Chaldean Catholic Church

[ronyodish]

1. What is the importance of Mar Thoma Cross (or Persian cross) in your church? The origin of this cross is still a dispute in our church. I would like to know whether this cross originated from Church of East. If yes, can anyone explain its meaning and

It’s a very important symbol of the Chaldean Catholic Church of the East, as well as, the Assyrian and Ancient Churches of the East. There are some variations of it. Currently my eparchy (USA - Western States) uses this variation: Click here

Here is a variation of it that is used in your Syro-Malabar Church, with an explanation: Click here

St. Thomas probably brought a very primitive variation of it, and when the Church of the East expanded all the way into China, a variation of it was brought as well. Click here. In any case, it is a very important symbol for both the Catholic Churches of the East (Chaldean, Syro-Malabar), and other Churches of the East (Assyrian, Ancient).

1. How important is Mar Thoma tradition in your Church? Is July
   3rd, a holy day of obligation?

Very important. Our Patriarch is a successor of Mar Toma. He is considered (along with Addai, Mari, and Aggai) the evangelizers of our people. For the two eparchies in the USA, the feast day of Mar Toma is on July 1. It is not strictly a Holy Day of Obligation, but since it is a feast, a liturgy is celebrated and some Chaldeans participate. This year, it fell on a Sunday, and Sundays are obligatory.

1. Is there a group of people in your church who practice strict endogamy?

Not that I’m aware of. Though some families urge their young to marry only Chaldeans, the Church allows marriage with non-Chaldeans.

1. Do you have any special celebrations on Pesaha Thursday (Maundy Thursday) at your home?

At home, not really, but at Church, yes, we celebrate that day. There might be some celebrations at home in the villages of Iraq that I’m not aware of.

PS: I am based in the UK now. I would like to know if there is a Chaldean Catholc Church in London or near by areas so that I can experience Addai-Mari Qurbana in Syriac one day!!

This link says that there is a Chaldean Church in London with this number (208) 9976370.

God bless,

Rony

 

[Irish_Melkite]

1. Is there a group of people in your church who practice strict endogamy?

Sungeo,

You’re referring, of course, to the Kanaites.

For those who are unfamiliar The Knanya are Oriental Catholic and Orthodox descended from 72 families of Christian Jews, comprising about 400 persons, who emigrated to India in three ships about 345 AD under the leadership of Knaithomman or Thomas the Cananite. The immigrants are said to have been accompanied by a bishop, whom history records as Uraha Mar Yausef (Joseph), four presbyters, and deacons.

The Knanaites, a strictly endogenous community, retain particular liturgical, devotional, and cultural practices unique to themselves. By the Apostolic Brief Universi Christiani, Pope Saint Pius X erected a personal jurisdiction (now the autonomous Metropolitan Arch-Eparchy of Kottayam) for them within the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.

Although formal Knanya jurisdictions exist only in that Church and the Syrian Orthodox Jacobite (Indian) Church, there are Knanaites within each of the Indian ecclesial communities (other than the Latin Catholic) and, officially or otherwise, provisions are made to accommodate their praxis in all of the Churches of Saint Thomas Christians.

The Syro-Malabarese have an Episcopal Vicarate in their Metropolitan Archeparchy comprised of fifteen parishes for Malankara Knanaites. Those parishes - in a Church of the Chaldean Rite - canonically serve the Knanaite Usage of the Malankara Rescension of the Antiochene Rite - a rare thing (cross ritual usage within a Church sui iuris.

The Syro-Malankara themselves have a single parish in their Arch-Eparchy of Trivandrum of the Syro-Malankara and another single parish in their Eparchy of Tiruvalla of the Syro-Malankara which serve according to the Knanaite Usage of the Malankara Rescension.

Many years,

Neil

 

[HailMary]

Wow, I did not know that

Johnny’s BOL group, and the young energetic Fr. Andy, must be having a strong influence on them. Hopefully at least one of them, with God’s help of course, becomes a priest.

Very good news, thanks for letting me know.

God bless,

Rony

pray for these men.
kaldu.org/2007/11_November/weeklynews_11_25_E1.html

Glory to you Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I still don’t understand why all of the work at reconciliation between the Assyrians and the Catholics in the 1990s seems to have gone for naught. What I do know is that the Assyrians were not interested in participating in our recent Iraqi benefit and would not tell me why. Thankfully, some Assyrians did come despite the official refusal to cooperate. Some Assyrians have contacted me not only to ask for my help in the future but to offer theirs in fund raising and telling the Iraqi story. Pray for our efforts.

CDL

 

[ronyodish]

HailMary,

Do you by any chance know this Assyrian Church of the East guy?

Anthony Garia
Reader and Member
Mar Yosip Assyrian Youth Ministry
San Jose, California

I just read this nice article from him where he defends Mar Bawai, Ecumenism, the Universal Church and Papal Primacy.

If you have time, you can read it here under the title: In Defense of Our Faith

I’m thinking he could be a possible future speaker for the BOL youth group in case Mar Bawai and his people enter into full ecclesial communion with us.

God bless,

Rony

 

[ronyodish]

I notice that this thread has five starts next to it. What do they refer to?

Rony

 

[ronyodish]

Nevermind, I just figured it out. It is the rating of this thread.

God bless,

Rony

 

[Irish_Melkite]

I still don’t understand why all of the work at reconciliation between the Assyrians and the Catholics in the 1990s seems to have gone for naught. What I do know is that the Assyrians were not interested in participating in our recent Iraqi benefit and would not tell me why. Thankfully, some Assyrians did come despite the official refusal to cooperate. Some Assyrians have contacted me not only to ask for my help in the future but to offer theirs in fund raising and telling the Iraqi story. Pray for our efforts.

Carson,

My guess - the Assyrians are. presently, still smarting from the episode involving Mar Bawai, who was one of the principals in the dialogue between itself and Rome.

Mar Bawai’s “push” (for lack of a better word) for the two Churches to enter communio in sacris was unexpected and felt by the Assyrian hierarchy to be embarrassing in its phrasing (which came across, in leaked text, as very much a submission, rather than a joinder). The progress of dialogue was certainly set back and no one has benefited from his remarks, with the possible exception (arguably) of Mar Bawai himself, who has become (figuratively) a hot addition to one’s list of dinner guests. - although I’m sure that was never his intention.

As a result, I suspect that Assyrians do not presently want to be seen as linked directly with Catholics in any regard and might be even less inclined to be seen as supportive of any venture in which they could be perceived as less than a full and equal partner (e.g., Catholic church sponsors event, Assyrian participation invited)

Remember that this is one of the very few instances in which the number of faithful in a Catholic Church sui iuris (Chaldean) far outnumbers the combined population of its counterparts (the Assyrian and Ancient Churches). So, the risk of being lost in any merger is great. Among the positive factors to date had been the ongoing filial exhibiton by the Chaldeans - who have consistently avoided muscle-flexing, as had Rome - which demonstrated extraordinary sensitivity in this instance.

This is a proud people involved and HH Mar Dinkha himself has shepherded his Church very skillfully throughout Rome’s courting of it. The effort to attempt consummating marriage before a formal betrothal was plighted was a costly mistake, it seems, and trust is not yet restored.

My :twocents: - and purely personal opinion.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Irish_Melkite]

sungeo:

1. Is there a group of people in your church who practice strict endogamy?

Irish Melkite:

You’re referring, of course, to the Kanaites.

Sungeo,

The direct answer to your question, which sort of got lost in my explanation of the Kanaites, is “no”. They have no presence or counterpart in the Chadean Church itself nor in any of the Churches sprung from the East or West Syriac tradition, outside of those which are native to India.

Many years,

Neil

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Carson,

My guess - the Assyrians are. presently, still smarting from the episode involving Mar Bawai, who was one of the principals in the dialogue between itself and Rome.

Mar Bawai’s “push” (for lack of a better word) for the two Churches to enter communio in sacris was unexpected and felt by the Assyrian hierarchy to be embarrassing in its phrasing (which came across, in leaked text, as very much a submission, rather than a joinder). The progress of dialogue was certainly set back and no one has benefited from his remarks, with the possible exception (arguably) of Mar Bawai himself, who has become (figuratively) a hot addition to one’s list of dinner guests. - although I’m sure that was never his intention.

As a result, I suspect that Assyrians do not presently want to be seen as linked directly with Catholics in any regard and might be even less inclined to be seen as supportive of any venture in which they could be perceived as less than a full and equal partner (e.g., Catholic church sponsors event, Assyrian participation invited)

Remember that this is one of the very few instances in which the number of faithful in a Catholic Church sui iuris (Chaldean) far outnumbers the combined population of its counterparts (the Assyrian and Ancient Churches). So, the risk of being lost in any merger is great. Among the positive factors to date had been the ongoing filial exhibiton by the Chaldeans - who have consistently avoided muscle-flexing, as had Rome - which demonstrated extraordinary sensitivity in this instance.

This is a proud people involved and HH Mar Dinkha himself has shepherded his Church very skillfully throughout Rome’s courting of it. The effort to attempt consummating marriage before a formal betrothal was plighted was a costly mistake, it seems, and trust is not yet restored.

My :twocents: - and purely personal opinion.

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

I suspected it was something like this. Thank you for your thoughtful analysis. We did contact them early in the process but even then I could see how it would be difficult for them to find a way to participate while not appearing to capitulate. I suspect that it would be difficult to find a way for mutual cooperation in so public a venture as our banquet was.

CDL

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

   		 Are you also aware of the news between Mar Bawai Soro of the Assyrian Church of the East and his priests and their parishioners possibly re-uniting with the Catholic Church?

Mar Bawai would rather setup specifically a Church for all Chaldeans, Assyrians and Syriacs than just reuniting with the Chaldeans. His goal is more to unite Indian Christianity, Syriac Christianity and Assyrian (Chaldean, Assyrian & Ancient) than it is just to solely unite with the Chaldean Catholic Church.

 

[HailMary]

Mar Bawai would rather setup specifically a Church for all Chaldeans, Assyrians and Syriacs than just reuniting with the Chaldeans. His goal is more to unite Indian Christianity, Syriac Christianity and Assyrian (Chaldean, Assyrian & Ancient) than it is just to solely unite with the Chaldean Catholic Church.

Uniting with the Chaldeans would be a great accomplisment since it would be in communion with all the Church, and I hope that it happens.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Mar Bawai would rather setup specifically a Church for all Chaldeans, Assyrians and Syriacs than just reuniting with the Chaldeans. His goal is more to unite Indian Christianity, Syriac Christianity and Assyrian (Chaldean, Assyrian & Ancient) than it is just to solely unite with the Chaldean Catholic Church.

I very much doubt that Mar Bawai has any designs or plans so grand as to involve uniting all of the ecclesia mentioned.

Indian Christians - of both the West and East Syriac Traditions - (with the single exception of the small Assyrian community, IIRC) have been rather consistently disinclined toward readopting the liturgical forms of the Assyrian and Syriac Churches to which they have historic ties. This has included both Oriental Catholic and Oriental Orthodox bodies in India, as well as those of Pre-Chalcedonian heritage. In the instance of the Syro-Malabar Catholics, it has actually been the subject of demonstrations and protests by clergy and laity.

Uniting with the Chaldeans would be a great accomplisment since it would be in communion with all the Church, and I hope that it happens.

While Canon 898 of the CCEO provides:

Canon 898

1. Besides the Roman Pontiff, the patriarch with the consent of the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church, or the metropolitan of a metropolitan Church sui iuris with the consent of the council of hierarchs, can receive a bishop of an Eastern non-Catholic Church into the Catholic Church.

I think that Rome would be inclined to very strongly urge that that the Chaldeans not act with any haste on any such matter, as regards Mar Bawai, since - as noted elsewhere - doing so would likely do much to harm the delicate balance between the Assyrians, Chaldeans, and Rome - achieved over a long period. It would, without question, be seen as interfering in the internal affairs of the Assyrian Church, something that Rome would not want to do - particularly as regards the message it would give to the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Many years,

Neil

 

[sungeo]

Hi Rony, Neil

Thank you very much for your kind replies. Special thanks to Rony for finding out the phone number of Chaldean Catholic church in London. I have some views here (and some questions at the end); some of them are not directly related to Chaldean Catholic or Assyrian Church of east.

Not that I’m aware of. Though some families urge their young to marry only Chaldeans, the Church allows marriage with non-Chaldeans.

The direct answer to your question, which sort of got lost in my explanation of the Kanaites, is “no”. They have no presence or counterpart in the Chadean Church itself nor in any of the Churches sprung from the East or West Syriac tradition, outside of those which are native to India.

I agree with Neil that Knanaya group is a sect among the Syrian Christians of Malabar Coast. Many people think that Knai Thomman legend is exclusive to Knanaya people and are of pure Jewish bloodline. In fact, the Knanaya legend is common to both groups. They emerged as a distinct group after the arrival of Portuguese only. In fact, the traditional and ritual characteristics of Knanayas are also seen among the non-Knannaya Syrian Christians too. And both groups have west Asian features too. The difference may be only in folksongs and some rituals during marriage ceremony. I think that both groups are a mix of native and west Asian settlements. The reason behind the endogamous practice among Knanaya people is not known entirely.

Syrian Christians of Kerala lived in a society where caste system existed. In fact, the revolt against the Portuguese Catholics was not based on faith. It happened due to political and cultural conflicts. The Portuguese converted many people from several castes and attempted to mix them with the Syrian Christians. The Syrian Christians had high social status and therefore they didn’t accept this newly converts among them and the problems started from there. Eventually, the Coonan cross oath took place and Latin Catholic Church became the church for all newly converts and those Syrian Christians mixed with them.

At home, not really, but at Church, yes, we celebrate that day. There might be some celebrations at home in the villages of Iraq that I’m not aware of.

There are several Jewish rituals and traditions seen among the Syrian Christians of Kerala. The strongest one is the observance of pass over night at homes. It is a must in all SMC homes. Mainly, there are two possibilities for this. One possibility is because of our contacts with the Church of East. I read in a book that the Nestorians (I mean, the members of Chaldean Catholic Church and Assyrian church of East - I consider them as an ethnic group, please correct me if I am wrong) belonged to the ten lost Tribes. I have several reasons to believe this. Please share your opinion about this. So I would be grateful if someone can help me (either directly or by introducing a knowledgeable person in this subject living in Iraq or anywhere) in finding out the Jewish customs (past and present) seen among the members of Chaldean Catholic Church and Assyrian church of East.

I have few more questions here. I hope someone can answer them.

1. Is celibacy among Chaldean Catholic priests mandatory? If not, how many (in percentage) priests get married these days?
2. Which language do you (Chaldean Catholic Church and Assyrian church of East) use for your Qurbana? Is it still in Syriac or in English? Is it facing the Madbaha or people?
3. What language do the members of Chaldean Catholic Church and Assyrian church of East speak? Aramaic, Persian or Arabic?
4. How influenced is the Chaldean Catholic church by Latin prayers like Novena and Rosary?
5. Does Chaldean Catholic Church still use peshita bible in its pure form?

Regards and prayers

Sungeo

 

[mardukm]

Welcome brother Sungeo!

I really do love the fact that I am seeing more Oriental Catholics in the Forum (no knock on my awesome Eastern or Latin brethren ).

Abundant Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ronyodish]

There are several Jewish rituals and traditions seen among the Syrian Christians of Kerala. The strongest one is the observance of pass over night at homes. It is a must in all SMC homes. Mainly, there are two possibilities for this. One possibility is because of our contacts with the Church of East. I read in a book that the Nestorians (I mean, the members of Chaldean Catholic Church and Assyrian church of East - I consider them as an ethnic group, please correct me if I am wrong) belonged to the ten lost Tribes. I have several reasons to believe this. Please share your opinion about this. So I would be grateful if someone can help me (either directly or by introducing a knowledgeable person in this subject living in Iraq or anywhere) in finding out the Jewish customs (past and present) seen among the members of Chaldean Catholic Church and Assyrian church of East.

sungeo,

The term “Nestorian” carrys a theological and historical connotation that is officially undesirable for Assyrians, and even moreso for Chaldean Catholics. “East Syriacs” is a better term, and is used academically, but even this term is not completely preferred (at least my Chaldean bishop does not like it). Whenever you want to refer to Assyrians and Chaldeans together, just say “Chaldean-Assyrian”.

The ethnicity of the Chaldeans-Assyrians is a hot topic among some of the Chaldeans and Assyrians. Some Assyrians are very adamant that in our modern times, there is no such thing as an ethnically Chaldean people. Modern Chaldeans, according to them, are really nothing but ethnically Assyrians in full communion with Rome, as opposed to the Assyrians who are not. In other words, they will say that ancient Chaldeans/Babylonians are not the ancestors of today’s Chaldeans. An Assyrian author and activist by the name of Fred Aprim has suggested that the descendants of the ancient Babylonians may be today’s Mandaeans.

I don’t hold to the Assyrian view on this, but I’m not an extremist about it, and they may be right. However, my Christian faith means more to me than what my ethnicity or ancestry is, and sometimes people in both the Chaldean and Assyrian communities take this ethnicity stuff way too far, to the point of making it an obstacle to charity and full communion.

Now, to get back on topic, there are Israelite/Jews in Iraq, and they may be the descendants of the Israelites/Jews of the Exile. It is also possible that through intermarriage of the exiled Israelites/Jews with the Babylonians and Assyrians, today’s Chaldeans-Assyrians may have some Israelite/Jewish blood. I doubt this is the case, and I am more inclined to believe that the current Israelite/Jews of Iraq are the direct descendants of the exiled Israelites/Jews.

The Chaldeans-Assyrians are not the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. To us Chaldeans, Abraham can be seen as a kind of a foreuncle, not forefather, because Abraham himself was from Ur of Chaldea (see Gen. 11:31). The Israelites/Jews can be seen as like cousins to us. Chaldeans-Assyrians-Syriacs speak Aramaic not because we received that from the Israelites/Jews, but because we’ve always been referred to as Aramaeans.

When St. Thomas on his way to India commissioned his disciples Addai and Mari to evangelize our Assyrian-Chaldean people, they brought along with them a non-hellenized or Judaic Christian faith. Both them and us were Semetic, of Shem’s lineage, and we received the message of the Good News in the same language as they were speaking, Aramaic. However, since we do not descend from the Jews like how the Knanites do, they’re Jewishness is much more apparent.

It is then possible that the Syro-Malabars may have picked up the practice of the passover night at homes from the Knanites and not from the Church of the East. I personally have not heard or seen this practiced among the Chaldeans-Assyrians, but I’m not a history scholar or an expert in Chaldean-Assyrian social/religious life as I would have liked . So, I will PM you the email address of Fr. Felix, a Chaldean priest, and he might be able to answer that for you. In fact, you can even email him what you’ve posted here, and maybe he’ll give you a better answer than I have done.

 

[ronyodish]

Continued…

1. Is celibacy among Chaldean Catholic priests mandatory? If not, how many (in percentage) priests get married these days?

Married men can be ordained to the priesthood in the Chaldean Catholic Church, so celibacy is not mandatory in order to be ordained. Most are celibate, and only about 5% or so are married. Once ordained, a priest can not marry.

1. Which language do you (Chaldean Catholic Church and Assyrian church of East) use for your Qurbana? Is it still in Syriac or in English? Is it facing the Madbaha or people?

In the Chaldean Church, classical and modern Eastern Aramaic/Syriac for the liturgy is the norm. Some liturgies are done in Arabic to accommodate Arabic speaking members. Some English liturgies have started in the English speaking world.

In the Assyrian Church, it is pretty much the same as with the Chaldeans, except they tend to resist vernacularization more strongly than the Chaldeans do. Though, they have started with some English liturgies in the English speaking world.

In the Western States eparchy, the Chaldeans there face the Madbaha (for those unfamiliar with this term, Madbaha or Madthibha is the Syriac word for Altar). In most places around the world, they still face the people. The liturgical reforms championed by Mar Sarhad of the Western States eparchy and approved in the Chaldean Synod and Rome, have not yet been implemented worldwide. So, future-wise, all Chaldeans will eventually face the Altar or East.

1. What language do the members of Chaldean Catholic Church and Assyrian church of East speak? Aramaic, Persian or Arabic?

For Chaldeans, the everyday language is modern Eastern Aramaic (though I’ve heard that a few families also speak classical Aramaic), Arabic, and those who live in Iran probably speak Farsi/Persian as well. Typically, they will also speak the local language wherever they are located around the world. So, English in English speaking countries.

For Assyrians, again it is usually the same as Chaldeans, except they tend to be much more insistant on Aramaic whereever they are located in the world. They have not vernacularized to the degree that Chaldeans have.

1. How influenced is the Chaldean Catholic church by Latin prayers like Novena and Rosary?

These are present in the Chaldean Church. They are private devotions that are allowed, but are not required. The Church first and foremost requires participation at the public prayer of the Church and that is the liturgy (Raza Qadisha), and also encourages attendance, whenever available, at the public evening prayers (Ramsha) and morning prayers (Sapra). Chaldeans also attend the other liturgies of the Holy Mysteries when their particular families are involved such as baptisms and weddings, etc.

Chaldeans don’t really have their own private devotions like the Byzantines have with the Jesus Prayer, so they tend to borrow from surrounding Catholics, especially Latins. It is easier for the Byzantines to replace a Rosary with a Jesus Prayer than it is for a Chaldean to do so, because there is really no traditional private devotions that Chaldeans can replace a Rosary or a Novena with, at least I have not yet been able to find any. This is due to their communal nature, in that, the public liturgies have always been the sustaining spiritual life of Chaldeans. Chaldeans do, however, have many liturgical and paraliturgical hymns which some families sometimes sing at homes, and this sometimes acts a private devotion among them.

1. Does Chaldean Catholic Church still use peshita bible in its pure form?

We use the Peshitta or Pshyta, but it includes all 27 books of the New Testament (including 2 Pet., 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Rev.). Now for the Old Testament Peshitta, as far as I know, it is translated from the Hebrew text with the remaining 7 books added from the Septuagint, but in order to be certain, you should ask this question to Fr. Felix.

I hope this helps.

God bless,

Rony

 

[gryphonr]

Does the Chadean/Assyrian church use icons and an iconostasis? If so are there any differences from the Byzantine church?
Thank you and a blessed Christmastide to all

 

[jj2011]

Remember that this is one of the very few instances in which the number of faithful in a Catholic Church sui iuris (Chaldean) far outnumbers the combined population of its counterparts (the Assyrian and Ancient Churches).

Would anybody happen to know what these respective numbers are, as well as the distinction between the Assyrian and ‘Ancient’ Churches?

Thanks.

 

[ronyodish]

Does the Chadean/Assyrian church use icons and an iconostasis? If so are there any differences from the Byzantine church?
Thank you and a blessed Christmastide to all

gryphonr,

Chaldeans have icons, but they are mostly borrowed from other Catholic traditions. Genuine Chaldean icons are very rare. The Cross remains a very important symbol for us. Traditionally, a veil rather than an iconostatsis is used, but not all churches have this veil. Here is an example of a veiled Chaldean Catholic church.

Assyrians prefer the Cross as their chief symbol of the Faith, rather than the use of iconography. So, genuine Assyrian icons are also very rare, and typically you will not find any icons in their churches. Here is an example of an Assyrian church.

Traditionally, hymns have been the glory of Chaldean/Assyrian Christianity. What iconography is to the Byzantines, hymns are to the Chaldeans/Assyrians.

There are other, but complementary, differences between us and the Byzantines.

Merry Christmas to you as well, and happy new year.

God bless,

Rony