Change of heart on socialized medicine

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royal_archer said:
What about the option of a low interest loan for the short term need and then pay it back overtime.
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That surgery I have since forgotten the exact cost, but I know was over 10 grand. If I was in a similer situation now. I think id just let things go. Im on unemployemnt and can hardly make ends meet as it is.
 
fultonfish said:
Here is a list of things that would satisfy me as stated by me and by others on numerous posts here at CAF:

The alternatives are [currently] forbidden by government: free competition across state lines [HSA and MSA types of insurance coverage & catastrophic policies]; elimination of mandates; full deductibility of all health care and medical insurance costs; rigorous audit and prosecution of Medicaid fraud; charitable contribution tax treatment for voluntary donations to funds for medical insurance for uninsurable people with chronic medical issues; tort reform. Tax credits / deductions for all medical expenses including allowing people to pay for the health costs of non-family members [like me paying my mother’s expenses][or Pathia’s]. And including medical malpractice insurance premiums.

The medical insurance issue really only affects 5% or so of the population, but that is a large number of people. However, those people could get coverage easily if the government would allow for innovative private sector, free market, voluntary charitable approaches.

The Catholic Church used to operate an extensive network of hospitals. There still are networks of charitable hosptial institutions, such as the Shriners. By favorable tax and regulatory treatment, they could be encouraged to expand.

As long as the government fixes prices through Medicare and HCFA who? What is HCFA??? Never heard of it!!! ], the medical profession and health care will suffer.
BHO has stated he is in favor of a single payer / government controlled system. He has repeatedly stated that even if it takes a few years, he wants the free market system gone.

The free market approach is directly opposed by the single payer / government controlled system.

But if he supported the free market approach, that would be excellent. And there are innovative ways to make the system work for everyone.
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It is interesting how some will be so reluctant to approve these non controversial and effective measures, but will immediately jump to taxing the people they don’t like. It almost seems like they aren’t as interested in addressing the medical funding issue as they are in punative taxes. It seams like they are exploiting the health care situation to achieve an end of more taxes against the less popular classes of our society.
 
aspawloski4th said:
That surgery I have since forgotten the exact cost, but I know was over 10 grand. If I was in a similer situation now. I think id just let things go. Im on unemployemnt and can hardly make ends meet as it is.
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A more productive line of questions would be why would such a surgery cost so much? If it weren’t for government regulation run amuck, many surgeries and other procedures would be much cheaper.
 
royal_archer said:
So it will take a while to pay back.
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Awhile? Try several lifetimes, should my debt pass on to relatives when I die? Keep in mind, as stated before, I’m not expected to make it past 40. Even with bankruptcy not being an option, society gets screwed, because I will die long before it was paid back under this hypothetical plan.

Lets say it’s $400,000 of medical debt, and a low interest rate of 4%. That is 16,000 in interest along per year.
 
pathia said:
Awhile? Try several lifetimes, should my debt pass on to relatives when I die? Keep in mind, as stated before, I’m not expected to make it past 40. Even with bankruptcy not being an option, society gets screwed, because I will die long before it was paid back under this hypothetical plan.

Lets say it’s $400,000 of medical debt, and a low interest rate of 4%. That is 16,000 in interest along per year.
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So you feel it is better to get the money completely for free with out any intent to pay it back?
 
This has been an interesting discussion. So Royal Archer, you believe that people who are un-insurable should all start charities to provide them with funds to stay alive. hmmm. I wonder how many charities would start up, then… and would there be enough donations to go around? What if the person is losing their ability to think rationally, should they hurry up before they lose the ability to run a charity… and what about after they lose that ability?

Instead many countries have excellent health insurance available to all of their citizens, and *every other western country in the world *spends less per capita on health care than the U.S. does now.

Yes, Germany for instance spends less and gets better care, and covers everyone. And it isn’t funded by taxes!

npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91971406
Pathia would be able to buy health insurance in Germany. Note that I said ‘buy’. Not ‘get free health care’. Why not have a system that allows her to? Like the rest of the civilized world? 🤷
 
royal_archer said:
It is interesting how some will be so reluctant to approve these non controversial and effective measures, but will immediately jump to taxing the people they don’t like. It almost seems like they aren’t as interested in addressing the medical funding issue as they are in punative taxes. It seams like they are exploiting the health care situation to achieve an end of more taxes against the less popular classes of our society.
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Sounds like an “envy factor”; less interested in creative structuring of improvements to current situation than in punishing someone else who has more stuff than they do.

Read about a Russian curse: “I hope your cow dies.”
 
Ella said:
This has been an interesting discussion. So Royal Archer, you believe that people who are un-insurable should all start charities to provide them with funds to stay alive. hmmm. I wonder how many charities would start up, then… and would there be enough donations to go around? What if the person is losing their ability to think rationally, should they hurry up before they lose the ability to run a charity… and what about after they lose that ability?

Instead many countries have excellent health insurance available to all of their citizens, and *every other western country in the world *spends less per capita on health care than the U.S. does now.

Yes, Germany for instance spends less and gets better care, and covers everyone. And it isn’t funded by taxes!

npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91971406
Pathia would be able to buy health insurance in Germany. Note that I said ‘buy’. Not ‘get free health care’. Why not have a system that allows her to? Like the rest of the civilized world? 🤷
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That the United States spends more on health care is a GOOD THING!

We value health care and can afford to spend more.

That’s not a bad thing!!

That people in other countries have a piece of paper that says " health INSURANCE" doesn’t mean that they have good health CARE.

In fact, there are numerous studies that show treatment is far better in the United States. Cancer survival rates are higher in the United States. Waiting lines for various procedures are much longer in other countries than in the United States.
 
royal_archer said:
A more productive line of questions would be why would such a surgery cost so much? If it weren’t for government regulation run amuck, many surgeries and other procedures would be much cheaper.
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Thats pie in the sky and not immediate concern. The surgery I had is a very time old procedure that predates WWII, but has risk of infection and can’t be done without anesthesia. It was very neccesary, not to mention reliieved alot of pain.
 
fultonfish said:
That the United States spends more on health care is a GOOD THING!

We value health care and can afford to spend more.

That’s not a bad thing!!
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It’s a bad thing when you consider that we spend more money, for less coverage, for less people.
fultonfish said:
That people in other countries have a piece of paper that says " health INSURANCE" doesn’t mean that they have good health CARE.
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But the thing is, fultonfish, the Germans have good health CARE too. 🤷
fultonfish said:
In fact, there are numerous studies that show treatment is far better in the United States. Cancer survival rates are higher in the United States. Waiting lines for various procedures are much longer in other countries than in the United States.
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Did you read the link I provided? Germany doesn’t have the stereotypical issues with wait times that many people here fear. Germany doesn’t have ‘government owned’ health care. German health care is not funded by taxes. RIGHT NOW they are doing more, with less money, than we in the U.S. are. Why can’t we do the same thing here, and do it even better?
 
You must have missed the start of the discussion. I was not talking about any current charity but the option of starting a new one. If such a charity is not completely effective is no matter some additional help is better than nothing. The topic revolves around the end justifying the means. What I am offering is an alternative better means to get closer to the ends.
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And you must’ve missed the part where I said suggesting someone start a charity to take care of their own medical needs is pretty sillly.
Socialized medicine does not save money, it only plays a shell game by moving money from less popular people to more popular people.
You can not justify socialized medicine by saying that it already exists. Current socialized medicine systems are broke and inherently discriminatory.
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Socialized medicine would cost no more than the money that is spent on emergency room care and drastic procedures that are the result of people not having the money to have regular doctors checkups.
Then why not take some of the money that is going to the elderly and impoverished who could be working, and give that money to the needy
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That has got to be one the most illogical, hypocritical, senseless, heartless, arrogant, ignorant, patronizing statements I have ever heard in my life. :eek:

You don’t consider someone who is seventy years old and living with health problems or a woman living below the poverty line while trying to raise a child to *needy? * Who *does *match you definition of needy praytell?

And by the way, impoverished does not equal unemployed, quite the contrary actually in many cases. Nor does it automatically equal unemployed but to lazy to get a job. I will not even speak to your suggestion to put the elderly back to work.

…in fact, I will not even speak to you period anymore on this thread. This ludicrous statement has proven that, in the words of a Massachusetts Senator, “trying to have a converstation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table.”
 
Ella said:
This has been an interesting discussion. So Royal Archer, you believe that people who are un-insurable should all start charities to provide them with funds to stay alive. hmmm. I wonder how many charities would start up, then… and would there be enough donations to go around? What if the person is losing their ability to think rationally, should they hurry up before they lose the ability to run a charity… and what about after they lose that ability?

Instead many countries have excellent health insurance available to all of their citizens, and *every other western country in the world *spends less per capita on health care than the U.S. does now.

Yes, Germany for instance spends less and gets better care, and covers everyone. And it isn’t funded by taxes!

npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91971406
Pathia would be able to buy health insurance in Germany. Note that I said ‘buy’. Not ‘get free health care’. Why not have a system that allows her to? Like the rest of the civilized world? 🤷
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Did I say that starting your own charity would solve everything??? No, I said it woule help. It is a creitical element along with reducing regulations that drive up costs, reducing the number of free loaders, and individual efforts.

While so many idolize foriegn welfare systems so few are willing to participate in them. 85% of the country like the current system. You have a small group that is trying to destroy that even though they have the option to move to a country with such a system.

If Germany’s system is so fair why doesn’t pathia buy a policy there?
 
aspawloski4th said:
Thats pie in the sky and not immediate concern. The surgery I had is a very time old procedure that predates WWII, but has risk of infection and can’t be done without anesthesia. It was very neccesary, not to mention reliieved alot of pain.
Click to expand...
As a comparison look up what it would cost to do the same procedure on a pet. I found that our dog’s surgeries were a fraction of the cost for the equivalent surgery on a human. The quality was the same but you can avoid a lot of the overboard precautions. Also when you go to the vet you are not paying for the bills of others unwilling to pay.A vet also knows that you may decide to not get a procdedure where as with a human they know you are going to pay regardless of the cost and therefore they can jack up the cost.
 
Ella said:
It’s a bad thing when you consider that we spend more money, for less coverage, for less people.

But the thing is, fultonfish, the Germans have good health CARE too. 🤷

Did you read the link I provided? Germany doesn’t have the stereotypical issues with wait times that many people here fear. Germany doesn’t have ‘government owned’ health care. German health care is not funded by taxes. RIGHT NOW they are doing more, with less money, than we in the U.S. are. Why can’t we do the same thing here, and do it even better?
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Obviously our system can be improved. (everything man made can be improved) but can we learn something from the german system other than how to play a shell game? After all many of the options proposed by the left do nothing to reduce cumulative cost or improve average quality, they only shuffle money around in a diabolical shell game. So as when I started this thread, I have an open mind:

Is the german system compulsory?
Does it pealize those who earn more?

How many of their hospitals were built with our tax dollars? Would there system be better than ours if it were not for the financial aid we gave them over the years.
 
pathia said:
Not Germany, Netherlands is where I’m going and yes, they will sell me a policy there.
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Godspeed Pathia, I hope you make it to the Netherlands and get the care you need- and as a fellow human being who is loved by God - deserve!!! 🙂
 
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