Challenge for the Protestants

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Show me a document not from the Bible that support Faith Alone, and Bible Alone was practice by Early Christians in the 1st to 5th Century A.D, and also show me the description of Worship service by Early Christians.

Do not use the Scripture. You must use historical references to include non-believers.

I state my claim that the Early Church is indeed Catholic Church. It’s Eucharistic Liturgy, which is the center of Catholic worship.

To my fellow Catholics, feel free to join in the discussion.
 
this is a cut and paste

AMBROSE
Ambrose (AD 340-397). Ambrose taught that faith not works that would lead one to boast is necessary for salvation:

[c.3. ad Roman.]:

“They are justified by faith alone by the gift of God.”

“He calls them blessed of whom God has decreed, without any labour or observation, they should be justified only by faith.”

[c. 9 ad Roman.]:

“Only faith is appointed to salvation.”

“It is convenient that the creature only should obtain salvation in the name of the Creator, that is, by faith.”

“He saith no work of the law, but only faith is to be given in the cause of Christ.”

[in 2 Cor. 3.]

“The law of the Spirit gives liberty, requiring faith alone.”

[3 ad. Galat.]:

“They know that Abraham without the works of the law was justified only by faith.”

** ORIGEN (2nd / 3rd Cent.):**

[c.3. epist. ad. Roman. Quoted in Andrew Willet. Synopsis Papismi]

“The apostles saith, that the justification onely of faith sufficeth.”
 
Show me a document not from the Bible that support Faith Alone, and Bible Alone was practice by Early Christians in the 1st to 5th Century A.D, and also show me the description of Worship service by Early Christians.

Do not use the Scripture. You must use historical references to include non-believers.

I state my claim that the Early Church is indeed Catholic Church. It’s Eucharistic Liturgy, which is the center of Catholic worship.

To my fellow Catholics, feel free to join in the discussion.
Why wouldn’t we use Scripture to make the point? It’s the ultimate written authority.
 
Show me a document not from the Bible that support Faith Alone, and Bible Alone was practice by Early Christians in the 1st to 5th Century A.D, and also show me the description of Worship service by Early Christians.

I will use scripture. I am offended you would ask us not too.
Interesting…and not in a good way!:mad:
Here are three things I know for sure that Paul said:
  1. There was a meal and everyone was supposed to start at the same time. Where do you get your liturgy out of that?
  2. Men were not to pray with their head covered. Who covers their head when they pray now?
  3. No more than 2 or 3 people should prophecy in an orderly manner.
Do not use the Scripture. You must use historical references to include non-believers
 
Such, then, is their system, which neither the prophets announced, nor the Lord taught, nor the apostles delivered, but of which they boast that beyond all others they have a perfect knowledge. They gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures; and, to use a common proverb, they strive to weave ropes of sand, while they endeavour to adapt with an air of probability to their own peculiar assertions the parables of the Lord, the sayings of the prophets, and the words of the apostles, in order that their scheme may not seem altogether without support. ( ANF: Vol. I, Against Heresies, Book 1:8:1.)

When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but viva voce: (Irenaeus, Against Heresies)

On such terms we might amuse ourselves without fear of offending each other in the field of Scripture, but I might well wonder if the amusement was not at my expense. For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error.( NPNF1: Vol. I, Letters of St. Augustine, Letter 82, Chapter 1)

“But who can fail to be aware that the sacred canon of Scripture, both of the Old and New Testament, is confined within its own limits, and that it stands so absolutely in a superior position to all later letters of the bishops, that about it we can hold no manner of doubt or disputation whether what is confessedly contained in it is right and true; but that all the letters of bishops which have been written, or are being written, since the closing of the canon, are liable to be refuted if there be anything contained in them which strays from the truth, either by the discourse of some one who happens to be wiser in the matter than themselves, or by the weightier authority and more learned experience of other bishops, by the authority of Councils; and further, that the Councils themselves, which are held in the several districts and provinces, must yield, beyond all possibility of doubt, to the authority of plenary Councils which are formed for the whole Christian world; and that even of the plenary Councils, the earlier are often corrected by those which follow them, when, by some actual experiment, things are brought to light which were before concealed, and that is known which previously lay hid, and this without any whirlwind of sacrilegious pride, without any puffing of the neck through arrogance, without any strife of envious hatred, simply with holy humility, catholic peace, and Christian charity” (Augustine “On Baptism, Against the Donatists”, II.III.IV).
 
I was wondering if you can explain further how sketchy? 🙂
Oh… I was thinking **“sketchy” **in a “I bet I know what you’re getting at but perhaps you’re going at it in a way that can easily be disputed based on semantics and spiritual cultural understanding” way.
If the OP’s original idea was to test the Protestant knowledge of Church history, asking the Protestant to defend their way of doing spiritual things by taking away their only source of spiritual truth is “sketchy”. “Sketchy” from a Protestant standpoint because you’re asking for something outside of the Bible and even outside of Christian history to validate what is only validated in Scripture. “Sketchy” from an uninformed bystanders standpoint because the OP clearly believes he has asked the ultimate “one-up” question that Protestants can’t answer. “Sketchy” from my standpoint because specifically inviting fellow Catholics to join the discussion seems to make the real point of the question a means for opening up the forum to Catholics with beefs about the implied stance of Protestants.

Hey, you asked 😃
-Rhonda
 
Geez, it’s Manny’s thread and it seems to me he can set the parameters. If you cannot respond within these, then you can ignore it, or start another thread with your own criteria.
 
“Sketchy”
from a Protestant standpoint because you’re asking for something outside of the Bible and even outside of Christian history to validate what is only validated in Scripture.
-Rhonda

Thanks for your answer. 😉
My next question, how do you think his question is “outside of Christian history”?
 
Well, you will not find that in the Bible. It is the agape meal that Paul says we are to practice to celebrate the last supper. While I am not some kind of zealot, yet, it is plain that someone dropped the meal. Why? Are you saying the early church ate a meal and THEN had some kind of liturgy??
Prove it.
Hi Brian -

In chapter 10 of the Gospel of Luke we read the story of the 72 sent out by Jesus. While the Gospel states that He sent them to “prepare the way,” it doesn’t actually spell out what they did.

Please read Luke 10:1-12, 17-20, then continue.

Please read your question/challange then read these links. Please take the time to study them.

Admission to the Eucharist in situations of pastoral necessity: Provision between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East

When you are done with the first lnk, then please study the second link.

The Hallowing of Addai and Mari Disciplers of the East

I look forward to your response. PM me if you would like.

With the love of Christ -
Subrosa
 
Such, then, is their system, which neither the prophets announced, nor the Lord taught, nor the apostles delivered, but of which they boast that beyond all others they have a perfect knowledge. They gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures; and, to use a common proverb, they strive to weave ropes of sand, while they endeavour to adapt with an air of probability to their own peculiar assertions the parables of the Lord, the sayings of the prophets, and the words of the apostles, in order that their scheme may not seem altogether without support. ( ANF: Vol. I, Against Heresies, Book 1:8:1.)

When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but viva voce: (Irenaeus, Against Heresies)

On such terms we might amuse ourselves without fear of offending each other in the field of Scripture, but I might well wonder if the amusement was not at my expense. For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error.( NPNF1: Vol. I, Letters of St. Augustine, Letter 82, Chapter 1)

“But who can fail to be aware that the sacred canon of Scripture, both of the Old and New Testament, is confined within its own limits, and that it stands so absolutely in a superior position to all later letters of the bishops, that about it we can hold no manner of doubt or disputation whether what is confessedly contained in it is right and true; but that all the letters of bishops which have been written, or are being written, since the closing of the canon, are liable to be refuted if there be anything contained in them which strays from the truth, either by the discourse of some one who happens to be wiser in the matter than themselves, or by the weightier authority and more learned experience of other bishops, by the authority of Councils; and further, that the Councils themselves, which are held in the several districts and provinces, must yield, beyond all possibility of doubt, to the authority of plenary Councils which are formed for the whole Christian world; and that even of the plenary Councils, the earlier are often corrected by those which follow them, when, by some actual experiment, things are brought to light which were before concealed, and that is known which previously lay hid, and this without any whirlwind of sacrilegious pride, without any puffing of the neck through arrogance, without any strife of envious hatred, simply with holy humility, catholic peace, and Christian charity” (Augustine “On Baptism, Against the Donatists”, II.III.IV).
Hillarious!

Quoting early Catholics speaking against Heretics to try to make a point against Catholics today. And yet, these writings make up part of the fabric of the Tradition that you reject!

You are a piece of work, Sola.
 
Why wouldn’t we use Scripture to make the point? It’s the ultimate written authority.
Then we would expect the early Christians to believe in the same way. Do they? If early Christians looked (as the Augsburg Confession claims) like the Church the Reformers invisioned, we should see history support this. Where is the history?
 
this is a cut and paste

AMBROSE
Ambrose (AD 340-397). Ambrose taught that faith not works that would lead one to boast is necessary for salvation:

[c.3. ad Roman.]:

“They are justified by faith alone by the gift of God.”

“He calls them blessed of whom God has decreed, without any labour or observation, they should be justified only by faith.”

[c. 9 ad Roman.]:

“Only faith is appointed to salvation.”

“It is convenient that the creature only should obtain salvation in the name of the Creator, that is, by faith.”

“He saith no work of the law, but only faith is to be given in the cause of Christ.”

[in 2 Cor. 3.]

“The law of the Spirit gives liberty, requiring faith alone.”

[3 ad. Galat.]:

“They know that Abraham without the works of the law was justified only by faith.”

** ORIGEN (2nd / 3rd Cent.):**

[c.3. epist. ad. Roman. Quoted in Andrew Willet. Synopsis Papismi]

“The apostles saith, that the justification onely of faith sufficeth.”
“Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works”. James 2:21-22

And James’ conclusion in verse 17 is that, “faith, if it has no works, is dead”.

That is to say that works is to faith, what branches is to a tree.

Didn’t christ say, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Why would anyone who wants to be close to Christ ever not want to help others through good works?

Why would a persons faith ever not lead them to do Good works? It would seem to me that Good works are the fruit of faith and if you truely belive and have faith then good works will flow naturally from your heart. You will see christ in others around you and you will want to be closer to him and help him.

Good works are the test of your faith and the measure of it.

These are just basic concepts that I don’t think protestants understand sometimes. They try to justify their lives by saying,“oh I have faith and therefore I can be saved.” I truely hope that Christ will not say to them, “I never knew you”
 
Hillarious!

Quoting early Catholics speaking against Heretics to try to make a point against Catholics today. And yet, these writings make up part of the fabric of the Tradition that your reject!

You are a piece of work, Sola.
Actually I thought that this was pretty good. That’s the problem when Catholics want to talk about the writings of the ECFs. In those cases where the ECFs support current Catholic dogma, this is proof positive that this is what the early church believed and that the Protestant has it wrong. In those cases where the ECFs support Protestant viewpoints, or could be quoted against current Catholic viewpoints, then these ECFs don’t represent the authentic church–it is simply a matter of their personal opinion–and those opinions are ignored. I’m sure that Protestants do the same thing, everyone is looking for proof texts.
 
Geez, it’s Manny’s thread and it seems to me he can set the parameters. If you cannot respond within these, then you can ignore it, or start another thread with your own criteria.
You’re right. My apoligies, Manny. I didn’t mean offense and hope none was taken.
-Rhonda
 
Thanks for your answer. 😉
My next question, how do you think his question is “outside of Christian history”?
I don’t think his question is “outside of Christian history”. I’m not sola scriptura (not the poster, the idea) It’s just a view that I would have held as a Protestant.
 
I’m sure that Protestants do the same thing, everyone is looking for proof texts.
Except that I’ve hardly seen any do it. Calvin did, to a certain extent, from Augustine. But he happened to ignore the vast majority of Augustine’s views.

The problem is this: Can we find any of the Church Fathers, and as such the likelihood of there being a group of Early Christians, that believed and worshiped as Protestants believe and worship today?
 
Hillarious!

Quoting early Catholics speaking against Heretics to try to make a point against Catholics today. And yet, these writings make up part of the fabric of the Tradition that you reject!

You are a piece of work, Sola.
If Catholic traditions from today differ from catholic traditions of yesterday…
This is also the second time you have not interacted with Irenaues when given a chance to…🙂
 
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