’ve never seen it done in various broadcasts and videos, but I realize that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not done at all. If one of you guys can elucidate a little, I’d appreciate it.

Good question.

 

[ronyodish]

This is really a question for our Chaldean members (ronyodish or antgaria or chaldobyzantine,etc), but I’m curious if concelebration is done in the East Syriac tradition, and if, so, under what conditions. So far, at least, I’ve never seen it done in various broadcasts and videos, but I realize that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not done at all. If one of you guys can elucidate a little, I’d appreciate it.

malphono,

Here is some information, take from here:

==============================
C. “Concelebration”: In the Chaldean Rite, there should be only one main celebrant and he is the only one who may: 1) say the first prayer of the Liturgy, all the salutations, and the final blessing, 2) make the Presentation of the Gifts, 3) pray the Eucharistic Prayer, 4) perform the Breaking and Signing Rite, and 5) receive Holy Communion first. The meaning of con-celebration in the Chaldean Rite is that other priests or bishops assisting the main celebrant at the Liturgy may, in addition to praying for him according to his request, pray any of the prayers besides the ones noted above; for example: the prayers of the hymns Lakhu Mara and Qaddysha Alaha, the prayers said before and after the Lord’s Prayer, or the prayers said after Communion. They may not pray the Eucharistic Prayer “together” with the celebrating priest, except the paragraph in the third Ghanta beginning “And we also, O Lord…” and ending, “as he taught us,” and the Epiclesis, that is, the section beginning “Thus now…” and ending “who have pleased you.”​

God bless,

Rony

 

[malphono]

malphono,

Here is some information, take from here:

Tawdi, Rony.

Just for the sake of clarity and good order, one reason I asked is that, despite the fact that there are often multiple clergy present, I’ve yet to see other than one celebrant in broadcasts from St Peter’s in El Cajon. Any other priests present are never vested (except for a stole at communion or if giving the sermon), do not approach the altar, and do not take an active role.

But now that I think of it, I do recall the enthronement of Mar Louis-Raphael, and if memory serves, Mar Youhannan Zora was main celebrant with a good number of others vested and presumably concelebraing. Whether there were priests along with the bishops I don’t recall. (I think may have saved that video somewhere but can’t put my hand on it at the moment, and I’m not in the mood right now to play with google. )

If my memory is correct, then, I imagine that Mar Sarhad’s note on concelebration addresses something that, while it can happen in certain cases, is certainly not common. Perhaps it’s the case, as it seems to be in SyroMalankara’s video link, that such occurs during special offices, e.g. ordinations, maybe consecration of a church, etc? That would seem to make sense to me.

Again thanks. As always, your (name removed by moderator)ut is appreciated.

 

[ronyodish]

Perhaps it’s the case, as it seems to be in SyroMalankara’s video link, that such occurs during special offices, e.g. ordinations, maybe consecration of a church, etc?

Here is an article with pictures on the consecration liturgy of Mar Paulus Benjamin of the ACE, who was consecrated Bishop for the eparchy of the Eastern USA. It shows that while their Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV was the main consecrator/celebrant/presider, the Bishops of their Holy Synod assisted him by acting as co-consecrators:

news.assyrianchurch.org/2012/06/18/his-grace-mar-paulus-benjamin-consecrated-bishop-for-eastern-usa-diocese/3890

God bless,

Rony

 

[Peter_J]

I would be shocked and disturbed if any Catholic priests concelebrate with non-Catholic priests.

I don’t think it’s so bad if both sides are in favor of it. I’m more bothered by Catholics who push for intercommunion and concelebration with Orthodox, when the Orthodox clearly don’t want it.

 

[malphono]

I don’t think it’s so bad if both sides are in favor of it. I’m more bothered by Catholics who push for intercommunion and concelebration with Orthodox, when the Orthodox clearly don’t want it.

It’s off-topic, but I tend to agree. In such cases, it would seem to be a misguided (as usual) notion of post-conciliar “ecumenism” that prompts such things from the “in union with Rome” side. That said, though, if the Orthodox parties are agreeable, or if the invitation comes from the Orthodox side, it could provide a good opportunity for their “in union with Rome” counterparts to actually learn a few things about praxis.

 

[ronyodish]

To continue on this off-topic…

The CCEO does forbid concelebration with non-Catholics:

“Catholic priests are forbidden to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy with non-Catholic priests or ministers” (Canon 702).

So, Catholics can be just as hesitant about it as the Orthodox.

God bless,

Rony

 

[Peter_J]

It’s off-topic, but I tend to agree. In such cases, it would seem to be a misguided (as usual) notion of post-conciliar “ecumenism” that prompts such things from the “in union with Rome” side. That said, though, **if the Orthodox parties are agreeable, **or if the invitation comes from the Orthodox side, it could provide a good opportunity for their “in union with Rome” counterparts to actually learn a few things about praxis.

Yes, I was thinking about that sort of thing when I posted earlier: i.e. what if a Orthodox group (or a Catholic group for that matter) goes against the general Orthodox (resp. Catholic) mentality and engages in concelebration with non-Orthodox (resp. non-Catholics).

On the Catholic side, I don’t think it would make too many waves as long as it was with Orthodox or ACoE. (If it was with, say, Anglicans or Lutherans, then watch out!)

 

[AnthonyJ]

Personally as a Catholic I’d be happy to see Catholics and Orthodox concelebrating. I don’t think the Orthodox would feel the same way though.

Yes, I was thinking about that sort of thing when I posted earlier: i.e. what if a Orthodox group (or a Catholic group for that matter) goes against the general Orthodox (resp. Catholic) mentality and engages in concelebration with non-Orthodox (resp. non-Catholics).

On the Catholic side, I don’t think it would make too many waves as long as it was with Orthodox or ACoE. (If it was with, say, Anglicans or Lutherans, then watch out!)

 

[Peter_J]

Personally as a Catholic I’d be happy to see Catholics and Orthodox concelebrating.

What about e.g. Catholics and Anglicans?

 

[chaldobyzantine]

Back in May, the Chaldean Patriarch went to Australia to visit the Cathedral of the ACoE in Sydney and concelebrated Ramsha vespers (from the Bishop’s throne). It looked like a joyous occasion and a genuine effort towards unity with the ACoE.

I’ve never seen concelebration between ACoE and CCC clergy during Holy Qurbana though. Hope this helps.

youtube.com/watch?v=xTEyvaEwKmY

God Bless

 

[ronyodish]

Back in May, the Chaldean Patriarch went to Australia to visit the Cathedral of the ACoE in Sydney and concelebrated Ramsha vespers (from the Bishop’s throne). It looked like a joyous occasion and a genuine effort towards unity with the ACoE.

I’ve never seen concelebration between ACoE and CCC clergy during Holy Qurbana though. Hope this helps.

youtube.com/watch?v=xTEyvaEwKmY

Ah, yes, thank you for posting this video. This happened a few months ago, but I had forgotten about it.

I hope these small little gatherings like that can spark a yearning for a future bond of peace and unity.

God bless,

Rony

 

[AnthonyJ]

No, because their orders have been declared invalid by the Catholic Church.

What about e.g. Catholics and Anglicans?

 

[Peter_J]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnthonyJ
Personally as a Catholic I’d be happy to see Catholics and Orthodox concelebrating.

What about e.g. Catholics and Anglicans?

No, because their orders have been declared invalid by the Catholic Church.

That’s what I thought you would say, but I didn’t want to “assume”.

So if Catholics can object to concelebration with Anglicans, it’s not too far-fetched to think that Orthodox can object to concelebration.

 

[Aramis]

That’s what I thought you would say, but I didn’t want to “assume”.

So if Catholics can object to concelebration with Anglicans, it’s not too far-fetched to think that Orthodox can object to concelebration.

What is surprising is that some Orthodox don’t. Like a portion of the Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church.

 

[AnthonyJ]

Of course they can object. In my first response I stated they wouldn’t agree. I just believe the differences aren’t insurmountable. Yes, I know Orthodox hate when Catholics state that, but I believe they exaggerate the differences. I know they don’t like to hear that either.

That’s what I thought you would say, but I didn’t want to “assume”.

So if Catholics can object to concelebration with Anglicans, it’s not too far-fetched to think that Orthodox can object to concelebration.