Change of Church update

[Tradycja]

I received a letter from the Ukrainian bishop that says that, having received the okay from my Latin bishop, he formally embraces me into his eparchy.

My question is the following: Don’t I have to sign something for this to take effect?

Eastern Canon Law says the following:

Canon 36—The transfer to another Church sui iuris takes effect at the moment a declaration is made before the local hierarch or the proper pastor of the same Church or a priest delegated by either of them and two witnesses, unless the rescript of the Apostolic See provides otherwise.

Canon 37—Every enrollment in a certain Church sui iuris or transfer to another Church sui iuris should be recorded in the baptismal register of the parish where the baptism was celebrated, even, as the case may be, in a Latin parish; if this cannot be done, it is to be kept by the proper pastor in another document in the archive of the parish of the Church sui iuris of enrollment.

 

[The_Idiot]

Congratulations !

I suspect your Eastern Catholic Priest will get in touch with you about the necessary paperwork - yes you should have something to sign and I think it also has to be witnessed.

But you are now canonically Eastern Catholic

 

[Windmill]

Beautiful liturgy, deep mystical theology. Congratulations!!!

Pray for those of us who are forced to suffer through “Latin”-rite Masses in the vernacular with Protestant hymns and congregational hugging that does anything but inspire. Oh that we would learn from our Eastern brethren.

 

[edward_george]

Beautiful liturgy, deep mystical theology. Congratulations!!!

Pray for those of us who are forced to suffer through “Latin”-rite Masses in the vernacular with Protestant hymns and congregational hugging that does anything but inspire. Oh that we would learn from our Eastern brethren.

This is absolutely not necessary on several levels. This is cause for joy, not taking jabs at liturgical abuses–they happen, yes. But there’s a more fruitful way to discuss them.

And congratulations to you, Tradycja. I have a good friend who transferred ritual Churches while we were in college and attended liturgy at his parish dozens of times. I have a great love for the Eastern Churches.

-ACEGC

 

[ConstantineTG]

Many years to you.

 

[Timothy_Garber]

Peace, health, and happiness for many years!

Why don’t you go ask either Bishop? If they needed you to sign something, they would know.

 

[Windmill]

This is absolutely not necessary on several levels. This is cause for joy, not taking jabs at liturgical abuses–they happen, yes. But there’s a more fruitful way to discuss them.

Sorry. You’re right. Many times I get discouraged by the lack of interest in making the Latin rite Masses beautiful. No one (outside of internet forums like this) even care, and so we are just sitting in a liturgical quagmire.

I’ve done much to try to help the local churches. I’ve started a men’s Gregorian chant group, I’ve been a sacristan, I’ve headed the altar servers, and I’ve joined Parish council. I pray regularly for a Latin Mass to come our way, but nothing really changes.

So when I see a soul migrating towards beauty, I guess I’m a little jealous.

I don’t want to sidetrack this thread, so I will just let it be.

Thanks, to whoever cares to listen.

 

[Timothy_Garber]

Sorry. You’re right. Many times I get discouraged by the lack of interest in making the Latin rite Masses beautiful. No one (outside of internet forums like this) even care, and so we are just sitting in a liturgical quagmire.

I’ve done much to try to help the local churches. I’ve started a men’s Gregorian chant group, I’ve been a sacristan, I’ve headed the altar servers, and I’ve joined Parish council. I pray regularly for a Latin Mass to come our way, but nothing really changes.

So when I see a soul migrating towards beauty, I guess I’m a little jealous.

I don’t want to sidetrack this thread, so I will just let it be.

Thanks, to whoever cares to listen.

I hear ya. My father and mother fell in love with the Byzantine Rite, so I have been in it all my life. But this is exactly what I observe at my local Latin Rite parish:
They seem to think “What is the least I can do in the Mass in order for it to still be valid? Let’s do that.”
While we seem to think “What is the most I can shove into the Liturgy and still have it be valid? Can we do more?”

No offense to the Roman Rite, of course. It is just every Roman Rite church around here is very liberal, and it reflects in the Mass. I have been to a Roman RIte church in Salt Lake City, and oh man, that was MUCH better. They had a communion rail (among other things) and treated the altar with more reverence than I saw at my Roman Rite churches nearby.

 

[edward_george]

Sorry. You’re right. Many times I get discouraged by the lack of interest in making the Latin rite Masses beautiful. No one (outside of internet forums like this) even care, and so we are just sitting in a liturgical quagmire.

I’ve done much to try to help the local churches. I’ve started a men’s Gregorian chant group, I’ve been a sacristan, I’ve headed the altar servers, and I’ve joined Parish council. I pray regularly for a Latin Mass to come our way, but nothing really changes.

So when I see a soul migrating towards beauty, I guess I’m a little jealous.

I don’t want to sidetrack this thread, so I will just let it be.

Thanks, to whoever cares to listen.

My apologies if I came off as overly harsh. I share your frustration sometimes at the problems that there are, but I am equally frustrated when anywhere and everywhere becomes the avenue for venting about the problems. So I apologize at directing that frustration toward you. Persevere in prayer, be patient, and hope for better days to be ahead–the seminaries seem very promising today.

-ACEGC

 

[Vico]

I received a letter from the Ukrainian bishop that says that, having received the okay from my Latin bishop, he formally embraces me into his eparchy.

My question is the following: Don’t I have to sign something for this to take effect?

Eastern Canon Law says the following:

Canon 36—The transfer to another Church sui iuris takes effect at the moment a declaration is made before the local hierarch or the proper pastor of the same Church or a priest delegated by either of them and two witnesses, unless the rescript of the Apostolic See provides otherwise.

Canon 37—Every enrollment in a certain Church sui iuris or transfer to another Church sui iuris should be recorded in the baptismal register of the parish where the baptism was celebrated, even, as the case may be, in a Latin parish; if this cannot be done, it is to be kept by the proper pastor in another document in the archive of the parish of the Church sui iuris of enrollment.

There have been many ritual-church changes in our Byzantine parish and they all sign a document and also two witnesses sign. This form is returned to the Eparchy, and a sealed copy is sent back to the faithful. Once the document is returned, it is final, but applies from the date of the signing. Then the Chancery will notify the Latin parish of baptism.

 

[5Loaves]

I received a letter from the Ukrainian bishop that says that, having received the okay from my Latin bishop, he formally embraces me into his eparchy.

My question is the following: Don’t I have to sign something for this to take effect?

Eastern Canon Law says the following:

Canon 36—The transfer to another Church sui iuris takes effect at the moment a declaration is made before the local hierarch or the proper pastor of the same Church or a priest delegated by either of them and two witnesses, unless the rescript of the Apostolic See provides otherwise.

Canon 37—Every enrollment in a certain Church sui iuris or transfer to another Church sui iuris should be recorded in the baptismal register of the parish where the baptism was celebrated, even, as the case may be, in a Latin parish; if this cannot be done, it is to be kept by the proper pastor in another document in the archive of the parish of the Church sui iuris of enrollment.

Congratulations!

We have only had two changes of Church in my parish in my years there. One was my own. The Metropolitan Tribunal of the receiving diocese (we few Russians are under Latin bishops so this was a Latin Archdiocese chancery) issued an “Attestation”

I, N, have petitioned X, Ordinary locum tenens of the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church in San Francisco (a quo), for permission to transfer from the Latin Catholic Church to the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church sui iuris. With the concsent of the most Reverend X Bishop of X (a quo), I now freely attest that I accept the transfer from the Latin Catholic Church to the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church sui iuris, on this date.

Dated and signed by myself, by the administrator of my Russian Catholic parish, and by two witnesses. This then had to be copied and returned to the Tribunal of the receiving diocese/Metropolia. My EC parish administrator then was responsible for notifying the Latin Catholic Church where I was confirmed for recording on my Confirmation document (Baptismal document for someone Baptized in the Catholic Church). I’m pretty sure the parish admin also had to Cc the Tribunal in his letter to my original Latin Diocese parish.

The other transfer in my parish occurred in the last six months or so. and was similar. In that case I was asked to sign as a witness, which I did happily.

As you can see from the wording of my own “Attestation” (“I now freely attest that I accept the transfer from the Latin Catholic Church to the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church sui iuris, on this date”) the change was only considered valid once I had signed and dated the statement. I would ask your parish priest and perhaps an Eastern Canon Lawyer. It seems odd that you have not received a formal notice and one which you would sign, with witnesses.

I’ve run into so much missing paper work in situations with the Latin Church that I had also contacted a friend, former teacher, in the Tribunal of the Latin Diocese where I reside and where I was received into the Church. He made sure that the change was correctly noted in my Confirmation record. I also reviewed the process with him, a canon lawyer of the Latin Church, (and he in turn contacted two EC canonists for the information) before I ever made my initial request so I would know what to expect. Not all parish priests are comfortable with admin work. It sounds like your EC priest was on top of getting your request to the UGCC Diocese.

Again, congratulations. If you don’t get something to sign in the next month I would inquire further.

 

[Vico]

This is an example of a transfer protocol:

_______________________, a member of the Latin Church sui iuris and subject of the _______________ has petitioned to be canonically enrolled in the Byzantine Metropolitan Church sui iuris of Pittsburgh, USA (Constantinopolitan Ruthenian Rite) in order to become a subject of the Eparchy of ___________. The petition is made on the ground of preservation of liturgical and spiritual life in particular circumstances.

---

  The consent of the lawful Hierarchs of the  Latin Church sui iuris and the Byzantine Metropolitan Church sui  iuris of Pittsburgh, USA, has been established.  Therefore, in accordance  with canon 32 ☼2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches the consent of  the Apostolic See is presumed and the request of the Petitioner to transfer his  canonical enrollment from the Latin Church sui iuris to the Byzantine  Metropolitan Church sui iuris of Pittsburgh, USA, and become a subject  of the Eparchy of ___________, with all effects of canon law is herewith  granted.  The Petitioner cannot validly return to his former Church sui  iuris without recourse to the law.


  The transfer of the Petitioner is effective  at the time the Petitioner publicly declares his change of enrollment from the  Latin Church sui iuris to the Byzantine Metropolitan Church sui  iuris of Pittsburgh, USA, thereby becoming a subject of the Eparchy of ________, by signing the acceptance of transfer form in the manner specified and  the signed document duly notarized by the Chancellor of the Eparchy of _________.

Given this__ day of ________ at the Chancery of the Eparchy of ______.

By Mandate of the Most Reverend Bishop

   X_____________________

Chancellor

 

[Tradycja]

The letter from my Eparch was a lot less formal then above. I have already emailed my priest about this issue but he has already told me that he is “not an expert on this matter”.

 

[5Loaves]

This is an example of a transfer protocol:

… The transfer of the Petitioner** is effective at the time the Petitioner publicly declares his change of enrollment **from the Latin Church sui iuris to the Byzantine Metropolitan Church sui iuris of Pittsburgh, USA, thereby becoming a subject of the Eparchy of ________, by signing the acceptance of transfer form in the manner specified and the signed document duly notarized by the Chancellor of the Eparchy of _________.

So like my transfer, this also requires a document signed by the petitioner for the transfer to come into effect, and in this case then notarized as the form of witness.

 

[rdorseyhsd]

To transfer from the latin church to our Italo Greek church (Ruthenean Bishop), an authorization is received from Rome in Latin. The transfer must be accepted in writing and must be accepted within a limited period of time or the transfer does not take effect.

 

[Tradycja]

Talked to my pastor last Sunday he said he hasn’t had a chance to talk to the Bishop or the Chancellor but that he will let me know if I have to sign anything and “documents are not important, people are important, don’t worry you are with us.”

My question is…am I still bound to the Latin rite obligations or can I just focus on the UGCC calendar?

 

[Vico]

Talked to my pastor last Sunday he said he hasn’t had a chance to talk to the Bishop or the Chancellor but that he will let me know if I have to sign anything and “documents are not important, people are important, don’t worry you are with us.”

My question is…am I still bound to the Latin rite obligations or can I just focus on the UGCC calendar?

The paperwork provides proof of enrollment and allows the Church to determine how to proceed in sacramental issues of the faithful, spouse, and children.

A rescript of the Latin canon law was made to grant the same capability to Latin Church faithful as in CCEO Canon 32. [AAS 26 Nov 1992]

CCEO Canon 32

1. No one can validly transfer to another Church sui iuris without the consent of the Apostolic See.
2. In the case of Christian faithful of an eparchy of a certain Church sui iuris who petition to transfer to another Church sui iuris which has its own eparchy in the same territory, this consent of the Apostolic See is presumed, provided that the eparchial bishops of both eparchies consent to the transfer in writing

CCEO Canon 36
The transfer to another Church sui iuris takes effect at the moment a declaration is made before the local hierarch or the proper pastor of the same Church or a priest delegated by either of them and two witnesses, unless the rescript of the Apostolic See provides otherwise.

CCEO Canon 37
Every enrollment in a certain Church sui iuris or transfer to another Church sui iuris should be recorded in the baptismal register of the parish where the baptism was celebrated, even, as the case may be, in a Latin parish; if this cannot be done, it is to be kept by the proper pastor in another document in the archive of the parish of the Church sui iuris of enrollment.

 

[5Loaves]

My question is…am I still bound to the Latin rite obligations or can I just focus on the UGCC calendar?

Your priest sees you as under the UGCC calendar and you have been living as a UGC if you’ve gotten to the point of a formal transfer so I don’t see why you would not follow the calendar of your UGCC parish. Unless you’ve changed you mind an don’t want to sign the formal attestation when it finally turns up.

Is your parish on the old calendar or some other major conflict you see with the Latin “obligations” and the UGCC at this point?

Talked to my pastor last Sunday he said he hasn’t had a chance to talk to the Bishop or the Chancellor but that he will let me know if I have to sign anything and "documents are not important, people are important, don’t worry you are with us."

The letter from my Eparch was a lot less formal then above. I have already emailed my priest about this issue but he has already told me that he is “not an expert on this matter”.

I would translate “not an expert on this matter” as he doesn’t know what needs to happen, and this is very common. It’s the chancery that orchestrates the paperwork.

We don’t seem to have anyone here on CAF who had made the transfer to the UGCC. I recall a member who wrote about asking his pastor about pursuing a transfer, and he reported that both the pastor and the bishop with whom he conversed pulled something similar to your “documents are not important, people are important, don’t worry you are with us.”

The paperwork provides proof of enrollment and allows the Church to determine how to proceed in sacramental issues of the faithful, spouse, and children.

Until you sign with witnesses and the parish seal and the UGCC chancery informs the Latin parish where you were Baptized (or confirmed if you came as a Christian into the Catholic Church by Confirmation) for proper notation in your baptismal record, the cycle of the change is not complete. A canonical change of Church sui uris such as this can only be done one time, so it’s not surprising there is a level of redundancy.

If after awhile longer you haven’t gotten paperwork to sign with witnesses and the parish seal on it I would contact the chancery. My experience with both chanceries involved in mine was they were easy to reach, very happy to talk with me and clarify any questions.

Both Vico and I are of the opinion you are canonically Latin until this paperwork is completed. It’s such easy paper work. It’s not like they are having to interview witness or something.

 

[rdorseyhsd]

If you are latin and attend a Byzantine Church, you can receive all the sacraments except holy orders and most of the holy days are compatible. There are consequences of not changing church. While attending a Byzantine Church as a parishioner, the latin is not truly a member of that Church. For example, attendance would not count as membership to prevent a Church from reducing to a Mission for lack of sufficient number of members. Some Churches require that to teach ECF or parish council membership, one has to be a formal member of that Church. Also, the latin parishioner would be bound by latin canon law, not Byzantine canon law. For example are holy day rules, fasting requirements, church of marriage, and so on.

 

[FrDeaconJoseph]

Having been through the process, I only know my own experience on this. I was not required to sign anything, presumably because I had already signed the request for transfer. You are definitely already a part of our church according to all applicable canons, so I wouldn’t worry about it. If you have a letter from your Eparchial Bishop stating that the transfer is effective, you actually already possess all the paperwork you need. Definitely follow the UGCC Calendar. Congratulations!! God grant you many years!

Father Deacon Joseph