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choy
Guest
what would i expect in a Chaldean Rite mass/Divine Liturgy?
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VetA
Guest
on the forums somewhere there is a guy with the username Chaldean Rite (i kid you not i am not trying to act stupid) if you can find him PM him and he will explain it. i used to have a PM from him where i asked the same thing, and he gave me a youtube video and a website but i deleted it not too long ago.
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malphono
Guest
I’d suggest to have a look at kaldu.org which is the website of the Eparchy (Diocese) of St Peter. There are some good articles and you’ll also find an English-language text of the Liturgy.
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choy
Guest
we had a guest priest who was a Chaldean Rite priest and substituted for our parish priest and i am interested in going to his parish for a Chaldean Rite Divine Liturgy
i just want to make sure i’m prepared for it
i just want to make sure i’m prepared for it
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Choy,
The reason for this is because the Oriental Tradition, when referring to the liturgy, points immediately to the Sacrifice, which is the central event of the liturgy. For example, in the Armenian Tradition, the liturgy is called Badarak, which is a direct reference to the Eucharistic Sacrifice. Similarly, in the Syrian Tradition, the liturgy is called Qorbono, for the same reason. The word “Mass” does exactly the same thing - it is a direct reference to the Holy Sacrifice.
So if you attend liturgy at a Chaldean Church, feel free to call it a Mass. It would be more proper.
Blessings
Just a bit of information. The liturgy of the Chaldean Church and of the Assyrian Churches (whether Catholic or not) in general is called “Mass” in English. “Divine Liturgy” is a formal name for the liturgy that is mostly associated with the Eastern Tradition, not the Oriental Tradition.
The reason for this is because the Oriental Tradition, when referring to the liturgy, points immediately to the Sacrifice, which is the central event of the liturgy. For example, in the Armenian Tradition, the liturgy is called Badarak, which is a direct reference to the Eucharistic Sacrifice. Similarly, in the Syrian Tradition, the liturgy is called Qorbono, for the same reason. The word “Mass” does exactly the same thing - it is a direct reference to the Holy Sacrifice.
So if you attend liturgy at a Chaldean Church, feel free to call it a Mass. It would be more proper.
Blessings
C
choy
Guest
now i’m learning! thanks! 
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mardukm
Guest
And you’ve probably figured it out by my previous post, but if you visit ANY church of the Oriental Tradition, whether Catholic or Orthodox, feel free to use the word “Mass.” Trust me - no one will so much as bat an eyelid.now i’m learning! thanks!
Just remember that the Melkites are of the Eastern Tradition, not Oriental. So with them, “Divine Liturgy” would be the proper term.
Blessings
5
5Loaves
Guest
I’ve only been to a couple Chaldean liturgies, only one was a Mass. None were in English. The Mass I went to which was referred to as the more English Mass had the Gospel proclaimed a second time, in English. That was the only English. At the Mass I attended about a quarter of the women had their heads covered, up until time to receive Eucharist at which point I think every woman had her head covered. If I remember correctly Eucharist was a kind of intinction, not what we have in Divine Liturgy from a tiny spoon. There was also a passing of the peace which is shown on YouTube somewhere- begins at the altar and is passed from person to person through the church, front to back. Some of the parishioners knelt and many did not. I should say it was an Assyrian/Chaldean parish which I think had combined not too many years earlier.
I would love to go again. The community was very welcoming.
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Aramis
Guest
Both are intinction, 5loaves.
Individual intinction by dipping of individual hosts is the Syriac norm, both East Syriac (Assyro-Chaldean) Rite and West Syriac (Antiochene) Rite. All the Catholic Syriac Churches (Syrian Catholic Church, Chaldean Catholic Church, Maronite Catholic Church, Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, and Syro-Malakara Catholic Church) allow for this mode, from what I’ve read; some allow unintincted communion as well, and at least one (but I forget which) allows leavened hosts as well.
Intinction by immersion of cut pieces of a leavened bread is the Byzantine and Coptic norm. It can be done by dipping individual pieces of the body, as the Melkites are known to sometimes do, or by immersing all the pieces in the blood.
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5Loaves
Guest
Yes, and thanks for a much clearer description.
I don’t have a great memory so I hesitate to say for sure, but my recollection is that the consecrated hosts were about the same as in a Latin parish, unleavened, flat, very thin circle about an inch to inch and a half diameter.I will add there were pews in this church, as there were also in St Peter Chaldean Cathedral I attended. The website malphono gave for their Eparchy has lots of good stuff on it.
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diggerdomer
Guest
The same essentials one should expect in any Catholic liturgy.
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choy
Guest
if that was all to it i wouldn’t be asking the question
we all know different rites have different traditions
:doh2:
J
josethomas2005
Guest
**Caldean rite comes from East syriac traditions.
There are West Syriac and East syriac traditions.
West syriac and East syriac traditions come from Syriac traditions.
What is syriac tradition?
Consider the notes from a scholar in this forum ‘syro malankara’.
The Eastern and Western halves of the Syrian Church were divided firstly by political problems in the region, then the Nestorian controversy. Some connection to the Syrian Patriarchate seems to have been maintained, since the relics of St. Thomas were brought to a church belonging to the western Syriac Patriarchate in Edessa.
Both “western and eastern” practices were originally (before 325) under the umbrella of the Patriarchate of Antioch. Political problems forced the Patriarchate of Antioch to give the Church in the East more autonomy and gave the Eastern head bishop the title “Catholicos of the East” and “Maphrian”. When the Nestorian controversy erupted, most of the East, being separated from Antioch, came under the (now not in Communion with Antioch) Eastern Catholicos. This is not to say that all the bishops and clergy at the time considered themselves out of Communion with Antioch (actually, the Syriac Patriarchate still claimed the Eastern half rightfully hers, even though they were now separated).**
One thing to note is that nobody in the caldean rite will say their history before 5th century. That they do not say in their websites or other documents. If they say, they have to agree the fact they were actually under Antioch.
There are West Syriac and East syriac traditions.
West syriac and East syriac traditions come from Syriac traditions.
What is syriac tradition?
Consider the notes from a scholar in this forum ‘syro malankara’.
The Eastern and Western halves of the Syrian Church were divided firstly by political problems in the region, then the Nestorian controversy. Some connection to the Syrian Patriarchate seems to have been maintained, since the relics of St. Thomas were brought to a church belonging to the western Syriac Patriarchate in Edessa.
Both “western and eastern” practices were originally (before 325) under the umbrella of the Patriarchate of Antioch. Political problems forced the Patriarchate of Antioch to give the Church in the East more autonomy and gave the Eastern head bishop the title “Catholicos of the East” and “Maphrian”. When the Nestorian controversy erupted, most of the East, being separated from Antioch, came under the (now not in Communion with Antioch) Eastern Catholicos. This is not to say that all the bishops and clergy at the time considered themselves out of Communion with Antioch (actually, the Syriac Patriarchate still claimed the Eastern half rightfully hers, even though they were now separated).**
One thing to note is that nobody in the caldean rite will say their history before 5th century. That they do not say in their websites or other documents. If they say, they have to agree the fact they were actually under Antioch.
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ciero
Guest
The Copts do NOT give communion by intinction. The Body is given first placed in your mouth by the hand of the priest, then the precious blood from a spoon. If there are 2 priests you would receive the Body first from 1 priest then the Precious blood from priest 2. If there is only 1 priest everybody lines up twice, receiving the Body first time around and the Precious Blood on the second.
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diggerdomer
Guest
Sorry if I misunderstood. So are you really asking, what is the difference between the Roman and Chaldean Catholic Rites?
if that was all to it i wouldn’t be asking the question
we all know different rites have different traditions
:doh2:
C
choy
Guest
so today i was able to attend a Chaldean Mass
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Filioque
Guest
With all it’s difficulties, (hopefully many will come to an end in the next year) the Archdiocese of Los Angeles does have several of the Eastern Rite Liturgies availible every Sunday, For those of us who live near the Orange County Boarder there are even more Eastern Rite Options both North and South of the County Line. Every Catholic (IMO)should experience the Liturgical richness of the Eastern and Western Church.so today i was able to attend a Chaldean Mass
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choy
Guest
i agree!
yes, it was a bit difficult as i was the only person there who doesn’t understand a word that the priest was saying. although i know the priest because twice he has come to our parish as a substitute when our pastor was away (he also celebrates the Latin Rite Mass) so i had a bit of confidence going to that Mass. also, there is no Chaldean Parish here in the Archdiocese of Vancouver so they just hold their mass in a Latin Rite parish
in September i’m going to a Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy
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choy
Guest
i have questions that hopefully someone can answer:
a. why is it that sometimes some people remain standing while most sit? also it seems that kneeling is not part of the tradition but at certain parts of the mass some people elect to kneel (latinization?)
b. was it the Lord’s Prayer prayed before the Gospel?
c. when the priest comes down and joins the congregation and faces the altar (same direction as the congregation), is that the Creed?
d. there was this part when 5 altar servers knelt in front of the altar, then there was a lengthy prayer. after which the priest and the concelebrant exchanged kisses (cheeck-to-cheeck). then the elder altar server went up to the side of the altar and from the concelebrant’s hand together in the “amen” position, he put his hands over and slid it towards himself into the “amen” position, then went down to the 4 other servers and did the same, this time its the 4 others who put their hands on the elder one, then they ran off down the pews and the people from the side did the same and pass along down the pew. is this the sign of peace?
e. there was someone there who looked like a deacon, his stole was wrapped around his neck like a scarf. but he didn’t read the gospel, though he sang some prayers and helped distribute communion. but he was sitting off to the side
f. whats the norm for receiving the Eucharist? i know someone mentioned before about the incense at the communion line, and i did put my hand over it. but the two in front of me received COTT so i received COTT. i thought the incense was there to purify the hands to receive CITH?
a. why is it that sometimes some people remain standing while most sit? also it seems that kneeling is not part of the tradition but at certain parts of the mass some people elect to kneel (latinization?)
b. was it the Lord’s Prayer prayed before the Gospel?
c. when the priest comes down and joins the congregation and faces the altar (same direction as the congregation), is that the Creed?
d. there was this part when 5 altar servers knelt in front of the altar, then there was a lengthy prayer. after which the priest and the concelebrant exchanged kisses (cheeck-to-cheeck). then the elder altar server went up to the side of the altar and from the concelebrant’s hand together in the “amen” position, he put his hands over and slid it towards himself into the “amen” position, then went down to the 4 other servers and did the same, this time its the 4 others who put their hands on the elder one, then they ran off down the pews and the people from the side did the same and pass along down the pew. is this the sign of peace?
e. there was someone there who looked like a deacon, his stole was wrapped around his neck like a scarf. but he didn’t read the gospel, though he sang some prayers and helped distribute communion. but he was sitting off to the side
f. whats the norm for receiving the Eucharist? i know someone mentioned before about the incense at the communion line, and i did put my hand over it. but the two in front of me received COTT so i received COTT. i thought the incense was there to purify the hands to receive CITH?
F
Filioque
Guest
Just my own observations…
What I do remember about the Chaldean, Maronite, and Coptic Rites is that the Pater, (Lord’s Prayer) is recited twice during the Liturgy.
Kneeling is rarer in the East than the West, usually during Lent and Advent and not universally. (The Byzantine Rite has, “Kneeling Vespers” Where the priest, clergy and congregation kneel for several minutes at a time during certain prayers) but I’m not well versed enough on the Chaleans etc. There are a few points in the Coptic Liturgy where the congregation kneels,
As to the rest of the questions, the Eastern Catholic Pastoral Assoc of Southern Calif, has many online… faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/ChaldeanMass.html
What I do remember about the Chaldean, Maronite, and Coptic Rites is that the Pater, (Lord’s Prayer) is recited twice during the Liturgy.
Kneeling is rarer in the East than the West, usually during Lent and Advent and not universally. (The Byzantine Rite has, “Kneeling Vespers” Where the priest, clergy and congregation kneel for several minutes at a time during certain prayers) but I’m not well versed enough on the Chaleans etc. There are a few points in the Coptic Liturgy where the congregation kneels,
As to the rest of the questions, the Eastern Catholic Pastoral Assoc of Southern Calif, has many online… faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/ChaldeanMass.html
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