Challenge to all here.

[guanophore]

Give ANY explanation to verses in Romans 9:11-13 that can elicit a response that Paul knew would come in verses 20-23. If you can do this by saying it is not discussing election and reprobation you win.

How would any arguement that denied the Holy Scriptures say what they really say result in any kind of “win”?

 

[earl40]

First of all, don’t assume Paul and Calvin think alike. They don’t. Calvin’s own thoughts on free will were derived in isolation from other parts of Scripture.

The Catholic Church does not teach that man’s free will overcomes God’s own infallible will. God’s will always prevails .

Conversely, God’s infallible will also does not trump man’s free will. This is Catholic teaching as well.

And here is where the Catholic teaching gets it right on predestination and reprobation. God does predestine some to heaven and some to hell, but always with man’s free will in mind.

So now clarify please. Are you denying that man has free will at all?

Man is ALWAYS free to choose what ever he wants. The point is that fallen man and his will loves evil because it is dead in trespass and sin.

This is how it works.
Adam was created with the ability to sin and not to sin.
Fallen Adam had no ability to not sin,
Redeemed Adam had the ability to sin or not to sin because of the irresistible grace of regeneration.

The following is know as the proto evangel…“21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them”
You will notice that God clothed them and did not merely give them clothes.

 

[earl40]

Exactly. Before we even begin to discuss, we can’t have an assumption that the Catholic church teaches something she doesn’t. So far, Earl has made an assumption that man’s free will overcomes God’s own will, which isn’t true.

So do you deny that man can resist the grace of regeneration or not?

 

[earl40]

How would any arguement that denied the Holy Scriptures say what they really say result in any kind of “win”?

All I put out there is any explanation of Romans 9 that can elicit a response that comes in Romans 9:20-23. I have yet to see any here explain Romans 9 that can do such.

Still waiting.

 

[guanophore]

Man is ALWAYS free to choose what ever he wants. The point is that fallen man and his will loves evil because it is dead in trespass and sin.

This is a common misperception of the Truth that is fomented through the heresies of Calvin. It is a false conclusion, based upon a false premise.

On the other hand, the Apostles taught that fallen man continues to search and yearn for God, but is unable to reach Him without grace. Our fallen nature is not “totally depraved” as Calvin claimed, but wounded. Man still has the ability to seek after and to find God and to respond to grace.

This is how it works.
Adam was created with the ability to sin and not to sin.
Fallen Adam had no ability to not sin,
Redeemed Adam had the ability to sin or not to sin because of the irresistible grace of regeneration.

This is also a Calvanistic myth. Adam and his descendents most certainly DO have the ability to not sin. They cannot operate it apart from Grace, but if what you are saying was true, then no one in the OT would have been righteous/saved/holy because the HS had not yet been given(as on Pentecost).

Human beings do not have to sin. We were not created for sin, and sin is not part of God’s plan for us. It is possible for us to follow His commandments.

The following is know as the proto evangel…“21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them”
You will notice that God clothed them and did not merely give them clothes.

Not sure what point you are trying to make.

 

[guanophore]

So do you deny that man can resist the grace of regeneration or not?

Yes, we deny that Calvanistic heresy. Man can, indeed, resist God’s grace.

Luke 7:30
30 But by refusing to be baptized by him, the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves.

God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth. Some choose to reject His grace, and He allows this.

All I put out there is any explanation of Romans 9 that can elicit a response that comes in Romans 9:20-23. I have yet to see any here explain Romans 9 that can do such.

Still waiting.

I guess you will wait for a long time.

It seems to me that there is no better “explanation” than the one given by the Apostle himself.

St. Paul is Catholic, writing to the Catholics In Rome about the Catholic faith. It is best understood within the context of the faith in which it was written and lived.

For some reason you seem to think that reading this passage unhinges Catholic faith. Maybe that is because we don’t read passages such as this in isolation from other passages that also teach us about predestination and reprobation.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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