Challenge met?

[Khalfan]

Or :
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
I heard Allah’s Apostle while he was standing on the pulpit, saying, “The remaining period of your stay (on the earth) in comparison to the nations before you, is like the period between the 'Asr prayer and sunset. The people of the Torah were given the Torah and they acted upon it till midday, and then they were worn out and were given for their labor, one Qirat each. Then the people of the Gospel were given the Gospel and they acted upon it till the time of the 'Asr prayer, and then they were worn out and were given (for their labor), one Qirat each. Then you people were given the Quran and you acted upon it till sunset and so you were given two Qirats each (double the reward of the previous nations).” Then the people of the Torah said, ‘O our Lord! These people have done a little labor (much less than we) but have taken a greater reward.’ Allah said, ‘Have I withheld anything from your reward?’ They said, ‘No.’ Then Allah said, ‘That is My Favor which I bestow on whom I wish.’" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 559)

Compare:

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ So they went. He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’ ‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered. He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’ When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’ The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’ But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” **Matthew 20:1-16 **

Narrated AbuUmamah

Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, “Blessed is he who has seen me, but seven times blessed is he who has not seen me but has believed in me.”

Ahmad transmitted it. (Number 1688- taken from the ALIM CD-ROM Version)

Compare:

“Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’” **John 20:29 **

What about Muhammad quoting Paul’s words?

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “ALLAH SAID, ‘I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things) as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.’” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 589)

“However, as it is written: ‘No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him.’” 1 Corinthians 2:9

Is the author of Matthew inspired or not? is Paul a self-claimed apostle or not? are John’s words humans’ words?

Were the Gospel writers writing those on their own authority? Or of Jesus? Were Paul writing those on his own authority or did he use any sorce for his writings?

 

[Khalfan]

In some cases we have actual copies that predate Mohamed (sic). In others, writers who predate them quote them.

Specify the books.

Btw the Protoevangelion of James provides most of the narrative in the Quran on Jesus’ birth. It dates form the second second century.

What if it was added later, since addition and removal in Bible is possible even today?

We have some scraps of the NT within a generation of its writing (Mark, John). We have lots of later copies, which, from all over the known world and in a variety of languages, establish a text.

Still you have to assume the originality of the first copy.

you don’t. It decided then. did you decided on your own that the Quran was divine?

Yes. The divinity of Quran is witnessed to my mind with all criteria I used to testify it. And so I believe in it. Not becasue some one believed it for me.

You got us. So there’s no difference between contemporary witness to the Crucifixion and Resurrection and an account written 6 centuries later.

The resurrection story in the 4 Gospels itself doesn’t match each other in most of the details. Resurrection story in Mark is a later addition accrding to NIV.

 

[Montalban]

Can you tell me one word?

No. How about several…

Alif Lam Ra- Suras 10, 11, 12, 14, 15.
Alif Lam Mim- Suras 2, 3, 29, 30, 31, 32.
Alif Lam Mim Ra- Sura 13.
Alif Lam Mim Sad- Sura 7.
Ha Mim- Suras 40, 41, 43, 44, 45, 46.
Ha Mim 'Ain Sin Qaf- Sura 42.
Sad- Sura 38.
Ta Sin- Sura 27.
Ta Sin Mim- Suras 26, 28.
Ta Ha- Sura 20.
Qaf- Sura 50.
Ka Ha Ya 'Ain Sad- Sura 19.
Nun- Sura 68.
Ya Sin- Sura 36.

list found here

 

[Montalban]

Muslims do use translation in their own language to understand Quran. If we face problem in understanding it properly, since many arabic words doesn’t have correct words in english or in other language, we do refer with arabic scholars and texts. For non-arab people, the translation do the primary work to undertand Quran. So, since I am new to Montalbanis, i need a translation as a first step then I need to learn the language directly from a scholar like you. Can you help me? Please translate the poem into english for me.

I’ve already discussed this aspect of your argument. You’re simply stalling because you know what your conclusion is already

Are we there yet, in a stage to come to a conclusion?

Yes, unless you admit right here and now that the challenge posed re: the Koran has been met, otherwise you’re just wasting time.

They were supposed to make their statement on the beauty of Quran. And you said some in the forum did that. Were they arabic scholars?

You need to make up your mind again which argument do you want to make. First you go on about the validity of translations into English, now you’re back to defending Arabic.

 

[Montalban]

The resurrection story in the 4 Gospels itself doesn’t match each other in most of the details. Resurrection story in Mark is a later addition accrding to NIV.

Where in the NIV does it say that Mark is a later ‘addition’ (or do you mean edition ? )

 

[inJESUS]

Were the Gospel writers writing those on their own authority? Or of Jesus?

the gospel writers were inspired.

Were Paul writing those on his own authority or did he use any sorce for his writings?

 

[inJESUS]

Originally Posted by inJESUS
I fail to understand the criteria as well. The Quran is neither full poetry nor full prose.

It is not against its claim of divinity.

so where does eloquence idea come from if it is neither prose nor poetry?eloquence in what?

Quote:
Many passages are repeated.

It too is not against its claim of divinity.

in any course we take, repetitive words/ sentence/ paragraphs are something negative style-wise and not something miraculous or unmatchabeable. So again, what is the criteria of eloquence?

Quote:
Ideas are not linked coherently.

It too is not against its claim of divinity.

so what we cannot match is the incoerence of the Quran? what eloquence is there in a non-coherent book?

There should be a correct grammer then. Just like the UK english and US english grammer is not the same, Arabic grammer too have its own dependency on country, people and time etc. Which arabic grammer text you were referring on your reserch on the grammatical mistakes in Quran?

in other words, we cannot check the grammar of the Quran cuz it could be correct to x standard but not correct to y standard. Where is eloquence again?

Quote:
Not to mention that in my passages, Muhammad’s words and Allah’s words are interchangeable that you end up not knowing when it is the one or the other.

Where do you have problem? Specify

Say: ‘If the sea were ink for the Words of **MY **Lord, the sea would be spent before the Words of **MY **Lord are spent, though **We **brought replenishment the like of it.’ S. 18:109

Muhammad will replenish the sea? or is it a shift from the words of allah to the words of Muhammad in the same sentence?

What, shall I seek after any judge but God? For it is He who sent down to you the Book well-distinguished; and those whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from thy Lord with the truth; so be not thou of the doubters. S. 6:114

again? from Muhammad words to Allahs words suddenly?

What, is every man of them eager to be admitted to a Garden of Bliss? Not so; for We have created them of what they know. No!** I swear by the Lord of the Easts and Wests,** surely We are able to substitute a better than they; We shall not be outstripped. S. 70:38-41

So were the People of Noah before them for they wickedly transgressed. With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is **We **Who create the vastness of pace. And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out! And of every thing **We **have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction. Hasten ye then (at once) to God: I am from Him a Warner to you, clear and open! And make not another an object of worship with God: I am from Him a Warner to you, clear and open! S. 51:46-51

Surely We have sent thee as a witness, good tidings to bear, and warning, that you may believe in God and His Messenger and succour Him/him, and reverence Him/him, and that you may give Him/him glory at the dawn and in the evening. S. 48:8-9

Who does “him” refer to when the last name is Muhammad?

this shift from Allah to Muhammad to Allah again with “He”, “we”, “i” in the same sentence can be called anything but clarity and eloquence.

So again, what is this big challenge if what i mentioned above are enough to question the miraculous eloquence of the Quran in human standards, let alone divine one?

 

[Khalfan]

so where does eloquence idea come from if it is neither prose nor poetry?eloquence in what?

In its unique way of presentation.

in any course we take, repetitive words/ sentence/ paragraphs are something negative style-wise and not something miraculous or unmatchabeable. So again, what is the criteria of eloquence?

Not necesserily. What you said is just an opinion. How do I see the repetions is, it implies the importance of the message in it. Just like in Sura Rahman, God asking “which of the signs the deny?” no less than 31 times. Each time he mention a sign and ask this question. It is for the people of blind faith.

so what we cannot match is the incoerence of the Quran? what eloquence is there in a non-coherent book?

It too about the unique way of presentation. Let’s take a subject, the prophets. Not every verse about the prophets are mentioned in Sura Al Anbiyah, since the situation and time were differnt for all those verses. Quran is not a report of history of 23 years from the life of Mohamed (pbuh). So there is no point in expecting Quran to be presented as it in Gospels.

in other words, we cannot check the grammar of the Quran cuz it could be correct to x standard but not correct to y standard. Where is eloquence again?

Quran is one of the oldest available scripture in Arabic. All the texts of grammer do refer to Quran as source of information.

Say: ‘If the sea were ink for the Words of **MY **Lord, the sea would be spent before the Words of **MY **Lord are spent, though **We **brought replenishment the like of it.’ S. 18:109

Muhammad will replenish the sea? or is it a shift from the words of allah to the words of Muhammad in the same sentence?

How does it begin? “SAY”. Who is asking mohamed (pbuh) to say and telling what to say, is GOD.

What, shall I seek after any judge but God? For it is He who sent down to you the Book well-distinguished; and those whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from thy Lord with the truth; so be not thou of the doubters. S. 6:114

again? from Muhammad words to Allahs words suddenly?

Is it Mohamed’s (pbuh) word? God himself giving the question and the answer for it.

What, is every man of them eager to be admitted to a Garden of Bliss? Not so; for We have created them of what they know. No!** I swear by the Lord of the Easts and Wests,** surely We are able to substitute a better than they; We shall not be outstripped. S. 70:38-41

God swearing on his own name.

So were the People of Noah before them for they wickedly transgressed. With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is **We **Who create the vastness of pace. And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out! And of every thing **We **have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction. Hasten ye then (at once) to God: I am from Him a Warner to you, clear and open! And make not another an object of worship with God: I am from Him a Warner to you, clear and open! S. 51:46-51

God reporting history that he commanding Noah to say to people that he is a warner to them.

Surely We have sent thee as a witness, good tidings to bear, and warning, that you may believe in God and His Messenger and succour Him/him, and reverence Him/him, and that you may give Him/him glory at the dawn and in the evening. S. 48:8-9

Who does “him” refer to when the last name is Muhammad?

God. Is that so complicated to understand?

this shift from Allah to Muhammad to Allah again with “He”, “we”, “i” in the same sentence can be called anything but clarity and eloquence.

So again, what is this big challenge if what i mentioned above are enough to question the miraculous eloquence of the Quran in human standards, let alone divine one?

It doesn’t prove anything but some openions or suggestion that ‘it could be better if it was this way’.

 

[Khalfan]

Where in the NIV does it say that Mark is a later ‘addition’ (or do you mean edition ? )

Here.

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

 

[Khalfan]

I’ve already discussed this aspect of your argument. You’re simply stalling because you know what your conclusion is already

And you don’t know your conclusion?

Yes, unless you admit right here and now that the challenge posed re: the Koran has been met, otherwise you’re just wasting time.

You are not even ready to prove your claim is true. Why should I compromise on something unproved? And I really feel the waste of time. Can we discuss something meaningful?

You need to make up your mind again which argument do you want to make. First you go on about the validity of translations into English, now you’re back to defending Arabic.

See… you don’t want a test of quality to be done on your poem. Challenge of Quran is o make a sura LIKE it in every sense. It is not only the beauty, but many other levels too like the meaning. In concern of beauty, the beauty of arabic should be done by an arabic scholar. So that I have asked for it. I am not a Montalbanis scholar. So I can’t judge the beauty of your poem until you help me to learn montalbanis. What we can do for the time being get me a refernce book or link where i can refer the language montalbanis according to the translation you provide for your poem. And in this case of testifying the message, we can use english translation of Quran for better understanding.

 

[Khalfan]

No. How about several…

Alif Lam Ra- Suras 10, 11, 12, 14, 15.
Alif Lam Mim- Suras 2, 3, 29, 30, 31, 32.
Alif Lam Mim Ra- Sura 13.
Alif Lam Mim Sad- Sura 7.
Ha Mim- Suras 40, 41, 43, 44, 45, 46.
Ha Mim 'Ain Sin Qaf- Sura 42.
Sad- Sura 38.
Ta Sin- Sura 27.
Ta Sin Mim- Suras 26, 28.
Ta Ha- Sura 20.
Qaf- Sura 50.
Ka Ha Ya 'Ain Sad- Sura 19.
Nun- Sura 68.
Ya Sin- Sura 36.

list found here

It is not words, but some arabic letters that has to do some mathematical miraculous combinations as far as we know till date. It is sign for the divinity of Quran.

 

[Khalfan]

the gospel writers were inspired.

How do you know that?

Paul was inspired as well.

How do you know that?

Whoever inspired these “unknown” authors, their writings are in the Quran.

What if it was fabricated later by some anti-Islamists? What if it was teachings of Jesus (pbuh) which Paul came to know from contemporary people and used in his writings? Until you prove these claims as wrong, you cannot prove yourself right.

 

[Montalban]

It is not words, but some arabic letters that has to do some mathematical miraculous combinations as far as we know till date. It is sign for the divinity of Quran.

How do you know they’re not words? Do they use symbols for Arabic numbers?

Show me that they are known! You’ve known that these exist, I met your challenge. You should acknowledge this point.

 

[Montalban]

How do you know that?

Even the Koran ackowledge Injeel

What if it was fabricated later by some anti-Islamists? What if it was teachings of Jesus (pbuh) which Paul came to know from contemporary people and used in his writings? Until you prove these claims as wrong, you cannot prove yourself right.

Are you suggesting that 600 years before Islam people were anti-Islamic?

 

[Khalfan]

How do you know they’re not words? Do they use symbols for Arabic numbers?

Show me that they are known! You’ve known that these exist, I met your challenge. You should acknowledge this point.

Are you sick of meeting challenges? I can’t see you have met any challenge yet.

 

[Montalban]

Are you sick of meeting challenges? I can’t see you have met any challenge yet.

I met your challenge to find words in the Koran that have no meaning.

You then make up a story about them not being ‘words’ but Maths symbols

Even if this were true, they still don’t have meaning.

Therefore you can argue that the Koran is ‘inspired’ and better than any human verse because it contains things in it that have no meaning! Wow!

And no, I’m not sick of meeting challenges. I’ve met yours. You fail to prove your claim that they’re not words

 

[paarsurrey]

See… you don’t want a test of quality to be done on your poem. Challenge of Quran is o make a sura LIKE it in every sense. It is not only the beauty, but many other levels too like the meaning. In concern of beauty, the beauty of arabic should be done by an arabic scholar. So that I have asked for it. I am not a Montalbanis scholar. So I can’t judge the beauty of your poem until you help me to learn montalbanis. What we can do for the time being get me a refernce book or link where i can refer the language montalbanis according to the translation you provide for your poem. And in this case of testifying the message, we can use english translation of Quran for better understanding.

Hi

It is good suggestion of Khalfan, and it seem reasonable to me.

Thanks

Since Jesus left no written Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, or authenticated by him when he last departed from Galilee; hence my Catholic friends believe many creeds created by the Catholic Clergy not originated by Jesus himself in person.

 

[Montalban]

Hi

It is good suggestion of Khalfan, and it seem reasonable to me.It would indeed seem reasonable to a man who can’t even contain himself or restrain himself from describing all people on this thread (who are non-Moslem) as Catholics.

Why you want to keep advertising this ignorance is beyond my understanding… especially as I’ve pointed it out to you so many times.

anyway…
Does your version of the Koran also contain nonsense words/symbols?

 

[paarsurrey]

Why you want to keep advertising this ignorance is beyond my understanding…

Hi

Since I am an ignorant person as you say, so I must not answer your questions. You are self guided.

Thanks

GodAllahYHWH is All-Knowing and All-Wise; one should invariably give Claim and Reason on all important issues from one’s Revealed Book; one shouldn’t try putting one’s own words into God’s mouth. Kindly let God speak for Claim and Reason and you would know the truth for sure.

 

[Montalban]

Hi

Since I am an ignorant person as you say, so I must not answer your questions. You are self guided.

ThanksSince you don’t answer my questions anyway, why make this as an act of protest now?


I don’t care if you don’t answer anymore. What I care about is you continually addressing your posts on this non-Catholic part of the forum as if only Catholics are responding.

You make terms up such as CatholicGod (as one word) and you refer to me several times as being Catholic.

I’m sorry that you feel insulted that I should have to harp on about this so many times.