Chaldean Catholics

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Awesome indeed!

Ghosty, I am glad you had a chance to go there and join that parish. Fr. Michael Birnie is a man very very learned in the Church of the East tradition, so you are in good hands when asking him about things.

One thing about the Words of the Institution… although it is not required, it was nevertheless recommended that they be said. In the Assyrian Church, it was left to the discretion of the celebrant as to whether they were to be said or not. They have always been said at the parish that I go to.

Peace…
 
antgaria said:
Awesome indeed!

Ghosty, I am glad you had a chance to go there and join that parish. Fr. Michael Birnie is a man very very learned in the Church of the East tradition, so you are in good hands when asking him about things.

One thing about the Words of the Institution… although it is not required, it was nevertheless recommended that they be said. In the Assyrian Church, it was left to the discretion of the celebrant as to whether they were to be said or not. They have always been said at the parish that I go to.

Peace…
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They might have been said, but I didn’t notice them, and they weren’t in the “missal” that I followed along in. That being said, I could easily have missed it since it was my first experience and I was just getting used to the flow of the Liturgy.

I always wondered what it would be like to not have them present since I’ve read so much about the Liturgy of Addai and Mari, but as I said before it was so blatantly obvious that this was the Eucharist that all Apostolic Christians celebrate that it didn’t seem odd at all. Honestly, unless you were specifically listening for it, as I was, I doubt most folks would notice any significant difference at all.

The bottom line is that it’s obvious that the intention of the priest is to Consecrate for the Eucharist, and that the Body and Blood are truly present according to the Liturgy. I thought it was kind of a nice jolt away from the “magic words” approach that is so easy to adopt when you’re focused on the specific Words of Institution. 👍

What struck me most was how welcoming the people were, and how clearly Catholic they must have been long before recent events. I got the general impression that this reunion was bound to happen, whether the Catholic Church was looking for it or not. 😛

It’s definitely not a case of “uniatism”, or presure-conversion by any stretch of the imagination. I read an article recently about British Assyrians joining Mar Bawai in reunion with the Chaldean Church, and a quote by one of the British Assyrians was “better make room for us, we’re Catholic now”, and that’s kind of the sense I got from this community. It wasn’t any kind of brashness or arrogance, mind you, but a simple resolute conviction, almost a “matter-of-fact” approach. Definitely a refreshing break from the polemics we often come across on-line!

At the same time I got no sense of any abandment of their own identity. It’s a small, tight community, and it will remain the same community that is was before, with the same beliefs and approach to the Faith. Now it’s just got a much larger affiliation. In fact, I got more of sense from Fr. Michael that they felt abandoned by the Church of the East in their efforts, not that they felt they were breaking with anything. It’s clear that these folks really viewed the dialogue not as an “ice-breaker” between warring parties, but as a genuine movement towards reuniting Apostolic Christians. That in itself was an interesting viewpoint to experience, and it really struck home how painful and absurd our continued schisms are, especially in the face of Christ’s prayer that “they may be one”.

One of the interesting things that I picked up from Fr. Michael that I didn’t mention before was that one of their big goals and intentions is to educate their children to be true believers, and not merely cultural adherents. He mentioned that a few years ago their young people would go to Protestant churches for religious studies, and that a big effort of their diocese, especially under Mar Bawai, was to renew a truly Apostolic Christian education and identity for their people, and especially their children. I was impressed by this dedication from a small community; it honestly reminded me of what the Early Christians must have experienced as they struggled to raise their children in the first couple of centuries.

I hope to visit again and learn even more. Fr. Michael has clearly studied his history yet was very sweet and humble. It was more like having coffee with an old friend than meeting the newest Chaldean Chor-Bishop in the area. 🙂

Let me just say that the Catholic Church is fortunate to have you guys. Keep strong in who you are, and don’t “lose yourselves” to the wild waves that can cross the Catholic ocean. Just by being true to yourselves while keeping Communion with your brothers and sisters you enrich every one of us. 👍

Peace and God bless!
 
History
The Chaldean Church descends from the Church of the East: After the massacres of Tamerlane around 1400 had devastated several bishoprics, Patriarch Shimun IV (1437-1493) made the office hereditary within his own family[2] Dissent over this practice grew until in 1552 a group of bishops refused to accept the hereditary succession of Shimun VII Ishuyau bar Mama (1539-1558).[2]

They elected Mar Yohanan Sulaqa, the superior of the Rabban Hormizd monastery 30 miles (48 km) north of Nineveh as a rival Patriarch. With the help of the Latin missionaries Sulaqa travelled to Rome and met with the Pope, eventually entering into communion with the Catholic Church. On February 20, 1553 he was proclaimed as the patriarch of “Mosul and Athur” (Assyria) by Pope Julius III.[3] The Chronicle of the Carmelites states that Sulagga was proclaimed “Patriarch of the Eastern Assyrians” but on April 19, 1553 the title was changed to “Patriarch of the Chaldeans”,[4] to distinguish his group from the Assyrian church[1] and perhaps in reference to the Old Testament, which gives Abraham’s birth place as “Ur of Chaldee”.
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ronyodish said:
bpbasilphx,

Just a small correction, it’s the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church that uses the same basic Assyro-Chaldean tradition, with an Indian adaptation. The other Indian Catholics who are known as Syro-Malankara Catholics use the Antiochene tradition, with an Indian adaptation.

As far as a non-Catholic counterpart to the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, there is the Chaldean Syrian Church, which is basically the Assyrian Church of the East in India.

As far as non-Catholic counterparts to the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, there are:
God bless,

Rony
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Thanks Rony! As a Greek Catholic sometimes my eyes just glaze over when talk of the divisions of Christianity on the Indian Sub-continent begins. I should shrink your notes down to wallet size and keep them on me at all time so I can keep track of the whats and wheres and whos of these churches!
 
Thanks Rony! As a Greek Catholic sometimes my eyes just glaze over when talk of the divisions of Christianity on the Indian Sub-continent begins. I should shrink your notes down to wallet size and keep them on me at all time so I can keep track of the whats and wheres and whos of these churches!
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I hear ya 😃

It does get confusing at times, even to me!

God bless,

Rony
 
So you want to switch to the Chaldean rite so you can get married and still be a priest ? Hmm…I don’t know if that’s your intention, but it certainly sounds like it.

Be careful with this.

Also I didn’t think one could switch between Rites?
 
The priesthood for both rites is someone with complete devotion to God so just because you are attracted to the priesthood and want to marry as well doesn’t mean you should switch Rites. In either case you should gather as much information and pray about the decision.
 
Well Im dating a girl pretty seriously thats chaldean, so i was thinking if we were to get married I might want to switch to the chaldean rite since its a big part of her community and her life.
 
I had a very quick question, I’m sorry to interfere! 😊 Not too long ago, my parish welcomed a Chaldean community to worship and celebrate mass after ours on Sunday night. Right before I leave, I always see their priest come in and arrange everything on the altar, and I’ve wanted to stay and see what it’s like for a while now.

My question is - is this alright? I’m sorry if it’s a silly question, but I’m really clueless and I’d hate to be disrespectful to anyone in my showing up. And if I *can *go, can I receive communion? What can I expect? Again, I’d hate to be disrespectful. I know a lot of women still wear veils - should I? Because I’d love to, quite honestly.

Thanks so much.

His,
Mija
 
mijajram said:
I had a very quick question, I’m sorry to interfere! 😊 Not too long ago, my parish welcomed a Chaldean community to worship and celebrate mass after ours on Sunday night. Right before I leave, I always see their priest come in and arrange everything on the altar, and I’ve wanted to stay and see what it’s like for a while now.

My question is - is this alright? I’m sorry if it’s a silly question, but I’m really clueless and I’d hate to be disrespectful to anyone in my showing up. And if I *can *go, can I receive communion? What can I expect? Again, I’d hate to be disrespectful. I know a lot of women still wear veils - should I? Because I’d love to, quite honestly.

Thanks so much.

His,
Mija
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Presuming by Chaldean, you mean Chaldean Catholic (who are in union; their not-in-full-union brethren are the Assyrians…), then…

You can go in addition to or instead of your regular Roman mass.

You are curious, so you probably should go.

As for wearing a veil: Wear one if comfortable doing so. I don’t know their rubrics.

Be aware: the Chaldean Mass is not just a variant of the Roman Mass; it’s a different liturgy with different rubrics, responses, and norms. Part of it is likely to be in another language, Aramaic, perhaps many parts of it in several.

While subject to the Pope, they are NOT subject to your Roman-Church Bishop, so the commemorations will be different for archbishop and bishop.

Their sacraments are fully valid, and fully licit. So you can receive communion. The norms for reception, however, may be different than you are used to.
 
mijajram said:
My question is - is this alright? I’m sorry if it’s a silly question, but I’m really clueless and I’d hate to be disrespectful to anyone in my showing up. And if I *can *go, can I receive communion? What can I expect? Again, I’d hate to be disrespectful. I know a lot of women still wear veils - should I? Because I’d love to, quite honestly.
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I think you can expect a very beautiful Mass 🙂 The outline of the Chaldean Mass is pretty similar to the Latin Mass so it won’t be too hard to follow. You can find a few translations of the Chaldean Mass into English on the internet so if you’d like you could read that before you attend the Mass. Chaldean people are very friendly and so I’m sure you’ll feel welcome.

About the veils, most of the Chaldean women I know don’t wear them. It’s mostly the elderly women who still do so. I don’t see as being disrespectful at all if you don’t wear a chapel veil if you’re not accustomed to wearing one.

After you attend the Mass I would really like to read about your experience! 🙂
 
Thank you so much, guys! I really appreciate your responses. I will be going this Sunday, so I’ll for sure come back and write about the experience (which I’m sure will be a beautiful one). :yup:

Thanks again!

In Christ,
Mija
 
I had to postpone my trip until yesterday, but wow - both my friend and I found the mass so amazing. Right away, they welcomed us and gave us a guide in English/Arabic/Aramaic to help.

Mass itself was beautiful. The majority of it was celebrated in chant; I hadn’t heard anything like it. The only confusing part for me was when it came time for the sign of peace. The lady behind me with her son shook my friend’s hand and then kissed her own; the altar boy came down the aisle and when he got to me, I wasn’t sure what to do. 😊

Communion was very powerful. They held a white cloth underneath your mouth and even if I didn’t speak the language, I knew exactly what the priest was saying when he held up the body and blood of our Lord in front of me.

Afterwards, the man who welcomed us came up to us again and asked us about our experience. He gave me a different guide book for me to take home and gave us a bit of history about the liturgy. He answered any questions we had and made us feel absolutely welcome.

As we left, I felt such a huge honor to know just how universal our faith really is. I think I have taken advantage of how rich our inheritance, rituals and traditions really are. It brought a whole new appreciation for it all, and I am so happy I went.

Thank you all for your help! 🙂

Your sister in Christ,
Mija
 
I’m so happy that you had such a great experience of the Chaldean Mass! 😃

The way of giving peace in the Chaldean Rite is extremely beautiful:
The alter is supposed to be the symbol of heaven and the area where the laity sit is supposed to be the symbol of the earth. The priest, who is in the person of Christ, kind of shakes the alter boys’ hands but it’s not really a handshake but more of a hand slide. And so the peace that comes from heaven through the hands of the priest is distributed by the alter boys (or whomever) and given to the laity who are the earth and the people give peace to one another from person to person.

I hope I explained that alright. It makes more sense when you’re actually there, but I hope that helps you to understand it a little more 🙂

God bless!

Maryam
 
Oh, okay. You’re right in that it wasn’t really a hand shake; it makes much more sense now. Wow! That is beautiful. :yup:
 
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