Challenging Assumptions about Modesty

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

blackforest

Well-known member
I often hear it argued on CAF that women are morally responsible to dress modestly in order to accommodate men and keep their male proclivities for lust in check. I’ll state up front that I find the notion absurd. But let’s do an experiment with it.

For the straight guys: Below is a stock photo of a young, conventionally attractive woman. Whether or not she’s actually your “type,” suppose for the sake of argument that you know her personally and consider her attractive.

I hear constantly opinions about what women shouldn’t wear - short cut-off shorts, miniskirts, and bikinis. Let’s focus instead on what you think we should wear.

Knowing that “modesty” is a cultural construct, precisely how should this woman dress? How should she “lust-proof” herself in a way that meets your approval? If you had strong feelings for her as she’s dressed now, would it be her fault? If you had strong feelings for her while she wore a one-piece swimsuit at a public pool, would it be her fault?

In a situation calling for 'lust control," where do her responsibilities end and yours begin?

Ladies, you may weigh in, as well.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
You are so correct. I think she looks positively boring.
 
I don’t know if even answering the question makes sense. Sexual abuse and sexual harassment is NEVER justified, no matter what the woman wears. Make the argument less controversial. If you don’t lock your door at night, is it your fault you get robbed? It may be stupid, inappropriate, or ignorant. But a judge would never in any way consider leniency for the criminals just because your door was open. So why should a man get a pass or even the slightest bit of understanding or forgiveness?

Side note - I was shocked when Vice President Pence said he never meets with a woman alone, as the temptation to commit adultery would be too great. He won’t drink alcohol near a woman without his wife. This INCLUDES treating his staff members differently if they are female. I mean, people actually gave him CREDIT for this. To me, this is unbelievably sexist. This isn’t something to be commended. It’s abhorrent. Remember, he is not saying it would ‘look’ bad (which is reasonable). He is saying he thinks he would commit a sin - and therefore he is entitled to treat women differently than men. It’s one thing to admit you are an alcoholic and refuse to go to a bar. And it’s OK to refuse to allow alcohol in your home. But to say that its ok for a man to drink near you but not a woman? That’s sexist. Not to mention the guy admits he’s an alcoholic. I mean, what would you think if your spouse warned you that you must always tag along or they would have an affair if they were ever alone in a bar with the opposite sex?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...m-of-a-bigger-problem/?utm_term=.2949fbf428f5
 
Than you for demonstrating that when the left accuses conservative men of sexual indiscretions, it doesn’t actually care about the sexual indiscretions. The left will just as well attack conservative men for being chaste.
 
There is so much cleavage on TV. I don’t see so much in my actual environment, but I sense that all the makeup and the provocative clothing are plainly intended to tease men. Women want the attention. And, sometimes, benefits.

By cultural standards, women have a far greater range of clothing to wear, for example, in the business environment. they assert it as their right, to begin with. Men’s fashions change very slowly but they are equally designed to promote the strong, virile, male.

Modesty demands conservatism in dress by both women and men. In the work place, they are there for work. Christian standards and norms. We are to be holy people.
 
This is something I never understood. As a woman, if a man or men, ran around naked in front of me, no matter how good looking they may be, I would never ever think of “jumping” them, just because they were naked, and apparently offering an “open invitation”.

While if it were the other way around, the men would most likely jump the naked woman? Have I understood this correctly?

Why would this be so? I refuse to believe in the old wives tale where they say women have “more restraint” than men. Could this somehow be cultural? Or maybe training?

Note: I cannot imagine my father (or other family or friends) jumping a naked woman just because. He would probably take off his shirt to give it to her. Oh he would look, don’t get me wrong, but he would not “jump” her. So I am not sure where all the harassment is coming from or why.
 
Last edited:
A man’s dignity and self-control has nothing to do with what a woman wears. In other word, what a man will do, good or bad, will be weighed on him. If it is within the law to enforce criminality, then so be it.

Conversely what a woman wears can only reflect on herself and it is one hundred percent her choice how she wants her image to be.

We are sons and daughters of God and therefore should behave like one.
 
Last edited:
Arkansan said:
Than you for demonstrating that when the left accuses conservative men of sexual indiscretions, it doesn’t actually care about the sexual indiscretions. The left will just as well attack conservative men for being chaste.
Click to expand...
Are you addressing this to me? I am criticizing the position that a MAN is allowed to treat a woman differently because HE does not have the willpower to avoid sin. Why is it a woman’s fault for being attractive? Why do men get to act sexist but women don’t? It’s not about being chaste - it’s about being sexist.

If Pence refused to meet alone with either a man OR woman, I’d be fine with it. He allows one-on-one meetings with men, but a one-on-one meeting with a woman is just too darn tempting. So, you know, too bad, women get treated differently because of his weakness. The man is sexist.
 
LateCatholic said:
Side note - I was shocked when Vice President Pence said he never meets with a woman alone, as the temptation to commit adultery would be too great.
Click to expand...
Actually, this is smart as heck in today’s political environment because it would prevent any woman from saying Pence made a pass at her in private. I will bet you money that is the real reason he never “meets with a woman alone” and he uses the public excuse of his own temptation because it is socially unacceptable for him to say there is a risk of accusation from the woman, but socially fine to say he’s concerned about his own morals.

Many smart male bosses in today’s environment would avoid meeting with a woman “alone”. You can easily meet in a room that is not private, for example just leave the door open to where other people are working. Or if your workplace is cubes or open plan all over, as so many workplaces are nowadays, it’s hard to find a place to be “alone” unless you are there after hours, which if you get your work done during the day is unnecessary.

I am actually trying to remember the last time I met with a man in a professional workplace “alone” and the most recent I can come up with is at least 10 years ago on a business trip.
 
Last edited:
Why? You know how this is going to end…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
We all secretly know he does that to avoid false accusations.

If you want to make him sound more Christian like, he does this so women don’t have to be in an uncomfortable situation (where they have to be on their guard)…or as a way to show respect to his wife. David Schwimmer (Ross from Friends) once invited a chaperone when a female journalist had to interview him in a private room so that she would feel comfortable. He was praised for that.

Honestly don’t like the guy, but I think he’s smart for avoiding situations like this.
 
You bring up a good point. If an attractive woman is wearing a tight dress, people will be quick to point out that she’s immodest. But if it’s a unattractive woman with an unattractive body, it’s not immodest.

Also on a similar note, guidelines on modesty that strictly relies on male lust is a dumb idea. Because it’s so so subjective. If modesty is all about avoiding guys from sinning, would an ugly woman in a bikini be guilty of immodesty?

Edited to add: I’ve also seen guys comment that women’s office attire such as pencil skirts, are immodest. Of course they put up pictures of gorgeous women to prove their point. It’s not the skirt guys 😂
 
Last edited:
I remember asking a girlfriend why she was wearing make up, because I was young and it suddenly struck me as odd, she told me it was because she wanted to look nice. I told her that she looked nice without make up but that was ignored.

Obviously theres more to this than meets the eye if you’ll excuse the pun.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Actually, this is smart as heck in today’s political environment because it would prevent any woman from saying Pence made a pass at her in private. I will bet you money that is the real reason he never “meets with a woman alone” and he uses the public excuse of his own temptation because it is socially unacceptable for him to say there is a risk of accusation from the woman, but socially fine to say he’s concerned about his own morals.

Many smart male bosses in today’s environment would avoid meeting with a woman “alone”. You can easily meet in a room that is not private, for example just leave the door open to where other people are working. Or if your workplace is cubes or open plan all over, as so many workplaces are nowadays, it’s hard to find a place to be “alone” unless you are there after hours, which if you get your work done during the day is unnecessary.

I am actually trying to remember the last time I met with a man in a professional workplace “alone” and the most recent I can come up with is at least 10 years ago on a business trip.
Click to expand...
What you’re describing is illegal under the civil rights laws. Employers are not permitted to treat their employees differently based on their sex. Refusing to meet alone with employees is legal. Refusing to meet alone with female employees is not.

I understand the fear of false accusations (though I think the fear is way overblown). And I understand the impulse to avoid situations that could make false accusations easier. But the knock against Vice President Pence is not that he’s careful about having witnesses around when he meets one-on-one with people; it’s that he refuses to meet on-on-one with women only. This means that his male assistants and colleagues find it easier to do their jobs. More, the concept of “face time” (the interpersonal interaction, not the technology) is real — meaning that the men who get one-on-one time find it easier to get good assignments, evaluations, promotions, etc., while the women (who have to wait until a witness is available) don’t.
 
I know it seems confusing, lol, but guys are usually not helping at all when they say this.

Because she may perceive herself to look ‘nicer’ with it, and a compliment won’t just change her perception. Not to mention makeup can be seen as part of grooming. You may look nice with messy hair, but you would still comb it if you’re trying to look nice you know?

I don’t really know how else to articulate it, but yeah.
 
Godfollower said:
This means that his male assistants and colleagues find it easier to do their jobs.
Click to expand...
Not going to lie, this is an interesting point I didn’t really think of before. I wonder how prominent men should deal with the possibility. While I agree the average guy is probably freaking out about false allegations a little too much, it’s not irrational for a famous/powerful guy with enemies to feel afraid imo
 
So maybe if men are supposed to tame and control their base instincts arising from their physiology then females might do the same and resist the temptation to dress immodestly for …whatever reason!
 
Lea101 said:
Not going to lie, this is an interesting point I didn’t really think of before. I wonder how prominent men should deal with the possibility. While I agree the average guy is probably freaking out about false allegations a little too much, it’s not irrational for a famous/powerful guy with enemies to feel afraid imo
Click to expand...
They simply have treat all of their employees the same. Afraid of false accusations? Don’t meet any of your employees alone.

It’s the fact that he singles out one sex to be treated differently that’s the problem. So don’t treat the sexes differently; protect yourself against false accusations by either gender.
 
Is any woman seriously going to file a complaint that Mike Pence or some other boss wouldn’t “meet alone” with her?

What possible benefit could there be to being alone with your boss? I can’t think of one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top