Challenge-Riposte, Sarcasm, and Anger in Jesus and the Saints?

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I wanted to come on here and talk about this, because it is kind of confusing me. I think a lot of Traditionalists have said things about this, but are we just too freaking nice? I feel like Christians take a very serene, sentimental doormat approach to things these days. Thomas Aquinas mentioned it, and it truly seems we HAVE been taught an ideal of “unreasonable patience”. The more we get pushed into the private sphere the more we lose our edge, seeing as the public sphere is generally where all the topics I listed in the title of this thread traditionally take place. It makes me uncomfortable when our moral code is so overly gentle and serene that we practically get offended when reading the Gospels (!) Should we really be squirming when we read Tertullian’s or Ignatius’ works? But then I get scared that I’ll overstep my boundaries and sin because I don’t know how a Christian is supposed be when they have to get tough. I don’t know how to hold it in harmony with charity, the fruit of the spirit, and so on. But it has to be true — I mean, if it WERE false then our Savior would be a sinner… and you know we can’t have that. But it’s so hard to understand, with how I’ve (or WE’VE) been taught, how Jesus could insult people without sinning. It’s almost like a holy rap battle, if you’ve ever seen those. This brings in so many questions about Tradition, Scripture, saints, history, and even differences in culture and such that I don’t know where to begin.

For a concrete example, is the way Fr. Z writes on wdtprs.com sinful? Or is Dave Armstrong too polemical? Heck, even God uses irony — “Behold, man has become like one of us.” 😛 He drowned Mr. “Toss the babies in the river”-Pharaoh even! Elijah straight up mocked the prophets of Baal, and even Our Lord and Savior would one up people in public polemical debates. But these days none of this flies with us anymore.

And then what about all those passages about even God laughing at the downfall of sinners? I mean, come on, Pharaoh drowning? That Guy has a sense of humor. But then what about the verse about not delighting in the downfall of sinners? Ayeeee…

(While we’re at it, did y’all know how pun-tastic the original languages of the Bible tend to be?)
 
I wonder if our sense of justice is shot. It seems that some of us would even be hesitant to pursue legitimate legal action against others. Ugh.
 
Louis IX once remarked that the only interaction a Christian should have with a blasphemer is running his sword through his bowels as far as it could go.

That’s *Saint *Louis IX, by the way.
 
sw85 said:
Louis IX once remarked that the only interaction a Christian should have with a blasphemer is running his sword through his bowels as far as it could go.

That’s *Saint *Louis IX, by the way.
Click to expand...
The fact that someone is canonized does not make their statements infallible, unless they were Pope.

You would not be rewarded for skewering someone for blasphemy.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
The fact that someone is canonized does not make their statements infallible, unless they were Pope.

You would not be rewarded for skewering someone for blasphemy.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA
Click to expand...
Perhaps not. But then, it was clearly no impediment to sainthood in his case. And if not that, then clearly a harsh word to a deserving fool is occasionally merited.
 
WoundedIcon said:
I wanted to come on here and talk about this, because it is kind of confusing me. I think a lot of Traditionalists have said things about this, but are we just too freaking nice? I feel like Christians take a very serene, sentimental doormat approach to things these days. Thomas Aquinas mentioned it, and it truly seems we HAVE been taught an ideal of “unreasonable patience”. The more we get pushed into the private sphere the more we lose our edge, seeing as the public sphere is generally where all the topics I listed in the title of this thread traditionally take place. It makes me uncomfortable when our moral code is so overly gentle and serene that we practically get offended when reading the Gospels (!) Should we really be squirming when we read Tertullian’s or Ignatius’ works? But then I get scared that I’ll overstep my boundaries and sin because I don’t know how a Christian is supposed be when they have to get tough. I don’t know how to hold it in harmony with charity, the fruit of the spirit, and so on. But it has to be true — I mean, if it WERE false then our Savior would be a sinner… and you know we can’t have that. But it’s so hard to understand, with how I’ve (or WE’VE) been taught, how Jesus could insult people without sinning. It’s almost like a holy rap battle, if you’ve ever seen those. This brings in so many questions about Tradition, Scripture, saints, history, and even differences in culture and such that I don’t know where to begin.

For a concrete example, is the way Fr. Z writes on wdtprs.com sinful? Or is Dave Armstrong too polemical? Heck, even God uses irony — “Behold, man has become like one of us.” 😛 He drowned Mr. “Toss the babies in the river”-Pharaoh even! Elijah straight up mocked the prophets of Baal, and even Our Lord and Savior would one up people in public polemical debates. But these days none of this flies with us anymore.

And then what about all those passages about even God laughing at the downfall of sinners? I mean, come on, Pharaoh drowning? That Guy has a sense of humor. But then what about the verse about not delighting in the downfall of sinners? Ayeeee…

(While we’re at it, did y’all know how pun-tastic the original languages of the Bible tend to be?)
Click to expand...
This (as usual) comes down to a matter of intent. Jesus did a lot of rebuking…and I mean a lot. There wasn’t a scribe or Pharisee who didn’t know the business end of Jesus’ righteous anger, and with good reason - these were Jewish religious leaders who by their words and deeds were leading the faithful astray. So because Jesus’ intentions (to protect the faithful and bring them nearer to God) were pure, one can reasonably say that what could be seen as His lack of charitableness towards said scribes and Pharisees was not sinful (and of course because we know that He was, by definition, without sin). However, when he wasn’t in “righteous anger mode,” Jesus’ life was pretty much the definition of charity. He showed near-infinite patience with the folks that the rest of society had pretty much taken a dump on. Also remember that since the NT primarily chronicles Jesus’ public ministry (which was regrettably short), there are whole chunks of His life that we know next to nothing about. We got the highlight reel, which was sure to be loaded up with lots of righteous rebuking.

Which brings us to us rebuking others in the here and now. Yes, we are still called to be charitable. So when is righteous anger appropriate? Whenever I’m thinking about unloading on someone, I always ask myself two questions:

1.) Why am I doing this? Is it to defend my faith and to bring this person to a better understanding of God and the Church, or is it to make me feel better about myself and show someone up?

2.) Will a confrontational approach be productive with this individual? Will it “open their eyes,” or will it only serve to harden their hearts and drive them further away from God (an abhorrent result)?

There’s nothing wrong with standing up for your beliefs. There’s plenty wrong with acting in a fashion that drives people away from God and the Church.

Can you balance a charitable lifestyle with a righteous defense of the faith? That’s a question that each of us can only answer for himself or herself.
 
I should note that righteous anger is always an appropriate response if you find yourself under attack for your faith. I just wouldn’t necessarily break it out from the get-go if I’m trying to collegially discuss faith with someone who disagrees with the Church.
 
Reminds me of:

Those who are merciful to the evil, will be cruel to the kind.
-Talmudic proverb
 
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