Chaldean Catholic Church

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Don’t you think that’s kind of a long time past on which to base a statement that they should do away with latinizations? :confused:

Many years,

Neil
God bless the Chaldeans if they are reversing the senseless Novus-Ordoization of their Liturgy that occurred in certain places after Vatican II.

Pius XI said long ago that he did not want to Latinize the eastern churches but to Catholicize them. Sadly, these wise words have been forgotten.

I had almost 20 years experience attending Liturgy in numerous eastern Catholic churches. The churches are not just being “latinized,” to use a favorite buzzword. They’re being Novus-Ordoized in liturgy and decatholicized in faith.

I realize these comments are a direct affront to the garbage that passes for “updated” theology today. So be it.
 
Hi everyone,

I haven’t posted in the forum for a while. For those interested in learning about the patrimony of the Chaldean Catholics, the eparchy for the Western United States has been presenting some lectures on various subjects. Here is the link to the video/audio presentations:

kaldu.org/WeeklyNews.html

Under the Diocesan Theology Course section.

God bless,

Rony
 
God bless the Chaldeans if they are reversing the senseless Novus-Ordoization of their Liturgy that occurred in certain places after Vatican II.

Pius XI said long ago that he did not want to Latinize the eastern churches but to Catholicize them. Sadly, these wise words have been forgotten.

I had almost 20 years experience attending Liturgy in numerous eastern Catholic churches. The churches are not just being “latinized,” to use a favorite buzzword. They’re being Novus-Ordoized in liturgy and decatholicized in faith.

I realize these comments are a direct affront to the garbage that passes for “updated” theology today. So be it.
Your attitudes regarding the Eastern Churches and your perceptions of them appear to be stuck in a time-warp. I suggest you put aside your attitude and revisit the East to see what it looks like today, rather than continually reverting to what you encountered a decade or more ago.

Many years,

Neil
 
A couple of years ago, I attended the English Qorbano at the local Chaldean parish. Oddly enough, it was shortly after the destruction of several monasteries and churches in Iraq.

It was recited, not sung, no incense (one prayer referring to “the sweet scent of Your holiness” seemed to demand its use; I’m sure there were other places), and I suspect there were other simplifications of the ceremonial. Of course, the priest celebrated versus populum. Communion was distributed from Latin hosts, and in one kind only, in the hand. As this seemed to be the accepted use, I went along with it, though I made sure I had consumed It before I budged from my place.

In fairness, I hope some day to attend a sung celebration with full ceremonial (even though Chaldean/Aramaic/Syriac may be used) in its native liturgical space (I didn’t know the veil was used until now).
 
A couple of years ago, I attended the English Qorbano at the local Chaldean parish. Oddly enough, it was shortly after the destruction of several monasteries and churches in Iraq.
It was recited, not sung, no incense (one prayer referring to “the sweet scent of Your holiness” seemed to demand its use; I’m sure there were other places), and I suspect there were other simplifications of the ceremonial. Of course, the priest celebrated versus populum. Communion was distributed from Latin hosts, and in one kind only, in the hand. As this seemed to be the accepted use, I went along with it, though I made sure I had consumed It before I budged from my place.
In fairness, I hope some day to attend a sung celebration with full ceremonial (even though Chaldean/Aramaic/Syriac may be used) in its native liturgical space (I didn’t know the veil was used until now).
bpbasilphx,

Are you a bishop? Just wondering, so I can address you as Your Grace.

Do you remember which parish you’ve attended?

You should attend the Chaldean Aramaic Holy Mystery/Offering (Raza/Qurbana Qadisha) just so you’ll experience the full ceremony. The English one is still rather a recent phenomenon in the Chaldean Church of the US. It’s gonna take some time before the English one can catch up with the way the Chaldean Aramaic one is celebrated.

There is a reformed liturgy that has taken place recently which should be implemented throughout the world in the future. Kaldu.org refers to it. Some of the reforms include the priest now facing the east (ad orientem) versus the previous practice of facing the people (versus Populum).

The unleavened bread has still not yet been replaced with leavened bread (Assyrians use leavened). There are some other Latinizations that are slowly being addressed by our bishops. Bishop Sarhad is quiet good in trying to restore the Chaldean traditions.

As far as reception of communion in one kind only in the hand. Intinction is now being used in the western states eparchy. The traditional Chaldean practice is actually different from intinction and different from the Roman Catholic practice of reception in the hand. Bishop Sarhad once showed us how it was traditionally done, and it may be how it will be done in the future.

This is how it was done:

First, the person comes up to the front and places his hands on top of the incense bowl without touching the bowl, but just a little above the bowl so as to allow the smoke of the incense to purify the palms of one’s hands. Then the person goes to the priest with hands purified and the priest places the Eucharist/Qurbana in the person’s hands. Without picking up the Eucharist with the fingers or raising the Eucharist to one’s mouth, the person bows down before the Eucharist and picks up the Eucharist with his tongue.

I thought that was pretty cool.

God bless,

Rony
 
This is how it was done:

First, the person comes up to the front and places his hands on top of the incense bowl without touching the bowl, but just a little above the bowl so as to allow the smoke of the incense to purify the palms of one’s hands. Then the person goes to the priest with hands purified and the priest places the Eucharist/Qurbana in the person’s hands. Without picking up the Eucharist with the fingers or raising the Eucharist to one’s mouth, the person bows down before the Eucharist and picks up the Eucharist with his tongue.

I thought that was pretty cool.

God bless,

Rony
Yes, I heard that the Bishop explained this and it would be a beautiful thing if we all did it this way IMO.

Btw, rony, are you aware that we have 5 men going into a house for preistly discernment?
Johnny B, my brother, Andrew, Clint, and Devon? Amazing isn’t it? Last year the three ladies were consecrated and now this!
 
Btw, rony, are you aware that we have 5 men going into a house for preistly discernment?
Johnny B, my brother, Andrew, Clint, and Devon? Amazing isn’t it? Last year the three ladies were consecrated and now this!
Wow, I did not know that 👍

Johnny’s BOL group, and the young energetic Fr. Andy, must be having a strong influence on them. Hopefully at least one of them, with God’s help of course, becomes a priest.

Very good news, thanks for letting me know.

God bless,

Rony
 
Wow, I did not know that 👍

Johnny’s BOL group, and the young energetic Fr. Andy, must be having a strong influence on them. Hopefully at least one of them, with God’s help of course, becomes a priest.

Very good news, thanks for letting me know.

God bless,

Rony
Are you also aware of the news between Mar Bawai Soro of the Assyrian Church of the East and his priests and their parishioners possibly re-uniting with the Catholic Church?
 
Are you also aware of the news between Mar Bawai Soro of the Assyrian Church of the East and his priests and their parishioners possibly re-uniting with the Catholic Church?
Mar Bawai’s statement of a week or so ago can be read here. . Reception of Mar Bawai and his supporters into the Chaldean Church would, undoubtedly, be viewed negatively by Mar Dinkha and the Assyrian Church.

It’s impossible to know with certainty what the consequences of such a union would be for the ongoing dialogue between the Assyrian and Catholic Churches, which has been fruitful and harmonious until now. That the Assyrians would see it as cause to break off participation on the Commission seems very conceivable - and might give Rome pause.

The alternative, mentioned by Mar Bawai, would be unification on his part with the Ancient Church of the East. That seems to be a turn of events that would have less appeal to him, since the ACE and the Catholic Church have not developed a dialogue anywhere near that achieved with the Assyrians - and Mar Bawai was highly instrumental in the latter (which, of course, factored into the circumstances that resulted in him becoming separated from the Synod).

Prayers for a favorable resolution of this extremely difficult situation.

Many years,

Neil
 
Are you also aware of the news between Mar Bawai Soro of the Assyrian Church of the East and his priests and their parishioners possibly re-uniting with the Catholic Church?
After the Assyrian Church unjustly excommunicated him, if it does happen that Mar Bawai and his eparchy enters into full ecclesiastical communion with the Church, he will bring us a good amount of knowledge and experience as a bishop. This will most likely revitalize our Chaldean Church in the western states.

Then there is the likelihood or even certainty that this will complicate our relationship with the Assyrian Church. It could further delay the full ecclesiastical communion that we want to occur between the whole Assyrian Church (their Patriarch and all his various eparchies) and us Chaldeans.

I hope he and his eparchy chooses our Church, but then we’ll see how Rome handles this situation in light of the possibility of the Assyrian Church breaking off ecumenical talks with the Catholic Church.

We’ll see what happens.

God bless,

Rony
 
<<Are you also aware of the news between Mar Bawai Soro of the Assyrian Church of the East and his priests and their parishioners possibly re-uniting with the Catholic Church?>>

I read that, though he might rather seek reconciliation with Mar Dinkha’s jurisdiction.

Either way, I rejoice. Every time a schism is healed, every time there is reconciliation between Christians, we ourselves are one step closer to the unity that Christ Himself demands.

That’s the way I see it.
 
Mar Bawai’s statement of a week or so ago can be read here. .

Mar Bawai wrote:

We are and shall always remain faithful to the Lord, worshipping Him within the Church of the East patrimony. Practically speaking, this means that we as a Diocese (i.e., a bishop, priests, deacons & faithful) shall unite with one of the two remaining branches of the Church of the East Tradition: either the Ancient Church of the East or the Chaldean Catholic Church.
I have a question. How do these two churches (Ancient Church of the East and Chaldean Catholic Church), view Syro-Malabar Church of India? My understanding is that they followed the liturgy of Addai and Mari and received bishops from Church of East 16th century. The church has seen several reformations recently (such as re-introducing the Addai and Mari liturgy) Does this church come under East Syriac traditions?
 
<<Are you also aware of the news between Mar Bawai Soro of the Assyrian Church of the East and his priests and their parishioners possibly re-uniting with the Catholic Church?>>

I read that, though he might rather seek reconciliation with Mar Dinkha’s jurisdiction.

Either way, I rejoice. Every time a schism is healed, every time there is reconciliation between Christians, we ourselves are one step closer to the unity that Christ Himself demands.

That’s the way I see it.
Beautiful. I could not have said it better myself! 👍 I agree whole-heartedly.

Pace e Bene
Andrew
 
Shlama sungeo,

Welcome to the forum. I see that you are a Syro-Malabar Catholic, that’s awesome! I’m Chaldean Catholic.

Your Church and my Church are in full ecclesiastical communion with each other, and we share the same basic tradition, though you guys have a distinct Indian adaptation of the tradition.

In the Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches, we both fall under the Chaldean tradition, which is sometimes in scholarship and academics known as the East Syriac tradition.

The Ancient Church of the East, as well as, the Assyrian Church of the East both also use the basics of the East Syriac tradition, but they are not in full ecclesiastical communion with us and the Catholic Church, nor are they in full ecclesiastical communion with each other.

Since you addressed Irish Melkite, I’ll let him give you any further info.

God bless,

Rony
 
I have a question. How do these two churches (Ancient Church of the East and Chaldean Catholic Church), view Syro-Malabar Church of India? My understanding is that they followed the liturgy of Addai and Mari and received bishops from Church of East 16th century. The church has seen several reformations recently (such as re-introducing the Addai and Mari liturgy) Does this church come under East Syriac traditions?
Sungeo,

Welcome. I’m not sure what I can add to what my friend and brother, Rony, has already said. The Ancient Church of the East derived from a schism within the Assyrian Church about 40 years ago. As you say, it serves the Liturgy of Blessed Addai and Mari, as does the Assyrian Church.

I’m not sure of which reformations you speak. The Chaldean Church has recently published a revised version of the Qurbana in an effort to restore itself to its traditions, but the Anaphora used is not that of Blessed Addai and Mari, which lacks explicit Words of Institution. The Ancient Church has not recently instituted any reformations of which I’m aware and it has always used that Anaphora in my recollection.

Many years,

Neil
 
The Chaldean Church has recently published a revised version of the Qurbana in an effort to restore itself to its traditions, but the Anaphora used is not that of Blessed Addai and Mari, which lacks explicit Words of Institution. The Ancient Church has not recently instituted any reformations of which I’m aware and it has always used that Anaphora in my recollection.
What do you mean lacks explicit Words of Institution? What are the original Anaphora of Mar Mari and Mar Addai? Here is an essay on the Anaphora by my Bishop, Mar Jammo.
 
What do you mean lacks explicit Words of Institution? What are the original Anaphora of Mar Mari and Mar Addai? Here is an essay on the Anaphora by my Bishop, Mar Jammo.
HM,

As Mar Jammo writes, in his final sentence
The Quddasha of the Apostles Addai and Mari is a blessing not only to the heirs of that apostolic legacy but to the whole Church uni*versal. Therefore, the recent recognition by the Holy See of the validity of the eucharistic consecration by this venerated anaphora is a tribute to its genuine value since apostolic times
And see, Guidelines for Admission to the Eucharist between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East - particularly paragraph 3, in which it is explained
The Anaphora of Addai and Mari is notable because, from time immemorial, it has been used without a recitation of the Institution Narrative. … the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith on January 17th, 2001 concluded that this Anaphora can be considered valid. H.H. Pope John Paul II has approved this decision. This conclusion rests on three major arguments.
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.
(emphasis mine)

This unique aspect of the Anaphora of the Holy Apostles Addai and Mari has long been recognized, but remained an unresolved topic of discussion until thus addressed and finally accepted as the ancient, venerable, and efficacious prayer that it is.

Many years,

Neil
 
HM,

As Mar Jammo writes, in his final sentence

And see, Guidelines for Admission to the Eucharist between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East - particularly paragraph 3, in which it is explained

(emphasis mine)

This unique aspect of the Anaphora of the Holy Apostles Addai and Mari has long been recognized, but remained an unresolved topic of discussion until thus addressed and finally accepted as the ancient, venerable, and efficacious prayer that it is.

Many years,

Neil
Indeed, Christ said, do this in memory of Me.
 
Shlama sungeo,

Welcome to the forum. I see that you are a Syro-Malabar Catholic, that’s awesome! I’m Chaldean Catholic.

Your Church and my Church are in full ecclesiastical communion with each other, and we share the same basic tradition, though you guys have a distinct Indian adaptation of the tradition.
Hi Rony and Neil,

Thank you for your replies. Yes, I belong to Syro-Malabar Church. I am glad to meet a Chaldean Catholic. And as you mentioned, we share same basic tradition. The difference between the liturgical traditions of Chaldean Catholic and Syro-Malabar Church may be minimal. But they both are culturally different because of the influence from the neighbouring communities that they live. But I still think that there are many cultural aspects in common.

Our process of Indianisation started when our region officially joined the Indian union 1947. Until then, I think that SMC was very much latinised. It was the contribution of Jesuits and Carmalites and started from 1599 onwards. Later, the vernacularisation process of liturgy started during 1960s. All Syriac liturgies were translated to our language – Malayalam. I have few questions here to ask you.
  1. What is the importance of Mar Thoma Cross (or Persian cross) in your church? The origin of this cross is still a dispute in our church. I would like to know whether this cross originated from Church of East. If yes, can anyone explain its meaning and
  2. How important is Mar Thoma tradition in your Church? Is July 3rd, a holy day of obligation?
  3. Is there a group of people in your church who practice strict endogamy?
  4. Do you have any special celebrations on Pesaha Thursday (Maundy Thursday) at your home?
I hope some of you can give answer to these.

Thanks

Sungeo

PS: I am based in the UK now. I would like to know if there is a Chaldean Catholc Church in London or near by areas so that I can experience Addai-Mari Qurbana in Syriac one day!!
 
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