Challenge met?

[Khalfan]

i never saw this question before. What does it have to do with the topic? John wrote it .

I asked,

How do you prove he was truly a disciples’ disciple? What if he was misunderstood of the events or sayings? Can you give name of any person?

And you answered with a counter question,

How do you prove that x or y is from the sahaba? tradition. Check the Church Fathers.

So on that basis, my question again is, Who wrote John’s gospels. You said, John.

Tell me, how do you say, it was John? Did he say, I am John writing it?

The topic indeed is not related to this. But it is related some books that appeared to be in the bible, which you don’t know by WHO, for WHAT and WHEN was written. I am just trying to know, if you know it at least for the 3 gospels except Luke’s.

my objection is :

first : about the claim that Muhammad got his info from God because he was not there, and not from men. The apocrypha prove Muhammad heard it from men, not God.

What if it was written after Quran in purpose of disproving it in claim copying? Especially when it is one of the doubtful account in your own Biblical concern?

second : what he quoted is historically wrong because Jesus never talked in the cradle to defend Mary’s virginity since she was married to Joseph and no one questioned her chastity.

You don’t anything about his childhood.

third : the info Muhammad told you are from God are infact taken from fictional gospels about Jesus’ childhood. How do we know? read them for heaven’s sake.

This is the only valid question. How do we trust Quran for what it says? Until it proves that it is from God, we don’t have to believe in those histories. And the way to know if it is from God, is many, but one is those scintifical statements that no man could ever have said without microscope or other advanced technology we have today.

 

[Khalfan]

scholars determine their age based on the church fathers who talked about them, or their content, or their stylistic features ecc.

30 Eminent scholars from 50 Denomination of NIV have thrown out many words (not Word), Verses, Chapter and Books itself as later addition and fabrication, which we see in Catholic Bibles based on earlier manuscripts which was unknown to your church fathers. Your scholars too have problem in making a true BIBLE. No one knows what will be there in your Bible tomorrow.

lol. Who said that one has to copy 50/50 in order for it to be called forgery? if you remove the apocrypha and the legends from the Quran, and if you remove the OT and it’s Talmudic interpretation by Jewish rabbis from the Quran, you will be left with Muhammad’s wars and sexual priviledges. Nothing in the Quran is genuine except his sexual priviledges and war. Everything else is traced to either OT or apocrypha or legends. My approach is the opposite, if 5 whole passages (that i remember) are men-made, all of it is man-made.

You are yet to prove, it was written before Mohamed (pbuh). Addition and fabrication is possible even today we find that very often in the Bible.

lol. These apocrypha were written before Muhammad was even born.

How did you say that?

if it is believable, it wouldn’t be apocrypha.

And how do you determine, if it is unbelievable or believable? I would say, since it is apocrypha, since the writers are not sure, since any later addition is not sure, since the purpose of writing is not sure, since the time of writing is not sure, since what was originally written is not sure, even a bit of its content cannot be taken in to face value by both Christians or Muslims.

Another possibility is that, what if it is true and your scholars failed to understand that becasue of any other reason? Like happened with Mark 16:9-20 or 1 John 5:7 or Apocryphas that confirmed later (Apocrypha was only 3 in the first Bible).

well even quoting the Bible proves that dozens of prophets never denied but confirmed previous scriptures; why?because they were true prophets, not cult leaders who reject what God says to promote their teachings. Your reply gives the impression that the Bible is wrong becaus it says prophets do not reject scriptures! as if a true prophet, according to you, is someone who rejects God’s word.

Simple Christians rejected many verses and chapters in your Bible. Why do you need a prophet to reject it? You think if there is any prophet today, will reject those 4 apocrypha which you confirmed later? (In the first Bible, there was only 3 books in apocrypha. Now it is 7)

when many of the sources are apocrypha and legends, i don’t care about the rest.

You don’t know what was originally written in those apocrypha or legends.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

You better learn about Non- Saheeh Hadees.

You’d better learn what is hearsay. The Quran and all the hadiths, sahih and non-sahih, are hearsay.

Khalfan:

Yaa… Thats why you don’t know the names of the writers even.

So?

Khalfan:

Wait… You said, I have to accept what ever you say, for the reason ‘I said it’.

Please make sense. We were talking about the apocrypha and you talked about the NT. Is that making sense?

Khalfan:

You are supposed to be an authority for apocrypha (atleast) then.

No. I just researched the apocrypha pertaining to Muhammad’s plagiarism.

Khalfan:

Tell me how was these veified, those appocrypha were written before Mohamed; name of the person who wrote those apocrypha books; exact time of the writing.

The Christian theologians can date the apocrypha to times before Muhammad by the dates when Christians talked and discussed them.

Christian scholars are great writers - and they discuss many subjects - surprising for you perhaps that they discuss the apocrypha. We can hence date the apocrypha by who wrote about them. If these scholars lived before Muhammad we know that these apocrypha must have been written before him.

Khalfan:

I removed the questions regarding NT and OT.

Good for you.

Khalfan:

1. When was the first compiled books ‘bible’ came into existence? Do you have copy of that? How many apocrypha was in it how many is it today?

The apocrypha is not the Bible. Please don’t bring it up.

Khalfan:

1. How do you mesure the divine/spiritual inspiration in any book dated today or 2000 year old?

That is for the theologians. I’m only interested in the history of when the apocrypha were written.

Khalfan:

1. How can the date prove the truth of any writing?

For the apocrypha we can do that by many means including what I wrote above. Please check out how theologians date the apocrypha before making any more nonsensical statements or questions.

 

[inJESUS]

I asked,

How do you prove he was truly a disciples’ disciple? What if he was misunderstood of the events or sayings? Can you give name of any person?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

As soon as i opened your link about miracles, i saw about the pink star. It is already established Khalfan that the pinky colour was added by Nasa to the original picture. In other words, it has nothing to do with the Quranic aya about a pinky colour in the star . This is an example. You can open a thread to discuss further

Sounds like the miracle I’ve heard in the muslim world about Neil Armstrong. Claimed that he heard the call to prayer on the moon and when he heard it in Lebanon he converted to Islam.

Unfortuntely, Mr. Armstrong heard it and denied any such thing. If I recall correctly, Mr. Armstrong communed just before stepping out on the moon.

The problem with these “proofs” is they are very much fad driven, and when the “fact” is disproved with subsequent research, the new “fact” is incorporated as a new proof. One critic called it the tree with a thousand fruits, as muslims take discoveries elsewhere and paste it on the tree of the Quran and say “see.” He was specifically speaking of the claim that Ali discovered the theory of gravity from the Quran, not Newton.

I’ve seen some muslims claim that the US constitution was based on the principles of islam, and therefore is a muslim document. Wonder what George Washington and company would think of that. Does bin Laden know?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

This is all a fallacy that Muslims indulge in and we allow them to indulge in.

Bukhari collected his hadiths around 846AD - that’s 2 hundred years after the event. Most of the people listed in the isnad already died long before. It is all hearsay. I hear this person say that person say …

All Bukhari really knew was the last person in the isnad.

Think about it. It’s like your father said your grandfather said your great grandfather said your great-great grandfather said your great-great-great grandfather said your great-great-great-great grandfather said your great-great-great-great grandfather said xxx happened.

All you can be sure of is that your father said this. The rest you really don’t know. But Muslims like to delude themselves nonetheless.

It’s worse than that. As Schacht shows, these isnad’s show comman links, that is, with multiple transmission there is a single person said to a single person,etc. until you get someone (the common link) who told a number of people. The problem is that the common links are rarely the companions of the prophet, nor their successors, but someone afterwards, i.e. nearly or more than a century from the event. You can also trace changes in the story too.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

No Moslem here has ever accepted that one can judge the ‘greatness’ of the Koranic verse from a translation!

Secondly you judging for yourself is in fact the problem, despite hamba2han’s suggestion that one can prove it objectively.

I’ve already pointed out the futility of the ‘challenge’

Great! Based on you thinking that it’s beautiful. All the people here disagreeing with you obviously don’t think so. Why are they wrong, and you are right, when judging beauty?

Yes, and we have yet gotten the criteria to judge this.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

inJESUS;2586604:

Excellent post InJesus, as always!

Vickie

 

[Isa_Almisry]

But the translation can convay the

How many Authorised Arabic Litrature Scholars are here in this thread?

At least one.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You

Tell me how was these veified, those appocrypha were written before Mohamed; name of the person who wrote those apocrypha books; exact time of the writing.

 

[inJESUS]

Khalfan, i know that you believe the authors of the Bible are unknown and hence cannot be considered inspired to you.

What do you makes of this hadith qudsi taken from what the “unknown” author of Matthew wrote?

Hadith Qudsi 18:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) will say on the Day of Resurrection:

O son of Adam, I fell ill and you visited Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so had fallen ill and you visited him not? Did you not know that had you visited him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so asked you for food and you fed him not? Did you notknow that had you fed him you would surely have found that (the reward for doing so) with Me? O son of Adam, I asked you to give Me to drink and you gave Me not to drink. He will say: O Lord, how should I give You to drink when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: My servant So-and-so asked you to give him to drink and you gave him not to drink. Had you given him to drink you would have surely found that with Me.

Compare:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by MY FATHER; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46

Or:

Narrated AbudDarda’:
I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: If any of you is suffering from anything or his brother is suffering, he should say: Our Lord is Allah Who is in the heaven, holy is Thy name, Thy command reigns supreme in the heaven and the earth, as Thy mercy in the heaven, make Thy mercy in the earth; forgive us our sins, and our errors; Thou art the Lord of good men; send down mercy from Thy mercy, and remedy, and remedy from Thy remedy on this pain so that it is healed up. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 28, Number 3883)

Compare:

“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” **Matthew 6:9-13 **

cont…

 

[inJESUS]

Or :
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
I heard Allah’s Apostle while he was standing on the pulpit, saying, “The remaining period of your stay (on the earth) in comparison to the nations before you, is like the period between the 'Asr prayer and sunset. The people of the Torah were given the Torah and they acted upon it till midday, and then they were worn out and were given for their labor, one Qirat each. Then the people of the Gospel were given the Gospel and they acted upon it till the time of the 'Asr prayer, and then they were worn out and were given (for their labor), one Qirat each. Then you people were given the Quran and you acted upon it till sunset and so you were given two Qirats each (double the reward of the previous nations).” Then the people of the Torah said, ‘O our Lord! These people have done a little labor (much less than we) but have taken a greater reward.’ Allah said, ‘Have I withheld anything from your reward?’ They said, ‘No.’ Then Allah said, ‘That is My Favor which I bestow on whom I wish.’" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 559)

Compare:

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ So they went. He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’ ‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered. He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’ When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’ The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’ But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” **Matthew 20:1-16 **

Narrated AbuUmamah

Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, “Blessed is he who has seen me, but seven times blessed is he who has not seen me but has believed in me.”

Ahmad transmitted it. (Number 1688- taken from the ALIM CD-ROM Version)

Compare:

“Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’” **John 20:29 **

What about Muhammad quoting Paul’s words?

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “ALLAH SAID, ‘I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things) as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.’” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 589)

“However, as it is written: ‘No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him.’” 1 Corinthians 2:9

Is the author of Matthew inspired or not? is Paul a self-claimed apostle or not? are John’s words humans’ words?

 

[Montalban]

But the translation can convay the message. May be not 100 % accurate.

I don’t deny that but Moslems aren’t arguing “We believe the Koran because the English edition conveys the message so good it must be from god”

Lets talk about my suggestion.

Let’s talk about the Moslem challenge. I’ve already noted that you can’t, if you read my poem prove it to be inferior to the Koran. You can *believe *that it is

How many Authorised Arabic Litrature Scholars are here in this thread?

I don’t know. What’s that prove?

 

[Montalban]

Yes, and we have yet gotten the criteria to judge this.

I’m still waiting the ‘formula’ to be put forward by which we will measure ‘truth’ and ‘beauty’.

The Moslem ‘challenge’ is simply to say “No one can meet this challenge” and to all contenders you reply “No one can meet this challenge”

It’s simply circular.

 

[inJESUS]

I fail to understand the criteria as well. The Quran is neither full poetry nor full prose. Many passages are repeated. Ideas are not linked coherently. Many grammatical mistakes and when pointed out, Muslims say you must “insert” a virtual word and it becomes correct or the noun in the first sentence is related to verb in the last sentence. Not to mention that in my passages, Muhammad’s words and Allah’s words are interchangeable that you end up not knowing when it is the one or the other.

 

[Montalban]

Yes, and we have yet gotten the criteria to judge this.

You mean you!

 

[Montalban]

I fail to understand the criteria as well. The Quran is neither full poetry nor full prose. Many passages are repeated. Ideas are not linked coherently. Many grammatical mistakes and when pointed out, Muslims say you must “insert” a virtual word and it becomes correct or the noun in the first sentence is related to verb in the last sentence. Not to mention that in my passages, Muhammad’s words and Allah’s words are interchangeable that you end up not knowing when it is the one or the other.

Indeed, there are words in the Koran that have NO meaning!

 

[Khalfan]

I fail to understand the criteria as well. The Quran is neither full poetry nor full prose.

It is not against its claim of divinity.

Many passages are repeated.

It too is not against its claim of divinity.

Ideas are not linked coherently.

It too is not against its claim of divinity.

Many grammatical mistakes and when pointed out, Muslims say you must “insert” a virtual word and it becomes correct or the noun in the first sentence is related to verb in the last sentence.

There should be a correct grammer then. Just like the UK english and US english grammer is not the same, Arabic grammer too have its own dependency on country, people and time etc. Which arabic grammer text you were referring on your reserch on the grammatical mistakes in Quran?

Not to mention that in my passages, Muhammad’s words and Allah’s words are interchangeable that you end up not knowing when it is the one or the other.

Where do you have problem? Specify.

 

[Khalfan]

Indeed, there are words in the Koran that have NO meaning!

Can you tell me one word?

 

[Khalfan]

I don’t deny that but Moslems aren’t arguing “We believe the Koran because the English edition conveys the message so good it must be from god”

Muslims do use translation in their own language to understand Quran. If we face problem in understanding it properly, since many arabic words doesn’t have correct words in english or in other language, we do refer with arabic scholars and texts. For non-arab people, the translation do the primary work to undertand Quran. So, since I am new to Montalbanis, i need a translation as a first step then I need to learn the language directly from a scholar like you. Can you help me? Please translate the poem into english for me.

Let’s talk about the Moslem challenge. I’ve already noted that you can’t, if you read my poem prove it to be inferior to the Koran. You can *believe *that it is

Are we there yet, in a stage to come to a conclusion?

I don’t know. What’s that prove?

They were supposed to make their statement on the beauty of Quran. And you said some in the forum did that. Were they arabic scholars?