Change of heart on socialized medicine

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google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Apolitics&btnG=Search

Politics: Social relations involving intrigue to gain authority or power;

Jesus was not into politics -God is not into politics. Satan is into poliltics.

"The devil then took Jesus to the top of a high mountain, showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. Then said, “**All this authority I will give You **and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.”

So why didnt jesus work with the devil? Why didnt he cut a deal? Surely he could have ended poverty, or a few wars by meeting satan “in the middle”… But Jesus is righteous, and does not get involved in politics. We should be more like Jesus.

So if all the kingdoms of the world have been delivered to Satan, then why not let Gods children divide this “authority” outside the dirty hands of the govornment. Say NO to big govornment… Say no to secularization. Say yes to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit…Amen.
What in the world doe’s this have to do with with is thread!!! Are you saying then, that I shouldn’t seek a law banning abortion? After all it WILL take plotics to do that!!! You also recall Jesus saying “you shall not tempt the Lord your God” also. well by not trying to correct a wrong and leaving it up to God that is what you are doing sir!
 
If you have enough to eat and a roof over your head, the rest is surplus.
So even the money that goes to pay health care bills is surplus. So no one needs money for health care. So why should the government be taking money for health care. This must be your position if anything more than food to eat and a roof is surplus.
 
So even the money that goes to pay health care bills is surplus. So no one needs money for health care. So why should the government be taking money for health care. This must be your position if anything more than food to eat and a roof is surplus.
I think he meant it figurtively more than literally. Sad state of intellegence in our nation when people don’t know how to read on context or between the lines, so so so sad.
 
He made a very explicit statement. He said anything more than enough food to eat and a roof over their head is surplus. If it’s figurative then we go back to arguing that we don’t know what is surplus for a specific person. And that argument is what he was trying to refute. If it’s figurative, then he has no idea how to make a point.

Oh, and no need to try to insult my intelligence because someone else made a ridiculous statement.
 
He made a very explicit statement. He said anything more than enough food to eat and a roof over their head is surplus. If it’s figurative then we go back to arguing that we don’t know what is surplus for a specific person. And that argument is what he was trying to refute. If it’s figurative, then he has no idea how to make a point.

Oh, and no need to try to insult my intelligence because someone else made a ridiculous statement.
It’s figure time because if he named every basic need it would on forever. A roof and a full belly is enough to get the point. A bathtub, heat, and lights in your home are assumed and need not beining mentioned. As for intellegence. I know a 10 yearold next door to me who can read between the lines with no trouble, it’s very sad when an adult can’t do that. The statement wasn’t as explicit as it was just out of frustration. I know what he is saying. I just lost my home to foreclosure partly due to my wife’s health problems, But hey don’t let that interupt you counting your money.
 
He made a very explicit statement. He said anything more than enough food to eat and a roof over their head is surplus.
It is. “Health care” isn’t a form of wealth. It isn’t something that you own. It is, as its name implies, care that humans give each other. Having savings that will allow you to pay a doctor to take care of you if you get sick *is, *strictly speaking, surplus. If I give my surplus to you when you are sick, and you give yours to me when I am sick, then we all get along fine. I don’t mean of course that society should function like that. There is nothing wrong with having a surplus. What is wrong is treating your surplus as if it belongs to you absolutely and as if having some of it taken to pay the people who take care of the sick is some kind of horrific wrong.

Edwin
 
157 posts so far and still no one has given me a compelling reason to say that the ends justify the means. when I opened the thread I didn’t believe they did but I was willing to be open minded and put it up for discussion.
Then you sentence people in my situation to death.

At least with the supposed ‘death panels’ this would be a controlled death, instead of living my entire, extremely shortened, life in debt and sickness that I can never even begin to comprehend on how to remove.
 
aspawlowski4th,

My money is not more important than preventing pathia from dying, but my rights to my money are. I have my rights, and those should not be taken away because some people do not have good health insurance. I do not agree with having my money taken away under threat of jail to provide for every person who doesn’t have good health insurance, whether or not it is their fault. I can not agreed with taking away every worker’s right to the money they earned (whether or not you agree with the fact they have earned it, they have because someone feels they are worth the money) to provide for these people. If I get my health care (and food for that matter) paid for by everyone else, why should I work?
Because, despite what you say, you will still have to pay for your food, your rent, and other living costs. Subsidizing health care doesn’t change that. If what you were implying were true everyone would be happy with a bog standard bare subsistence standard of living. But they 'aint.

But of course if some insurance subsidy is available via the state (an alternative republican policy by the way), then nobodies going to bother working:rolleyes:
 
Then you sentence people in my situation to death.

At least with the supposed ‘death panels’ this would be a controlled death, instead of living my entire, extremely shortened, life in debt and sickness that I can never even begin to comprehend on how to remove.
I don’t understand why anyone would want their health care to be put in the hands of government bureaucrats who have to refer to giant manuals on who gets what and when and when they take months and months to respond.

The proposed nationalized health care system would deny health care to ANYONE whose costs are slightly above average.

And, Pathia, that would include you.

But, you seem to prefer that EVERYONE have to go through a “controlled death” situation because your personal medical condition is extremely complex.

Right now, Pathia, you can use the emergency room and declare bankruptcy. But under the proposed system, you could not even do that.

And the proposed nationalized health care system would not allow anyone to evade bureaucrats. And anyone who has been around awhile knows that hell hath no fury like a bureaucrat who has been proven wrong.

Pathia, some conditions are not fixable, and that is a terrible thing. But that is not a justification for forcing everyone to have their conditions to be considered unfixable.
 
I don’t understand why anyone would want their health care to be put in the hands of government bureaucrats who have to refer to giant manuals on who gets what and when and when they take months and months to respond.

The proposed nationalized health care system would deny health care to ANYONE whose costs are slightly above average.

And, Pathia, that would include you.

But, you seem to prefer that EVERYONE have to go through a “controlled death” situation because your personal medical condition is extremely complex.

Right now, Pathia, you can use the emergency room and declare bankruptcy. But under the proposed system, you could not even do that.

And the proposed nationalized health care system would not allow anyone to evade bureaucrats. And anyone who has been around awhile knows that hell hath no fury like a bureaucrat who has been proven wrong.

Pathia, some conditions are not fixable, and that is a terrible thing. But that is not a justification for forcing everyone to have their conditions to be considered unfixable.
She happens to be near death becuase our health system is not taking care of herm she is homeless because it has drained her of money. So she is supposed to embraced the very thing that has made her homeless and days numbered? How illogical! Our current health care system is a failure, and something different needs to be given a try. It hasnt been totally hammered out what national healthcare will be. REmber there are blue Dog Democrats who arent thrilled with some parts of the package. By way the way Pathia’s condition is treatable, but for money no one can afford yet someone who is homeless… Since all you "conservatives can’t come uo with a solution to her problem your self, don’t deny her ,her solutons, dont expect her imagaination to comeup with the solution yours can’t comeup with.
 
I don’t understand why anyone would want their health care to be put in the hands of government bureaucrats who have to refer to giant manuals on who gets what and when and when they take months and months to respond.

Pathia, some conditions are not fixable, and that is a terrible thing. But that is not a justification for forcing everyone to have their conditions to be considered unfixable.
The proposed system eliminates pre-existing condition exclusions and also eliminates jacking up the price for them. I should actually be able to get insurance very soon.

My conditions are perfectly controllable by the by, I just can’t get them controlled because it’s too expensive.

As for putting my life int he hands of the government. You really think I would trust insurance companies more than them? The same people that have treated me like garbage? The same people that severed my mother’s coverage as she was in the last year of her life fighting cancer?

You REALLY expect me to trust those MONSTERS over the government? With the government they have the fear of being thrown out of office. The insurance companies have no morals, they don’t care about anyone, they care about MONEY and nothing more. They will do whatever they can to remove whoever they can, whenever they can, unless the government forces them to do otherwise. It’s almost impossible to even sue them when they do these crazy things, because in your health insurance contract you will find that you agreed to ‘3rd party arbitration’ which will be a company picked by the health insurance company itself, which SHOCKINGLY sides with the insurance company most of the time.
 
In my dealing with insurance companies there is only one moral , ethical insurance comany out there. It’s AFLAC. All the other are immoral, corrupt amd scum bags. As far as I am concerned they can all gou out of business and us the citizenry raid their coffers and get what we are owed. The Medical fields are fields where individual doctors, nurses and other medical personal are supposed to be able to make a living and yes a goodone. Not a profession where big corporations that have taken on a life of their own make profits, that serves no function whatsoever. Making a profit in medical related issues is making a profit at somes misofrtune, which is a sin. I trust Satan more than Id ever trust an insurance company.
 
The present system works for around 85% of the population, but some folks, rather than fixing the system so that it works better for the other 15%, would trash the entire system.

Yes, there are hard cases, such as Pathia’s.

[Although I’m thinking we are not getting the whole story. Pathia has been disowned, apparently. Pathia does get some health care via the emergency room/bankruptcy route.]

But to say that the present system must be thrown out and replaced by a system that we know from the get-go is poor, at best.

To quote some anonymous person at one of the town hall meetings:

Social Security is broke.

Medicare is broke.

Medicaid is broke.

The post office is broke.

Fannie Mae is broke.

Freddie Mac is broke.

Cash for Clunkers is broke.

The government controls everything and screws it up. Government is the REASON we are in so much trouble.

And now you want the government to take over health care; what do you take us for.

Let us run our own lives.

Get the government off our backs.

Let us have the private sector compete interstate without mandates and we can have better, cheaper, faster health care than any government bureaucracy can possibly provide.

If I want to use government bureaucratic health care, I can always visit my nearest Indian reservation. There are probably around 500 of them.

Now there’s an idea !!! We already have government health care. Those legislators in favor of nationalized health care should just order everyone to report to their nearest Indian reservation.’
 
I don’t understand why anyone would want their health care to be put in the hands of government bureaucrats who have to refer to giant manuals on who gets what and when and when they take months and months to respond.
As opposed to multiple tiers of corporate bureacrats who refer to giant manuals, on who gets what and who’s primary responsibility isn’t to get you well, but to pay less money to you? I hope that isn’t your stand.
The proposed nationalized health care system would deny health care to ANYONE whose costs are slightly above average.
Actually it explicitly forbids annual or lifetime coverage limits.
And, Pathia, that would include you.
You’re right, it does include her. Pathia will no longer be denied coverage for her condition and she can’t be knocked out of the policy because of its costs.
But, you seem to prefer that EVERYONE have to go through a “controlled death” situation because your personal medical condition is extremely complex.
Pathia is not the one arguing that its better for people to die, than for others to pay taxes.
Right now, Pathia, you can use the emergency room and declare bankruptcy. But under the proposed system, you could not even do that.
Under the proposed system Pathia wouldn’t have to.

And the proposed nationalized health care system would not allow anyone to evade bureaucrats. And anyone who has been around awhile knows that hell hath no fury like a bureaucrat who has been proven wrong.

The current system does not allow anyone to avoid bureaucrats, the proposed system the bureacrats become accountable. Terrible thought I know.
Pathia, some conditions are not fixable, and that is a terrible thing. But that is not a justification for forcing everyone to have their conditions to be considered unfixable.
Pathia’s condition is totally treatable. But the greed of her insurances keeps her from getting that treatment.
 
Making a profit in medical related issues is making a profit at somes misofrtune, which is a sin.
I think you need to clarify your position here. I really hope you’re not saying it is immoral to make money in the medical field. I don’t think you can possibly say that it is immoral to make a profit from someone’s misfortune. The auto repair industry makes money off of people’s misfortune in their car being broken. Is that immoral? What about the appliance repair men? If you can’t make a profit, no one is going to do it. Then you’ll be stuck.
 
Not a profession where big corporations that have taken on a life of their own make profits, that serves no function whatsoever. Making a profit in medical related issues is making a profit at somes misofrtune, which is a sin. I trust Satan more than Id ever trust an insurance company.
Please explain your understanding of what “a profit” is.

Thanks.
 
[Although I’m thinking we are not getting the whole story. Pathia has been disowned, apparently. Pathia does get some health care via the emergency room/bankruptcy route.]
My story has been told over and over again, just do a search with over my posts to find out.
Let us have the private sector compete interstate without mandates and we can have better, cheaper, faster health care than any government bureaucracy can possibly provide.
For you, not for me. No amount of free marketeering is going to change the fact that insurance companies either 1.) Refuse to cover me at all 2.) Charge me so much it becomes pointless to have the insurance in the first place 3.) Toss me around and challenge everything that ever happens to me as being related to my uncovered conditions without any medical science to back it up.
 
Its my mispelling of profet maybe. fainancial gain on some’s misfortune is a sin.
Interesting what your understanding is – that profit is a financial gain on someone else’s misfortune.

For the rest of the world, profit is nothing more than the difference between your total cost and your selling price. If your costs and expenses are higher than your revenues from selling, than you have a loss. If your expenses and costs are lower than your revenues then you have a profit.

If you continuously have losses, then you can’t pay your bills and you go out of business. Which is what happened to General Motors, for example. Companies that are badly managed and lose money go out of business all the time.

If you have profits you can bridge over the bad times and can afford to stay in business.

If your profits are too high, then other companies will be attracted to your kind of business and you will have competition.

It’s a delicate balance.
 
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