CHALLENGE TO PROTESTANTS: Show Me One Quote of Deuterocanonical = Apocryphal

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Show me just ONE SINGLE quote where a Church Father specifically calls JUST ONE of the Deuterocanonical books (1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, Judith) “apocryphal.” Just show me ONE quote.

I’m sure you can find quotes that say they are not in the canon, but can you find a quote where at least one is referenced as apocryphal?
 
You would think this would be an easy task, since Protestants insist the Deuterocanonicals be called “Apocrypha.” Wouldn’t you think they at least had a quote to back up their claim?
 
The only thing I know is that Jerome was the first one to call them the Apocrypha.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
The only thing I know is that Jerome was the first one to call them the Apocrypha.
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Yeah, I’ve heard that. However, I have not seen the quote with my own eyes, and I’ve heard disputes that he actually called them “deuterocanonical” and not “apocrypha.” So, I’d love to see just one quote.
 
Guardian said:
Yeah, I’ve heard that. However, I have not seen the quote with my own eyes, and I’ve heard disputes that he actually called them “deuterocanonical” and not “apocrypha.” So, I’d love to see just one quote.
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I was looking for it but there are so many writings to look through that it is time consuming.😦
 
ALLFORHIM said:
I was looking for it but there are so many writings to look through that it is time consuming.😦
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I looked for it as well but with no luck. You think Protestants would be waving it like a flag if Jerome actually called them apocrypha. Hence why I don’t think he did.
 
Guardian said:
I looked for it as well but with no luck. You think Protestants would be waving it like a flag if Jerome actually called them apocrypha. Hence why I don’t think he did.
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Here I found something:The numbers in parenthesis are footnotes which are below.

THE PREFACE OF JEROME ON THE BOOK OF JUDITH
Among the Jews, the book of Judith is considered 92) among the apocrypha; its warrant for affirming those [apocryphal texts] 93) which have come into dispute is deemed less than sufficient. Moreover, since it was written in the Chaldean (4) language, it is counted among the historical books. But since the Nicene Council is considered to have counted this book among the number of sacred Scriptures, I have acquiesced to your (5) request (or should I say demand!): and, my other work set aside, from which I was forcibly restrained, I have given a single night’s work (6), translating according to sense rather than verbatim. I have hacked away at the excessively error-ridden panoply of the many codices; I conveyed in Latin only what I could find expressed coherently in the Chaldean words. Receive the widow Judith, example of chastity, and with triumphant praise acclaim her with eternal public celebration. For not only for women, but even for men, she has been given as a model by the one who rewards her chastity, who has ascribed to her such virtue that she conquered the unconquered among humanity, and surmounted the insurmountable.
Footnotes
  1. This was translated and released to the public domain by Andrew S. Jacobs, University of California Riverside, to whom many thanks. The text used was the Patrologia Latina text which reads:
PRAEFATIO HIERONYMI IN LIBRUM JUDITH.

[Col. 0037D] Apud Hebraeos liber Judith inter apocrypha legitur: [Col. 0038D] cujus auctoritas ad roboranda illa quae in [Col. 0039A] contentionem veniunt, minus idonea judicatur. Chaldaeo tamen sermone conscriptus, inter historias computatur. Sed quia hunc librum Synodus Nicaena in numero sanctarum Scripturarum legitur computasse, acquievi postulationi vestrae, immo exactioni: et sepositis occupationibus, quibus vehementer arctabar, huic unam lucubratiunculam dedi, magis sensum e sensu, quam ex verbo verbum transferens. Multorum codicum varietatem vitiosissimam [Col. 0040A] amputavi: sola ea, quae intelligentia integra in verbis Chaldaeis invenire potui, Latinis expressi. Accipite Judith viduam, castitatis exemplum, et triumphali laude, perpetuis eam praeconiis declarate. Hanc enim non solum feminis, sed et viris imitabilem dedit, qui castitatis ejus remunerator, virtutem ei talem tribuit, ut invictum omnibus hominibus vinceret, et insuperabilem superaret. (PL 29:37-39)
  1. legitur = counted/considered.
  2. illa, i.e. the apocryphal texts.
  3. By ‘Chaldean’ he means Old Aramaic.
  4. Your-Plural, vestrae. According to Migne, the translation was probably requested by Jerome’s friends and fellow ascetics Chromatius and Heliodorus: “From this it seems to us to correctly conclude that this preface was written to men, and not to women [the assumption being that most of the translations were done eitherfor men abroad or for Paula and/or Eustochium, his companions in Bethlehem-ASJ], and this very translation of Judith was offered forth by Jerome. To be sure, although there is no mention of the persons to whom it was dedicted in the editions or book manuscripts, Tillemont (and others subsequently) deduced from this, as they say, suitableness of the work to have been given to his beloved fellow-toilers πηιλοπονωταταις, in Greek] Paula and her daughter Eustochium. It seems more fitting to us that he was compelled to this work as well by those brother bishops, Chromatius and Heliodorus, in whose names he had dedicated earlier the neighboring books of Tobit…” etc. [Footnote - g] [Col. 0040C] (The footnote is to the part where Jerome talks about how Judith provides an example “even for men”)
  5. “Night’s work” = lucubratiuncula.
 
🙂 Now Guardian, you know they can’t do that 😉

When “Prince James” authorized his butcherd version he really messed things up didn’t he? :tsktsk:
 
Here is a little background:
Saint Jerome and the VulgatePerhaps one of the most influential Church Fathers was Eusebius Hieronymous (c340-420), better known as Saint Jerome. Jerome was commissioned by Pope Damasus (304-384) to write an authoritative translation of the Bible into Latin. As part of his preparation, Jerome went to Palestine and studied Hebrew under the Jewish scholars. The Jewish scholars showed him their canon and Jerome, not knowing much about the background of their selection, was impressed with their arguments. It was Jerome who introduced the term apocrypha (Greek for “hidden”) for the extra books in the Septuagint not included in the Hebrew canon. Jerome tried to persuade the Roman Church to reject the apocrypha but without any success. Jerome worked on the translation for fifteen years and finally produced the version known as the Vulgate (vulgata = Latin forwidespread). The Vulgate included the books from the Apocrypha. The difference in opinion between the Roman Church and Jerome regarding what constitute canonicity was to be repeated throughout the history of Christendom. [1]
 
I found two quotes by Jerome, neither of them call the Deuterocanonicals “apocrypha.”

“As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine.” - Jerome

"“Whatever falls outside these (Hebrew texts) . . . are not in the canon.” - Jerome

Still no quote yet!!
 
There is soemthign very telling in the ‘saga’ of Jerome wondering if they were inspired. For starters, it was one mans opinion, and eh was entitled to it, but somethign mroe beautiful happened in the process…

he basically said this:
I am unsure if some of these books are inspired, However, I will submit my will to the of Rome’s and Accept them as scripturer.

Becareful what topics you wish to Chose an attack on a church decision. It is actually a great story of Humity to the Church. He had doubts that it was valid, but because he knew that the Pope and magisterium were truely guided by the HS, he basicly said, but I can be wrong and submitted to the Will of the Catholic Church, forgoing his own inclination.

So, if you wish to use Jerome as your mentor and teacher, how come you dont also want to submit to the Church as HE did.

In Christ
 
Sirach, Foreword
Many important truths have been handed down to us through the law, the prophets, and the later authors; and for these the instruction and wisdom of Israel merit praise. Now, those who are familiar with these truths must not only understand them themselves but, as lovers of wisdom, be able, in speech and in writing, to help others less familiar. Such a one was my grandfather, Jesus, who, having devoted himself for a long time to the diligent study of the law, the prophets, and the rest of the books1 of our ancestors, and having developed a thorough familiarity with them, was moved to write something himself in the nature of instruction and wisdom, in order that those who love wisdom might, by acquainting themselves with what he too had written, make even greater progress in living in conformity with the divine law.
You therefore are now invited to read it in a spirit of attentive good will, with indulgence for any apparent failure on our part, despite earnest efforts, in the interpretation of particular passages. For words spoken originally in Hebrew are not as effective when they are translated into another language. That is true not only of this book but of the law itself, the prophets and the rest of the books, which differ no little when they are read in the original.
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Table of Contents Wisdom: Chapter 19 Next Chapter
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Footnotes
1 **The law, the prophets, and the rest of the books: the Sacred Scriptures of the Old Testament written before the time of Sirach, according to the threefold division of the present Hebrew Bible. **
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nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/sirach/intro.htm
 
ALLFORHIM said:
I was looking for it but there are so many writings to look through that it is time consuming.😦
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ALLFORHIM:

Since you can’t produce the quote, it’s not in evidence.

The fact is that he submitted to the authorities whom God had put in place over him and included the Books in the original places in the Canon of Scripture when he translated them.

That’s what gets accepted into evidence.

YBIC, Michael
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Here I found something:The numbers in parenthesis are footnotes which are below.

THE PREFACE OF JEROME ON THE BOOK OF JUDITH
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The rest of that post can be found here:
** Re: CHALLENGE TO PROTESTANTS: Show Me One Quote of Deuterocanonical = Apocryphal
ALLFORHIM:

Jerome was relying on the Canons of the Jewish Council of Jamnia in 90 A.D. These Canons also required all new members of and visitors to Synagogues to recite 4 CURSES Against Jesus of Nazareth and those who followed him who were called “Nazarenes”.

The Jews before the Council of Jamnia read the book of Judith and accepted it as Canonicl, along with the Pharisees and those of the Diaspora at the time of Christ.

That has been dealt with previously on this thread:

Re: The 7 books
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=131995&page=5

I can only remind you if who don’t have the time to read that thread or study this issue in detail:

Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3 NIV

Jerome translated the book of Judith and included it in its original place, because he accepted the Pope’s authority and that of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church instead of a Council that was convened after Christ’s Death & Resurrection and was called to deny that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah and to CURSE him and His followers.

The reason the Chaldean text of Judith was poor was that the Council of Jamnia forbade the copying of these books in their original languages by Jewish copyists.

I guess you have the same choice as Jerome. Accept the discernment of the Church of God throughout the ages, of that of a Council that CURSED our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

I really do think it is that simple.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
Traditional_Ang said:
The rest of that post can be found here:
** Re: CHALLENGE TO PROTESTANTS: Show Me One Quote of Deuterocanonical = Apocryphal
ALLFORHIM:

Jerome was relying on the Canons of the Jewish Council of Jamnia in 90 A.D. These Canons also required all new members of and visitors to Synagogues to recite 4 CURSES Against Jesus of Nazareth and those who followed him who were called “Nazarenes”.

The Jews before the Council of Jamnia read the book of Judith and accepted it as Canonicl, along with the Pharisees and those of the Diaspora at the time of Christ.

That has been dealt with previously on this thread:

Re: The 7 books
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=131995&page=5

I can only remind you if who don’t have the time to read that thread or study this issue in detail:

Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3 NIV

Jerome translated the book of Judith and included it in its original place, because he accepted the Pope’s authority and that of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church instead of a Council that was convened after Christ’s Death & Resurrection and was called to deny that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah and to CURSE him and His followers.

The reason the Chaldean text of Judith was poor was that the Council of Jamnia forbade the copying of these books in their original languages by Jewish copyists.

I guess you have the same choice as Jerome. Accept the discernment of the Church of God throughout the ages, of that of a Council that CURSED our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

I really do think it is that simple.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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Yeah your right since I dont have time to read all of the letters I shouldnt have responded.:o
 
Still no quote calling the Deuterocanonicals “apocrypha” by an ECF. I’m convinced no such quote exists.
 
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