Challenge to Protestants - Faith or Grace

[But_for_Grace]

In your opinion are we saved by faith or grace, if one then why not the other? If we have to believe then where is grace? If by grace then what is the necessity of faith?

 

[E.E.N.S]

You sure do a lot of these “challenges” for protestants BfG!

 

[But_for_Grace]

Yes it may seem that way lately, but always significantly fewer than points of contention between the Catholic Church and Protestant Churches. Understanding may be the best way to move beyond hostility towards unity.

 

[amontoya]

I am a non-catholic Christian. We are saved by grace through faith; please see Romans 1:5, Romans 5:2, and Ephesians 2:8. However, we are not saved by faith alone. We must have faith, repent of our sins, and be baptized; Acts 2:38.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

amontoya:

I am a non-catholic Christian. We are saved by grace through faith; please see Romans 1:5, Romans 5:2, and Ephesians 2:8. However, we are not saved by faith alone. We must have faith, repent of our sins, and be baptized; Acts 2:38.

You sound like a Catholic to me.

 

[bengal_fan]

Semper Fi:

You sound like a Catholic to me.

or church of Christ…

we are saved by grace, through faith. faith is only faith if it produces works. therefore, grace comes to us (and saves us) when we have a faith that produces works. all three are part of the process, but what ultimately saves us is the grace of God.

 

[reen12]

quote:bengal_ fan

or church of Christ…

we are saved by grace, through faith. faith is only faith if it produces works. therefore, grace comes to us (and saves us) when we have a faith that produces works. all three are part of the process, but what ultimately saves us is the grace of God

Well said, bengal_ fan!

When trying to deal with the faith/works issue, I
use the term “lively faith”…that is, faith is not
faith, without obedience to the commands of Jesus.

…we are saved by grace, through faith.

“Amazing Grace…”

Best,
reen12

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

bengal_fan:

or church of Christ…

we are saved by grace, through faith. faith is only faith if it produces works. therefore, grace comes to us (and saves us) when we have a faith that produces works. all three are part of the process, but what ultimately saves us is the grace of God.

Indeed. James sums it up pretty nicely.

 

[Kristina_P]

bengal_fan:

therefore, grace comes to us (and saves us) when we have a faith that produces works. all three are part of the process, but what ultimately saves us is the grace of God.

Do you believe that the grace precipitates the faith, or vice versa?

I’m an Anglican who was raised Baptist, and I’ve never recognized any sort of conflict between grace and faith. I think the best summary of the issue that scripture offers is Ephesians 2:8-10: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” I’ve always interpreted this to mean that faith is sufficient for salvation, but faith is by its very nature a gift of grace that carries with it regeneration and therefore good works. The grace of God precipitates my faith which precipitates the works, which God already had planned to start with. I can’t save myself with works, because even the works are ultimately of the grace of God. Is there really much conflict here among any of the denominations, including Catholics?

 

[But_for_Grace]

That is what I want to see, are we as diffrent as we sound, or are we all saying the same thing in diffrent ways?

 

[Zooey]

I can’t see how faith & grace can be separated. And if you have grace, and you have faith, you are going to have works.
We may express this in a variety of ways, but it a lot of it comes down to semantics a lot of the time…
Mind you, as a Methodist, I think we are a little closer to the Catholic understanding of the process than some other protestants…as in a number of things.
But I think that the more we talk to each other, the more we will begin to recognize one another as fellow Christian believers…

 

[bengal_fan]

Kristina P.:

Do you believe that the grace precipitates the faith, or vice versa?

i personally interpret it that faith precipitates faith. eph. 2 says we are saved by grace “through faith”. the grace comes because of the faith (in my opinion). calvinists would probably say grace comes first because God has to give us the grace to believe and an armenian would say that faith is first because we choose God of our own free will. i would fall some where towards the middle on this (falling more on us choosing God). i believe that the Holy Spirit must move on us (and in us) for us to accept the grace of God, but i also believe that God chooses everyone, but only the saved have chosen Him. hope that makes sense.

 

[ahimsaman72]

But for Grace:

In your opinion are we saved by faith or grace, if one then why not the other? If we have to believe then where is grace? If by grace then what is the necessity of faith?

faith is the method or means of obtaining or being given the substance of grace.

faith is the verb - grace is the noun

Peace…

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!
Kristina P.:

Do you believe that the grace precipitates the faith, or vice versa?

Kristina, I think that grace does precipitate faith. God loved us before we knew to love God.

I believe that grace is “supernaturally natural” to what it means to be human. And while our natures are wounded through the fall and the image of God obscured in us, I do not think that, if that image were completely absent, we would be human–and this is the tragedy of sin–that it continues to obscure the image of God in us and make us less and less human. However, the presence of the image is, in itself, a grace. And it is the presence of this grace in us that allows us to have faith–and it is this faith which allows us to receive more of the graces which are constantly being showered upon us (or welling up within us, depending on your perspective, from the image of God and the seal/mark/character of baptism in us)–which allows us to have more faith, which allows us to receive more grace etc. until we become fully human–a vessel and conduit of grace to the world. This is the work of the Spirit in us, conforming us to our model, our goal and our way, Son of God, Son of Man, Christ Jesus.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[Kristina_P]

Deo Volente:

Grace & Peace!

Kristina, I think that grace does precipitate faith. God loved us before we knew to love God.

I believe that grace is “supernaturally natural” to what it means to be human. And while our natures are wounded through the fall and the image of God obscured in us, I do not think that, if that image were completely absent, we would be human–and this is the tragedy of sin–that it continues to obscure the image of God in us and make us less and less human. However, the presence of the image is, in itself, a grace. And it is the presence of this grace in us that allows us to have faith–and it is this faith which allows us to receive more of the graces which are constantly being showered upon us (or welling up within us, depending on your perspective, from the image of God and the seal/mark/character of baptism in us)–which allows us to have more faith, which allows us to receive more grace etc. until we become fully human–a vessel and conduit of grace to the world. This is the work of the Spirit in us, conforming us to our model, our goal and our way, Son of God, Son of Man, Christ Jesus.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

That is a very beautiful explanation. Your profile says you are Anglo-Catholic. What does that mean?

 

[Pax]

Kristina,

I think your understanding of grace, faith, works, and salvation is virtually synonymous with Catholic teaching. Faith, hope, and charity are supernatural gifts of God. Grace is a gift. We cannot have faith, hope and trust in God, or love God with our whole heart, mind, and strength without being moved by grace. Since these are gifts, it is probably appropriate to say that grace is the general term we use for God’s favor/free gift. Such things as faith, hope, and charity are specific gifts of grace.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Kristina P.:

That is a very beautiful explanation. Your profile says you are Anglo-Catholic. What does that mean?

Anglo-‘Catholic’ means that he belongs to the Anglican Communion (Church of England not in communion with Rome) that goes to a ‘High’ Church (i.e. not ‘evangelical’).

 

[Shlemele]

I’m Anababtist (Mennonite) and as I have been taught Grace is the door to Gods kingdom held open by Christ and his death and resurection. Faith is the path laid out for us to walk through his gate, and works should be as footprints on the way to lead others in the right direction. I know this is a bit simplistic but it is how I understand it.

it also reminds me of a good story;

One day a particularly pious man stood before saint Peter at the pearly gates. When he looked up and saw all the beauty around him he could hardly stand it! running up to saint Peter he was greeted warmly,

“Welcome to Heaven, before I can let you in though I need to let you know we go by a point system now” Peter said

A bit dumb founded the man asked “Ok so how does it work?”

“It’s quite simple actually, just tell me all the things in life that you think would count”

“Um, ok” the man replied as he franticaly tried to remember his life, How many points do I need?"

“Only 5000!” Peter replied

“Ok let me see here… I went to church every sunday, I was a deacon, and I visited the sick”

“Excellent, we’re off to a great start! three points, only 4,997 to go!”

Somewhat taken aback the man continued, “I spent the better part of my youth working in homeless shelters and in my twenties was a missionary”

“That was wonderfull by the way, we watched over you the whole time! Five points!” replied Peter.

Now the man started to panic just a bit, “Saint Peter I have always been faithfull to my wife and I have lead 40 of my friends to our lord!”

“Oh I remember each and every one of those, the celebrations we had! Twenty five points, this has to be some kind of record!”

Finally the man couldnt bear it any more " Saint Peter please, you must tell me. But for the grace og God how do you get into heaven?"

“Ah, there you go, 5000 points.”

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!
Semper Fi:

Anglo-‘Catholic’ means that he belongs to the Anglican Communion (Church of England not in communion with Rome) that goes to a ‘High’ Church (i.e. not ‘evangelical’).

Thanks for this, Semper Fi. Yep–I consider myself Catholic in the Anglican tradition, in communion with Canterbury, though not with Rome (though I pray for Pope Benedict XVI and the unity of the church). Since the Oxford/tractarian movement in the 19th century, Anglicanism has been recovering its Catholic roots that were covered over in the years following Henry VIII. Some Anglicans/Episcopalians welcome such things, some of us don’t, some of us are indifferent to them. I find myself spiritually at home in them. Some Anglicans think devotion to Mary, active interaction with the Communion of Saints, belief in Purgatory and the like too Roman–I find them very Christian.

Sorry if I got this thread off track! It’s a great topic!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!