Chance or divine plan?

[Robert_Sock]

God is all powerful, all knowing, all wise and all loving. All these attributes are absolute, with no room for chance. God knows the exact path of each and every snowflake! Nothing is beyond Him!

Some philosophers express doubt about either God’s power or God’s love. These philosophers cannot conceive how God can be simultaneously all loving and all powerful, yet allow human beings to suffer. Such is to render God as a ‘weakling,’ and not truly Divine.

Did G‑d create evil? Surely G‑d made everything. So although it is people who actually do evil, it was G‑d who must have created the idea of evil. But if G‑d is good, how could He create evil?

Answer:

Here’s the paradox: Goodness exists because G‑d desired it; evil exists because G‑d doesn’t want it.

If a human wants something, but doesn’t actually do anything about it, nothing happens. You may want a piece of cake, but a cake will not materialize unless someone bakes it.

But when you’re a Divine Being, your desires create reality. With G‑d, just wanting something makes it exist. After all, He is all-powerful; if He wants it, what can possibly stop it from being? He wanted a world, so it was. He wanted goodness, so it was.

Now the same applies to G‑d not wanting something: it too becomes reality. If G‑d decides He doesn’t want something, then that decision itself makes that thing exist. G‑d’s all-powerfulness means that even His not-wanting creates. Evil is what G‑d doesn’t want. So it exists.
chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/367866/jewish/Did-G-d-Create-Evil.htm

LOVE!

 

[oldcelt]

The choice between God and Chance is a false dilemma. Within the framework of Design there is an element of misfortune. A paradise on earth is an illusion:

Using another belief system’s dogma is not an answer for anyone but those who follow that system. God does not plan misfortune, therefore, it is chance.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Using another belief system’s dogma is not an answer for anyone but those who follow that system. God does not plan misfortune, therefore, it is chance.

God leaves nothing to chance. Even apparent misfortunes are acts of God. Chance is an illusion, and the last best explanation of Deists and Atheists, for if God can be dismissed Chance rules everywhere.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Using another belief system’s dogma is not an answer for anyone but those who follow that system. God does not plan misfortune, therefore, it is chance.

Are you denying that God is all powerful and knowing? God created the world and everything in it, but can’t prevent mishaps?

 

[oldcelt]

It is possible that He could, but doesn’t. As for the first part I believe that God initiated creation but did not directly create everything, including humans.

 

[oldcelt]

God leaves nothing to chance. Even apparent misfortunes are acts of God. Chance is an illusion, and the last best explanation of Deists and Atheists, for if God can be dismissed Chance rules everywhere.

I’m certain that you have exactly as much empirical data as me. We are disagreeing over observation and belief in the nature of God. Deists do not have God as a micro-manager of the universe. I actually think, naturally, that the Deist view of God shows Him to be more powerful for not involving Himself.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Deists do not have God as a micro-manager of the universe. I actually think, naturally, that the Deist view of God shows Him to be more powerful for not involving Himself.

Well then, we agree. God does not micro-manage our free will anyway.

Yet he can still be a back-seat driver.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m certain that you have exactly as much empirical data as me. We are disagreeing over observation and belief in the nature of God. Deists do not have God as a micro-manager of the universe. I actually think, naturally, that the Deist view of God shows Him to be more powerful for not involving Himself.

To be devoid of love is not a sign of power but weakness - unless you believe that might equals right…

 

[tonyrey]

Pure chance. No loving God would will such a burden on a child or a family. It is now up to us to determine why autism has jumped so in the past few decades and what to do. There is help, but no magic bullet, unfortunately.

Can you explain how all such burdens could be prevented without defeating the purpose of creating an orderly universe?

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Good Evening Everyone: The latter portion of this thread seems to be tied up with ideas about misfortune and hardship. I think this is the result of viewing the life of a child through the lens of a disability. The real story (I think) is of a child whose parents love him, and he loves them in return. All lives have misfortune and hardship, but the greatest outcome is the love of others, and this story is full of that. It has never been a matter of whether the glass is half empty or half full. It’s about getting the most out of whatever’s in it.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[oldcelt]

To be devoid of love is not a sign of power but weakness - unless you believe that might equals right…

I have no idea if the deity is in possession of what we as humans call love. In fact, I doubt that many would agree on the precise definition.

 

[oldcelt]

Can you explain how all such burdens could be prevented without defeating the purpose of creating an orderly universe?

I have no miracle cure for anything. I simply say that God has nothing to do with burdens, or blessings, etc., among the human race. You cannot be both a blessing and a curse at the same time.
I weep for the people who have lost children to terrible illness and are expecting an answer from God. In those cases I offer my support rather than pointing out the utter futility of their prayers.
The more I talk here, the more I realize that the Deist vision of God is actually far more loving.

 

[tonyrey]

Can you explain how all such burdens could be prevented without defeating the purpose of creating an orderly universe?

Yet you expect God to have a miracle cure for everything! Can you explain how that could be achieved without compelling us to believe He exists?

I simply say that God has nothing to do with burdens, or blessings, etc., among the human race. You cannot be both a blessing and a curse at the same time.

Can you explain how there could be a world consisting entirely of blessings?

I weep for the people who have lost children to terrible illness and are expecting an answer from God.

Do you expect every answer to be a miraculous cure?

In those cases I offer my support rather than pointing out the utter futility of their prayers.

How do you know prayers are** never **answered?

The more I talk here, the more I realize that the Deist vision of God is actually far more loving.

You are implying deists are loving whereas God is unloving. In other words you believe creatures are superior to their Creator. Can you explain how that is possible?

 

[tonyrey]

I have no idea if the deity is in possession of what we as humans call love. In fact, I doubt that many would agree on the precise definition.

Do you agree that indifference reveals a lack of love?

 

[tonyrey]

Good Evening Everyone: The latter portion of this thread seems to be tied up with ideas about misfortune and hardship. I think this is the result of viewing the life of a child through the lens of a disability. The real story (I think) is of a child whose parents love him, and he loves them in return. All lives have misfortune and hardship, but the greatest outcome is the love of others, and this story is full of that. It has never been a matter of whether the glass is half empty or half full. It’s about getting the most out of whatever’s in it.

The cynic expects to have everything for nothing…

 

[oldcelt]

Do you agree that indifference reveals a lack of love?

Actually Tony, I feel that the word love is way overused. But, to answer you question, indifference can indicate a lack of love, but a Deity permitting free will can be looked upon as a type of love.
Some Deists feel that God doesn’t even know that we are here. I’m not certain where I come down on that argument.

 

[tonyrey]

Actually Tony, I feel that the word love is way overused. But, to answer you question, indifference can indicate a lack of love, but a Deity permitting free will can be looked upon as a type of love.
Some Deists feel that God doesn’t even know that we are here. I’m not certain where I come down on that argument.

Your uncertainty doesn’t strengthen your view of God, John. You need to consider how it is possible whether we are superior to our Creator in any respect…

 

[oldcelt]

Your uncertainty doesn’t strengthen your view of God, John. You need to consider how it is possible whether we are superior to our Creator in any respect…

To me, uncertainty only indicates a continuing journey. I will readily admit that I do not understand the nature of God. I consider myself to be eliminating the unlikely and impossible.

John

 

[DanielJT]

Its important to get closer to the true definition of love here.

Loving someone for who they are and wanting them to never suffer is only ONE part of it.

Love is also wanting what is best for them, allowing suffering that will bring about greater and better change into the best version of that person.

We always question suffering as if it is inherently evil. Suffering is only evil when it is the end goal (suffering just for the sake of suffering). Suffering that produces beauty is perceived in a completely new light.

This is still only a PART of the true love that God shows us. Just because we do not see the end goal does not mean that it isn’t there, or that it is isn’t beautiful.

 

[tonyrey]

To me, uncertainty only indicates a continuing journey. I will readily admit that I do not understand the nature of God. I consider myself to be eliminating the unlikely and impossible.

John

How do you decide what is unlikely and impossible where God is concerned?