Change of heart on socialized medicine

[Arwen037]

I think some people around here need to be retaught the definition of earn, it goes far byond mere agreement.

Main Entry: 1earn
Pronunciation: \ˈərn
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English ernen, from Old English earnian; akin to Old High German arnōn to reap, Czech jeseň autumn
Date: before 12th century
1 a : to receive as return for effort and especially for work done or services rendered b : to bring in by way of return <bonds earning 10 percent interest>
2 a : to come to be duly worthy of or entitled or suited to <she earned a promotion> b : to make worthy of or obtain for <the suggestion earned him a promotion>

If you do the work you agree to do for a set pay, you earned that pay.
And if you are old enough to vote and to marry, you ought to be old enough & responsible enough to provide for yourself not demand that others provide for you.
And yes, health care is earned by paying the required fees. You pay the company, you’ve earned the right to have certain procedures done. It’s fairly simple.
And I don’t agree with expanding the deficits. But Obama is making it his hobby. He wants to take my money, give me nothing in return, and then make me pay the resulting deficit. You’ll be dead before we have to pay it back, but because I’m young it will be me paying it back.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Main Entry: 1earn
Pronunciation: \ˈərn
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English ernen, from Old English earnian; akin to Old High German arnōn to reap, Czech jeseň autumn
Date: before 12th century
1 a : to receive as return for effort and especially for work done or services rendered b : to bring in by way of return <bonds earning 10 percent interest>
2 a : to come to be duly worthy of or entitled or suited to <she earned a promotion> b : to make worthy of or obtain for <the suggestion earned him a promotion>

If you do the work you agree to do for a set pay, you earned that pay.
And if you are old enough to vote and to marry, you ought to be old enough & responsible enough to provide for yourself not demand that others provide for you.
And yes, health care is earned by paying the required fees. You pay the company, you’ve earned the right to have certain procedures done. It’s fairly simple.
And I don’t agree with expanding the deficits. But Obama is making it his hobby. He wants to take my money, give me nothing in return, and then make me pay the resulting deficit. You’ll be dead before we have to pay it back, but because I’m young it will be me paying it back.

Why is it ok for Bush to run up deficits but not Obama? Thats a double standard. Quite frankly I think they are both crooks. But its very disengenuous to complain now after 8 years of no complaining. I really don’t care about the defecit or debt, 98% of it going up or down is legerbook trickery. We had massive deficits when Reagan was presedent and we did just fine. On the subject of my wife! Her access to healthcare should have no connection to what able to or not to earn. She is disabled With 2 types of arthraits, degenerative back disease, and immunesystem problems up the waazoo. She couldn’t earn anything by your definition if anyone wanted her to.I’m quite frankly tired of this national debt talk Republican only complain about when Democrats are in control and Democrats only complain when rEpublicans are in control. Compalining about defecits therefore fall on deaf ears with me. Like Rush Limbaugh once said one day they will just rolling the printing presses to pay it off. With the fact that nothing tangable backs the dollar, they can do it when they want to.

 

[Arwen037]

Why is it ok for Bush to run up deficits but not Obama? Thats a double standard. Quite frankly I think they are both crooks. But its very disengenuous to complain now after 8 years of no complaining. I really don’t care about the defecit or debt, 98% of it going up or down is legerbook trickery. We had massive deficits when Reagan was presedent and we did just fine. On the subject of my wife! Her access to healthcare should have no connection to what able to or not to earn. She is disabled With 2 types of arthraits, degenerative back disease, and immunesystem problems up the waazoo. She couldn’t earn anything by your definition if anyone wanted her to.I’m quite frankly tired of this national debt talk Republican only complain about when Democrats are in control and Democrats only complain when rEpublicans are in control. Compalining about defecits therefore fall on deaf ears with me. Like Rush Limbaugh once said one day they will just rolling the printing presses to pay it off. With the fact that nothing tangable backs the dollar, they can do it when they want to.

Why shouldn’t she have to earn money to get health care when you expect everyone else to do hard labor to earn money? Nothing in life is free.
And how do you know I wasn’t complaining? Have you talked to me over the past 8 years? No, you’re just assuming because you want to make me look bad. And again, there is some different, which goes back to the same thing I said about taxes. Taxes (and the taxes to pay off the deficit, so by extension deficits) which are for the GENERAL good I am okay with to some extent. Taxes that only benefit certain groups and target others (by extension deficits created to help only certain groups) I don’t like. A lot of GW’s deficit came from military spending and the military protects the country as a whole, not just the poor or the rich. Obama’s deficits are mostly to help the poor by taking from the “rich” (the “rich” not actually being the rich, but anyone who isn’t poor).
And I think you’re wrong about us never having to pay it back. You might not have to, but I will.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Why shouldn’t she have to earn money to get health care when you expect everyone else to do hard labor to earn money? Nothing in life is free.
And how do you know I wasn’t complaining? Have you talked to me over the past 8 years? No, you’re just assuming because you want to make me look bad. And again, there is some different, which goes back to the same thing I said about taxes. Taxes (and the taxes to pay off the deficit, so by extension deficits) which are for the GENERAL good I am okay with to some extent. Taxes that only benefit certain groups and target others (by extension deficits created to help only certain groups) I don’t like. A lot of GW’s deficit came from military spending and the military protects the country as a whole, not just the poor or the rich. Obama’s deficits are mostly to help the poor by taking from the “rich” (the “rich” not actually being the rich, but anyone who isn’t poor).
And I think you’re wrong about us never having to pay it back. You might not have to, but I will.

Rermember the prescription drug program of medicare? GW did that, Not the Democrats. Conservatives are mad at him for it. My wife would be dead by the way if it wasnt for that. She is a brittle diebetic. By the way if healthcare goes through it will help everyone. Don’t talk to me about hard labor. Iv’e worked close to a dacade of 70 hour workweeks making me a stranger in my own home, and got nothing for it, except highblood pressure and sore joints. I dont feel sorry for what is about to happen to the business world at all. Self rule only works when there is self restraint. In business there has been no self restraint whatso ever. The military spending in another Vietnam in the making, A bottemless money pit. Im 41 right now so Ill be around when those defecits are supposed ly being paid off which is bs, there will be more leger book trickery and a new set of issues to deficet spend that there will be a whole new conflict over… There is no way to pay off all the public and private debt in existance, because it far out numbers the money supply. If no healthcare bill goes thorough there will be another economic collapse because Healthcare will take too much out of the econemy, through rising premiums and rising doctor bills.

 

[pathia]

Have you looked at why you were on the streets? Have you ever thought that it was the government’s action that led you to be on the streets?

The Government welfare state , which is condemned by the Vatican, leads to the decline of the family, which may have led to your homelessness. Government-imposed minimum wage standards increase unemployment levels among the young and unskilled - did that apply to your situation?

So you have a Government creating homelessness and then being there to take credit for helping the homeless. Pretty self-serving.

No, none of that applied to my situation. I was in college, I had a job and I had money, but no one would rent me an apartment. I’m transsexual/intersexed, it is not illegal to refuse to rent to transsexuals in the state I was living in. I could not go back to my family at that time, as they didn’t want me living under their roof.

 

[pathia]

The only way to address the first problem is to start holding more people personally accountable for their own medical costs and those of their dependents. The only way to address the second problem is to accept that absolute coverage of all possible medical conditions is a luxury and not an expectation. We have to accept that some will choose a quality of life over length of life.

So the solution is to not cover us at all, and let us expire naturally at the age of 35? That’s about my life expectancy without long term care of my endocrine system. That gives me a painful 6 years left.

Why shouldn’t she have to earn money to get health care when you expect everyone else to do hard labor to earn money? Nothing in life is free.

I am only 29. My medical bills passed the $600,000 or so mark this year, about 60k a year on average. Exactly how am I supposed to afford that kind of money? It’s more than I make in a year, more than most people make in a year. I work, but there’s no way I can ever work enough to pay that much money to stay alive, especially when working more than 30-40hours a week compounds my problems and hospitalizes me.

 

[aspawloski4th]

So the solution is to not cover us at all, and let us expire naturally at the age of 35? That’s about my life expectancy without long term care of my endocrine system. That gives me a painful 6 years left.

I am only 29. My medical bills passed the $600,000 or so mark this year, about 60k a year on average. Exactly how am I supposed to afford that kind of money? It’s more than I make in a year, more than most people make in a year. I work, but there’s no way I can ever work enough to pay that much money to stay alive, especially when working more than 30-40hours a week compounds my problems and hospitalizes me.

Arwen believe in this myth that working hard magically gets you a good living and lots of money. Well I know from first hand experience that idea gives hogwash a bad name.

 

[Arwen037]

Actually that’s not my belief. But if you don’t work, you deserve nothing. If you’re trying and you’re getting nowhere, that’s where charities should come in. But our current system of helping people encourages irresponsibility. I’ll use a well known example. Octomom. She is on food stamps, yet she has the money to afford in vitro. But yet, she quit her job and is going back to school? Without having paid off her first round of debt. Should she really be getting government aid?
And as far as the hard labor stuff goes, you’re starting to sound like a hypocrite. You say no one earns their money unless they’re doing hard labor. You say managers don’t deserve their money. Yes your wife deserves pay (in the form of health care) for being sick. A manager does a lot more work than it sounds like your wife does. And I point this out and you yell at me to not even talk about hard labor. But that’s all you talk about. You are the only one with any rights to their money apparently.
And before you jump on me, deserve is different from we should help. Deserve in intrinsic based on her. She doesn’t deserve anything for being sick. But as Christians we should help out, which is what charities are for. We should help is based on us. I can’t wait to see what actually happens to you if you get what you want.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Actually that’s not my belief. But if you don’t work, you deserve nothing. If you’re trying and you’re getting nowhere, that’s where charities should come in. But our current system of helping people encourages irresponsibility. I’ll use a well known example. Octomom. She is on food stamps, yet she has the money to afford in vitro. But yet, she quit her job and is going back to school? Without having paid off her first round of debt. Should she really be getting government aid?
And as far as the hard labor stuff goes, you’re starting to sound like a hypocrite. You say no one earns their money unless they’re doing hard labor. You say managers don’t deserve their money. Yes your wife deserves pay (in the form of health care) for being sick. A manager does a lot more work than it sounds like your wife does. And I point this out and you yell at me to not even talk about hard labor. But that’s all you talk about. You are the only one with any rights to their money apparently.
And before you jump on me, deserve is different from we should help. Deserve in intrinsic based on her. She doesn’t deserve anything for being sick. But as Christians we should help out, which is what charities are for. We should help is based on us. I can’t wait to see what actually happens to you if you get what you want.

Can’t wait to see if I get what I want! Hmm Weatherforcasting on the radio, and a job of keeping people abreast of severe weather thats next to none, while the compenesation for it gets me a decent vacation once a year no medical bill worries, and able to join and be a part of the Michigan antique radio club. Lest I forgeting Iv’e been concocting a way to make abort illegal in the USA once and for all, but if I’m working bucu hours at a job week after week, I won’t get a crack at my idea. I’d like to be able to donate something back to the specialed school that I spent my first 9years of schooling at too. Not very grandiose isn’t it!

 

[pathia]

But as Christians we should help out, which is what charities are for. We should help is based on us. I can’t wait to see what actually happens to you if you get what you want.

Then why has it been people not associated with religion that have helped me? I was rejected from every homeless shelter that was religiously based, I had to find as secular run one before I got any help. If it’s a christian thing to help, why was I rejected there and helped by the atheists? It doesn’t make sense.

 

[Arwen037]

I don’t know why you were rejected from the Christian shelters. From what I’ve heard you say, they probably weren’t acting out of Christian love and it was wrong. But since I don’t know which ones you went to or what their rules are I have no idea why.

And by what you want, I meant socialized health care. I’m betting it won’t be all you seem to think it will be.

And what about Octomom? She is a perfect example of why I’m against socialized health care. You ignored that.

And I realized you STILL haven’t addressed my point about the fact that I’m too young to comment, but plenty old enough to support your wife.

 

[pathia]

I don’t know why you were rejected from the Christian shelters. From what I’ve heard you say, they probably weren’t acting out of Christian love and it was wrong. But since I don’t know which ones you went to or what their rules are I have no idea why.

And by what you want, I meant socialized health care. I’m betting it won’t be all you seem to think it will be.

And what about Octomom? She is a perfect example of why I’m against socialized health care. You ignored that.

And I realized you STILL haven’t addressed my point about the fact that I’m too young to comment, but plenty old enough to support your wife.

You’re replying to two people here at once, without distinguishing, I don’t have a wife, so I’m assuming that’s for someone else. You also never brought up Octomom to me either, so again I guess you’re replying to other people at the same time.

You keep saying it won’t be what I think it will be, well what I have right now is NOTHING. Anything would be better than what I get right now, ANYTHING. What I can get, is to stumble into the ER when I’m dying. That is ‘emergency care’ which is entirely different than healthcare in general. It means I won’t die from any acute illnesses, but it does nothing for the multiple chronic conditions I have.

For octomom, the government shouldn’t pay for reproductive assistance, period. However, I’m not going to condemn myself to a lack of coverage of anything at all, just because the government covers some things I find objectionable. I guess that’s the coward’s way out, but to be honest, I just don’t want to die. I guess that’s selfish.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I don’t know why you were rejected from the Christian shelters. From what I’ve heard you say, they probably weren’t acting out of Christian love and it was wrong. But since I don’t know which ones you went to or what their rules are I have no idea why.

And by what you want, I meant socialized health care. I’m betting it won’t be all you seem to think it will be.

And what about Octomom? She is a perfect example of why I’m against socialized health care. You ignored that.

And I realized you STILL haven’t addressed my point about the fact that I’m too young to comment, but plenty old enough to support your wife.

Octomom while not getting fertility care, needs counseling pure and simple, but are you saying her children shouldn’t get care? Afterall they cant yet earn health care yet and its no fault of their own how they got into this world… What we have now is a falure and its time to try something different.

 

[Arwen037]

Pathia,
Well, with the government you run the chance that you’ll lose being able to stumble into the ER because you’re too high cost.

asp,
They didn’t cover her fertility care. But she herself is being given food stamps. Why should SHE get food stamps. I’m not even talking about her kids. She had a job, she quit. She had 100,000 for fertility treatments. The fact that people like her get to take government money is absolutely wrong and is a perfect example why the government can’t be trusted to handle this.
Finally, I think I deserve to know why I don’t have the right to comment on working because I’m too young, but I am not too young to have the money I earned going to support your wife. You should address this inconsistency.

 

[pathia]

Pathia,
Well, with the government you run the chance that you’ll lose being able to stumble into the ER because you’re too high cost.

asp,
They didn’t cover her fertility care. But she herself is being given food stamps. Why should SHE get food stamps. I’m not even talking about her kids. She had a job, she quit. She had 100,000 for fertility treatments. The fact that people like her get to take government money is absolutely wrong and is a perfect example why the government can’t be trusted to handle this.
Finally, I think I deserve to know why I don’t have the right to comment on working because I’m too young, but I am not too young to have the money I earned going to support your wife. You should address this inconsistency.

There are no cost limits, there are no ‘death panels’ Those are all misinformation. So I’m not sure where you got your information that I won’t be able to go to the ER.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Pathia,
Well, with the government you run the chance that you’ll lose being able to stumble into the ER because you’re too high cost.

asp,
They didn’t cover her fertility care. But she herself is being given food stamps. Why should SHE get food stamps. I’m not even talking about her kids. She had a job, she quit. She had 100,000 for fertility treatments. The fact that people like her get to take government money is absolutely wrong and is a perfect example why the government can’t be trusted to handle this.
Finally, I think I deserve to know why I don’t have the right to comment on working because I’m too young, but I am not too young to have the money I earned going to support your wife. You should address this inconsistency.

You lack wisdom and understanding of the real world. You focus on one aspect of healthcare, money. Which is at least spiritually immature if not totally immature. The same princle as being able to go to work ,but not be old enough to drink. I have lived through and seen much more than you have. At one time I was young and though that one moved up and got a better life through hard work. I eventually learned that is no more true than the moon is made of green cheese. If you want to comment on paying for my wife’s medical problems, get back to me in 20 years. She was a good worker for many years, but got shafted by Grand Rapid’s big retail outlet. She is in capable of working now. her medical expenses sometimes can get in the neighborhood of Pathia’s. Medicare takes care of some of it. Somebody who has never had a spouse wake them up in the middle of the night screeming in pain doesn’t know a hint of what I have to try and take care of. I am quite frankly sick and tired of those who don’t have a clue as to what they are talking about telling me how it is.

 

[Arwen037]

You still haven’t answered it, you’ve just played the pity card. The fact your wife used to be a good worker has no effect on whether or not I should have to support her. It might effect whether or not her company should be supporting her, but no me. If I’m old enough to work and support other people, I’m plenty old enough to have a say on working, due to the fact that I work. I don’t see how you can claim otherwise.
And who has said anything about what you have to deal with? No one has denied that your wife is sick or in pain or what you go through because of that. All we’ve said is that fact does not entitle you to other people’s money.
And money is the center of this health care problem. You don’t have it, so you want it taken from others. You think that it is immature to want to keep the money you work for? So you wouldn’t have any problem with theft then, correct?

 

[pathia]

And money is the center of this health care problem. You don’t have it, so you want it taken from others. You think that it is immature to want to keep the money you work for? So you wouldn’t have any problem with theft then, correct?

We work, and are penalized for it. If I were to become a complete leech, disability/medicaid would kick in, but because I CHOOSE to work, I get no coverage what so ever. What kind of insanity is that? Because I choose to work, and contribute something, I am denied all. When I could simply quit, file for disability and have it taken care of and never work another day in my life. I refuse to do that, and I am penalized for it by not getting anything at all.

 

[aspawloski4th]

You still haven’t answered it, you’ve just played the pity card. The fact your wife used to be a good worker has no effect on whether or not I should have to support her. It might effect whether or not her company should be supporting her, but no me. If I’m old enough to work and support other people, I’m plenty old enough to have a say on working, due to the fact that I work. I don’t see how you can claim otherwise.
And who has said anything about what you have to deal with? No one has denied that your wife is sick or in pain or what you go through because of that. All we’ve said is that fact does not entitle you to other people’s money.
And money is the center of this health care problem. You don’t have it, so you want it taken from others. You think that it is immature to want to keep the money you work for? So you wouldn’t have any problem with theft then, correct?

You always says its you pay for others use. Well me and wifey payed into the sytem for decades So I think we ought to get something that WE payed into, howabout that. You pay for all kinds of stuff you don’t like through taxes every day, try froreign aid to petty dictaters who will never do any good for America! But when an American is in need oh no… Your definition of theft is already going on… Funny how call it theft for Americans ,But silent on the issue when it going to places like Saudi Arabia. As far as a say in things 16 yearold workers gets taxes taken out of their check but they are to young to vote. I would much rather have my money thru the taxes I pay to keep a disabled person alive rather than thru an insurance premeium getting some stupid CEO another million dollar bonus for cheating people out of coverage based on preexisting conditions, money for the former purpose serves a function, the latter doesn’t.

 

[royal_archer]

I always here Americans make the arguement that “You’re public system is socialism” as an arguement against it.

Here’s my question: so what? Yeah, its socialism, and its working great. Viva the Canadian socialist health care system. Saying it’s socialism is not an arguement.

We are not talking about the Canadian system nor are we discouraging people from participating in that system. What we are discussing is should that system be forced on unwilling Americans in the United States.