Challenge from Hitchens

[PoorKnight]

I recently watched the debate between Dr. William Craig and Christopher Hitchens.

In it Mr. Hitchens challenged believers to name one moral thing he couldn’t do that a believer could.

This came up again on the latest Catholic Answers Open Forum for Non-Catholics (Feb 21st, 1st hour, last question.)

Steve Ray’s and Tim Staples’ answers, I thought, were good: that since we’re all made in the image and likeness of God that an atheist can be as moral as a Catholic. Please review the show for the full in depth answer.

I’m not a Philosopher - I don’t even play one on T.V. - but two things came to mind that might answer this challenge and I wanted some much smarter people’s opinions on this.

To any atheist reading this, these inquiries of mine are meant in good faith (pun not intended) so I beg the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the tone of my inquires.

1. Could an atheist live the life of a saint? Are there any atheists who have lived a heroically virtuous life like a Bl. Mother Theresa, St. Thomas Moore, or Giorgio Frassati?

In my understanding of arguments, in the classical sense, the fact that I - or any other Christian - fail to live this kind of life is not proof that this answer is false. It would merely be a reminder that I too am a sinner not living the life God wants me to live.

1. Technically, could “believe” be an action an atheist couldn’t do, because the moment they did, they would cease to be an atheist?

Thank you all a head of time.
God Bless you all,
Poor Knight for Christ and His Church

 

[PoorKnight]

My Dumb… I just saw the temporary ban on atheism threads. Please disregard.

 

[valekhai]

To any atheist reading this, these inquiries of mine are meant in good faith (pun not intended) so I beg the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the tone of my inquires.

1. Could an atheist live the life of a saint? Are there any atheists who have lived a heroically virtuous life like a Bl. Mother Theresa, St. Thomas Moore, or Giorgio Frassati?

-Richard Carlile campaigned for freedom of the press and universal suffrage, and against child labor. He was imprisoned for writing in support of agricultural workers who were striking against wage cuts.

-William Lewis Moore was an activist for the mentally ill. He also staged several single-man protests against racial segregation; he was murdered during his final protest.

-Baba Amte was an Indian atheist who worked on behalf of the poor and ill in his country, particularly lepers.

Deng Pufang is a Chinese activist on behalf of the disabled, having been paralyzed by Mao’s Red Guard during the Cultural Revolution.

1. Technically, could “believe” be an action an atheist couldn’t do, because the moment they did, they would cease to be an atheist?
   That is an action that an atheist could not do, but the challenge was to name a moral action; I’d argue that believing is amoral at best.

 

[Zachary]

Hitchens question seems more of a strawman than anything.

The Church doesn’t say you can’t be an upstanding and good person; She says you can’t attain Heaven without accepting Jesus.

An atheist and a Christian can build a car but only the one who fills his/her tank with gas AND has the keys can drive off onto the sunset.

 

[valekhai]

Hitchens question seems more of a strawman than anything.

The Church doesn’t say you can’t be an upstanding and good person; She says you can’t attain Heaven without accepting Jesus.

An atheist and a Christian can build a car but only the one who fills his/her tank with gas AND has the keys can drive off onto the sunset.

The challenge is directly aimed at theists who think that they have some sort of moral superiority over atheists. It makes no claims about the teachings of any particular church.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I recently watched the debate between Dr. William Craig and Christopher Hitchens.

In it Mr. Hitchens challenged believers to name one moral thing he couldn’t do that a believer could.

This came up again on the latest Catholic Answers Open Forum for Non-Catholics (Feb 21st, 1st hour, last question.)

Steve Ray’s and Tim Staples’ answers, I thought, were good: that since we’re all made in the image and likeness of God that an atheist can be as moral as a Catholic. Please review the show for the full in depth answer.

I’m not a Philosopher - I don’t even play one on T.V. - but two things came to mind that might answer this challenge and I wanted some much smarter people’s opinions on this.

To any atheist reading this, these inquiries of mine are meant in good faith (pun not intended) so I beg the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the tone of my inquires.

1. Could an atheist live the life of a saint? Are there any atheists who have lived a heroically virtuous life like a Bl. Mother Theresa, St. Thomas Moore, or Giorgio Frassati?

In my understanding of arguments, in the classical sense, the fact that I - or any other Christian - fail to live this kind of life is not proof that this answer is false. It would merely be a reminder that I too am a sinner not living the life God wants me to live.

1. Technically, could “believe” be an action an atheist couldn’t do, because the moment they did, they would cease to be an atheist?

Thank you all a head of time.
God Bless you all,
Poor Knight for Christ and His Church

They cannot perform spiritually meritorious acts - unless perhaps if their non-belief is invincible and they lived good lives by the best light of their reason. But this probably would not apply in most cases. One naturally assumes that atheism, in most cases, is a deliberate rejection of God. But this may be wrong. In fact I don’t see how a really sane person could be an atheist. That would mean that many atheists may indeed be capable of performing meritorious acts - though doubts if all could. And of course many Christians, perhaps most, suffer from the same disability. Thak God, we have a merciful God, Who will weigh all the contingencies of our lives or no one would be capable of performing meritorious acts. In my opinion, it is a first class miracle that anyone is saved.

Linus2nd

 

[Eric_Hyom]

The challenge is directly aimed at theists who think that they have some sort of moral superiority over atheists. It makes no claims about the teachings of any particular church.

I am sure atheists act in a moral way, the only thing I might add, is theists are constantly being asked for money to support good causes. We are also constantly being asked to donate our time; to help others, and we tend to do these activities in groups of people with rotas. This also gives the group; the chance to encourage and support each other.

I guess secular humanists might do something similar.

 

[Tarquin]

I wonder why Hitchens brought up “morality.” That’s a tough issue by anyone’s standards. There are all sorts of different opinions about morality. One atheist said people who believe in God are fundamentally evil. Others think passing any sort of judgment (such as that one) is immoral, while still others think it is immoral not to express judgment on sins/crimes as well as on sinners/criminals.

Perhaps the problem with atheism is not one of simple morality.

Some atheists have told me they think people who believe in God are unwilling to face reality. Perhaps the ability to recognize reality is the real issue, rather than how to be good in social contexts.

If we owe something to God, then recognition of God becomes paramount to our ability to fulfil that moral responsibility. In that case, an atheist could not be fully “moral,” while a theist merely may not be. An atheist in that case seems to have no choice; a theist has a choice.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I

1. Could an atheist live the life of a saint?

No. Atheism is a mortal sin that is ongoing, not occasional.

Luke 13:
"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.""

If the atheist does not repent (by definition the atheist has no one to Whom to repent)) he will perish. Hardly the point of being a saint.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The challenge is directly aimed at theists who think that they have some sort of moral superiority over atheists. It makes no claims about the teachings of any particular church.

They do have such a moral superiority if there is a God and they live as God teaches them to live. If there is a God, one must be thankful to this God for life and all our gifts. That is a moral act. The atheist does not give thanks. He is an ingrate so far as God is concerned.

 

[polytropos]

The challenge seems a bit pointless. If theism is true, then worship is a morally good action, and Hitchens could not worship without becoming a theist. His dodge would be to say that worship is only a morally good action if theism is true. But why should we be interested in telling him what morally good action he can’t partake in if theism is false? It seems rather obvious that whatever morally good actions can only be performed by a theist are going to be internal to theism.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

…

In it Mr. Hitchens challenged believers to name one moral thing he couldn’t do that a believer could…

Hitchen’s challenge is irrelevant, since ALL people can act morally or immorally - Christian, atheist, Moslem, Hindu, white, black, brown, green or brindle.

The basis of Christianity is not whether we do more or less moral acts than another human being, but that NONE of us comes anywhere near the utter holiness of God.

To get past the very first post, we need the sacrificial death of Christ. And after that we’re expected to TRY to emulate the holiness of God. Most of us don’t make a good fist of it, so we’re going to spend a bit (or a fair bit) of time in Purgatory getting the dross burned out of us so to speak, even though we’ll have been forgiven.

Nor are we judged on the fact we may have performed one or two good Brownie points at some point during our lives. We’ll be judged on our WHOLE lives.

I don’t see Christopher Hitchens’ self proclaimed role as not only an atheist, but also a misotheist (“hater of God”), getting him very far when he fronted up to the judgement seat.

Perhaps he did perform outstandingly moral acts from time to time, but I wonder what excuses he tried to present to the Almighty about any immoral acts he may have performed during his life?

And if so, on what basis did he expect God to overlook them?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Perhaps he did perform outstandingly moral acts from time to time, but I wonder what excuses he tried to present to the Almighty about any immoral acts he may have performed during his life?

And if so, on what basis did he expect God to overlook them?

Well, when he awoke and found himself before the Judgment Seat, the first thing he might have shouted is:

"GOD IS GREAT! MY O MY, HOW RELIGION SPOILS NOTHING!"