Challenging Assumptions about Modesty

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Tis_Bearself said:
Just because a whole group of women think in a particular way doesn’t make it helpful or constructive.
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I’d say if a whole group of women think “we’re having trouble with this, and it’s really not clear to us”, then the fact that others do find it easy doesn’t mean a whole lot. We’re not saying that you should start worrying about it, we’re saying clearly a lot of women didn’t get the memo about where the line is in any sort of coherent way that we can easily make sense of.

It’s more like if you’re teaching a class - if half of your class in, say, high school math say they don’t get it, there’s a problem somewhere. The fact that some other students find the subject easy doesn’t mean the others should just stop worrying about it.
 
There’s no need to keep repeating to me that a lot of women have trouble with the concept.

I am suggesting an easy way for them to stop having trouble with the concept, which is make up their own minds and stick to it.

If women want to reject that and go 'but it’s too hard, we have trouble, we have to hash it out for 100 more posts or some other prolonged discussion" then fine, I’ll include myself out. If you want to just keep discussing how difficult it is then that’s not getting it resolved so you could move your brain on to other more important and interesting things.
 
At least for me, the point isn’t just to say “but this is hard” - it’s to give other people a reason to think about what they say, especially when talking to girls and younger women. It’s not like it’s just something that all we have to say is be modest and girls will just get it.

I’m perfectly comfortable in what I’m wearing right now, but I know it was quite a struggle for me to get there, and a large part of that was from modesty being presented as “the thing you do to get respect from men and keep them from sinning” when I wasn’t getting that respect at all.
 
Ladies, would it be helpful if I, a male, explained all this to you? There’s no need to get so hysterical.

(I keed, I keed…)
 
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Personally, I don’t have a problem dressing modestly. I figured out what was modest and still well fitting some time ago.

I have an issue with people treating me as if I am not dressed modestly simply because I am very curvy and there is only so much I can do.

So, in that sense, I think the benefit to raising the body shape issue is to (hopefully) prompt folks to think about how their perceptions of modesty are influenced by their biases regarding body shape and other things.

(I can think of an excellent example of this body type issue, but I fear that bringing her name up will completely derail this conversation because she is a very divisive figure. )
 
I am very large in the chest. I have learned what to wear to be modest and frankly it is not much of an issue at my age.
I have gotten rid of way too many blouses for what I will call poor button placement.
 
I’ve broken safety pins that way.

At this point I’ve pretty much given up on anything with buttons on it, unless it can be left open over a tank top. There’s just no way to get them to fit my shoulders and my bustline at the same time. Sizing up to fit my bust just ends in me looking like I’m buying my clothes all way too big.
 
You’ve got to make them yourself.

Just make alterations to an off the rack one that fits your widest measurement.Then add an extra button right over the bosom or stitch the button band closed and turn it into a pullover.

Sounds more difficult than it actually is.
 
LumineDiei said:
That’s not sexist, it’s called being smart.
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Geez - if you treat a woman in the same situation as a man, you are being sexist. That IS the definition.
Pence did NOT say he would never be alone with EITHER a man or a woman. He said ONLY women. The man is sexist.
 
You’re presenting a false dichotomy. If the real reason for his policy is he doesn’t want false allegations, then the alternative isn’t to avoid meeting with women alone; it’s to avoid meeting with anyone alone. Pretending that he has to discriminate against women to avoid false allegations isn’t fair.
 
But this thread isn’t about him; it’s about how people hold women to a different standard when defining modesty. Several posters have chosen to comment on Pence’s policy as an example of a double standard, which can have some value in this discussion (because it’s illegal for government employees to have different policies on how they treat men versus women); but he’s just an analogy. It’s entirely possible to think that men should have to grow up and control their own lust instead of blaming women for their own lack of self-control without disliking Pence at all.
 
Like I said, he’s a useful example. But people didn’t come to this thread to bash Pence; they came here with opinions about the double standard applied to women with respect to modesty. I’m just challenging the assumption that people are against the double standard for modesty only because they dislike Pence.
 
Not meant to offend, but I see a different pattern in all these modesty discussions- no matter if it is on Jewish or Christian blogs and boards. It’s so often like " our faith tells us to be modest, but we are judged because we will get looks when we dress covered because we are sooo curvy and our chest is soooo noticeable", followed by a vivid conversion on hour glass curvy figure.
To me, it always smells a bit like fishing for compliments, in a non- aware way. I don’t say anyone of you intend to do so, but it feels like that. It is like " true catholic women have curves" , in a subtle way.
 
I know on some level this turns into a debate about whether men are responsible for rape depending upon how a woman is dressed. To that question I would answer that men would be responsible for rape even if women walked around naked.

But let’s turn inward especially from a biblical point of view. Jesus said that even to look at a woman and lust is to commit adultery in your heart.

The way the woman is dressed in the OP helps straight men to refrain from lust. I would suggest that woman who are well of this phenomena and actively choose to not dress modestly share culpability for the sin of adultery men commit.

This isn’t to say however that men are off the hook. We can overcome this sin no matter how a woman is dressed through right worship. If we fail here we are not failing because of how a woman is dressed we fail because we decided to forsake our love of God.
 
alice24 said:
To me, it always smells a bit like fishing for compliments, in a non- aware way. I don’t say anyone of you intend to do so, but it feels like that. It is like " true catholic women have curves" , in a subtle way.
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🤨

Can you explain this farther? Exactly what kinds of compliments are we seeking when you can’t see us (and we are really asking to be left alone rather than be noticed)?
 
I find it a bit strange that everyone in this discussions often seem to have the need to say that it’s so hard because of curves.
Fishing for compliments seem to be the wrong proverb, but I mean more a matte way of complaining with the result of forming a female Christian Identity, in the way of " real Catholic women have curves".
 
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So then, you don’t see how, in a society that objectifies female bodies, women with significant curves might be subjected to additional and overt sexual attention?
 
My best friend and me are of completely different stature, and we both made creepy experiences with sexual harassment. It may be more for curvy women, but I personally didn’t experienced this. I only experienced the whole “real women have curves” thing as some kind of fight back against this harassments in a bad way, as it creates often only new thoughts of how real/good/bad/attractive women are.
 
alice24 said:
I only experienced the whole “real women have curves” thing as some kind of fight back against this harassments in a bad way, as it creates often only new thoughts of how real/good/bad/attractive women are.
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Might you consider that what you are expressing here is your personal preferences/dislike regarding the “real women have curves campaign”? None of us have referenced that campaign or a need to see women of all body types referenced in Catholic popular media (which is what the real women have curves movement was about: popular media).

What has been said here, at least by me, is that people need to be aware of the fact that our perceptions of modesty are influenced by biases we possess regarding certain types of figures. (For instance, a women with curves may be expected to wear more layers of clothing or may be expected to wear ill-fitting overly loose clothes in order to minimize her figure.)
 
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mrsdizzyd said:
(For instance, a women with curves may be expected to wear more layers of clothing or may be expected to wear ill-fitting overly loose clothes in order to minimize her figure.)
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Yeah. I don’t think modesty means hiding your God-given femininity.

IMO, these are modest without attempting to erase that one is in-fact a woman.

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These are an attempt to hide that one is a woman which gives the message that women’s bodies are “bad.”

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