Change of heart on socialized medicine

[Ella]

I don’t know anyone in other countries. This is based on acquaintences who have made decisions to stop contributing because of the readily available governmnet hand out programs. This is also due to conversations with coworkers who are in the retirement gray zone (healthy enough to work but with access to resources to retire). Some co workers are only working to get medical bennefits but if the government were to provide them for free if they don’t work, they will quit working. This is also from acquaintences who made the decision to stop preparing for retirement knowing that if they have money they get less freebees from the government and are now deciding to just retire off the government welfare system.

How many acquaintances? It seems that you are basing your opinions on a very small sample of people. Why not study what is happening in other countries in regards to your concerns?
Do you think your acquaintances who are not preparing for retirement are making smart decisions? I have a friend on disability because he cannot work, and he lives pretty poorly - I can’t imagine wanting to live that way willingly.

I find your acquaintances strange - I have no acquaintances or co-workers like that.

 

[Ella]

In your example of water, if you do not pay your water bill your water gets cut off.

Yet there is potable water in water fountains everywhere. My water bill doesn’t just pay for my specific water usage - it helps maintain the cost of an entire infrastructure that provides clean water for the whole town.

I would also like to see everyone get health care and be healthy. The only disagreement is on how to do it.

Many - well, all of the other civilized western countries in the world have already done it. We are the only one that has not.

You aer showing a preconceived solution and using the need to provide proof to support that solution.

Please clarify - this sentence doesn’t make sense. What is my “preconceived solution”?

The falicy of the argument is that you have failed to show that that solutionis the betterr solution.

Hmmm. Other countries spend less on health care and yet cover all of their citizens. This is a fact. We in the U.S. spend the most, and have the least coverage.

your solution or your proposed means to get to the desired end has fatal flaws. It fails to address many problems that are at the root of the current situation we have today and in many ways will make things worse.

What problems are not being addressed, specifically? In what ways would things be made worse, specifically?

The better option would be to implement the easy fixes that have been proposed which do not involve shell games. Then provide more incentives for people to get off the welfare wagon and into the ranks of the contributing. At that point many of the problems you are attempting to bandaid will go away.

What “easy fixes” are you writing about, precisely?

 

[Ella]

Actually Nazi Germany was socialist. it was the big government taking from all and dishing it out as the rulers saw fit. This is much more in line with what youi are desiring with socialized medicine.

Ah, quite frankly, no. Here’s what the man himself, Hitler, said:

"“Nazism “has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism… Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not.” He stated “I absolutely insist on protecting private property… we must encourage private initiative”.”

reference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

What you have written is the equivalent of stating that Catholicism is Mormonism, because they both have ‘ism’ in their names.

 

[Ella]

Ooh, I found an even better analogy:

The National Socialists, aka Nazis, were “Socialists” in roughly the same way that the “Union of Soviet Socialist Republics” was run by Republicans.

 

[royal_archer]

I remember you saying something about her going to a foreign country is good thing. That sounds like you want her gone to me You know getting rid of the undesirables! As for Nazism being socialism it wasnt 100% pure socialism, it was more like fascism where there still privat means of production given direction by the governement. Telefunken, Mercedes Benz, as well as many other companies were not handed to the governent lock stock and barrel.

she wants to move and feels she will be happier there If she thinks that will maker happier then good for her. Jow did you make the jump to compare that to the genocide of the National Socialist Party of Germany?

 

[royal_archer]

Hmmm Then why was my grandmother forced against her will to retire at 70 from nursing? I would say in the case of the service manager who is still working well into his 70s, he has plenty earned retirement. The purpose of retirement was always more along the lines of whether one can do the job as well as someone younger. I’d much rather have my friend JD retired and being a full time grandparent, and a partime volunteer, rather still working a meaningless full time job as service manager, listening to yuppys snivel about thier car’s tire noise all week. He has more than earned his retirement sir.

There is a difference between retiring from a line of work and retiring totally. It is typical for people to retire from a physical line of work and then start a new career in a line of work that values wisdom over physical dexterity.

If he has earned his retirement then he has accumulated savings that he can live off of. If he has not accumulated those savings, he has not earned a retirement.

 

[royal_archer]

So retirement is a punishment for your grandmother, but a right of your friend? And I thought managers were just brownnosers who haven’t earned their pay?

Using his own words tsk tsk, not very sporting of you chap.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Socialized medicine will be like socialized welfare: ineptly administered with unbelievable corruption by both the government and the physicians. The system is already corrupt without the government option. Why increase the opportunities for corruption when what is needed is to root out the corruption that already exists (doctors collaborating with patients to present false claims to insurance companies)? Most of all, considering how inefficiently and costly the federal government is with respect to the crisis in New Orleans, the military, and the U.S. Post Office, why in God’s name would we trust our most precious possession, our own health, to the policies of a far-removed and impersonal Big Brother?

 

[royal_archer]

How many acquaintances? It seems that you are basing your opinions on a very small sample of people. Why not study what is happening in other countries in regards to your concerns?
Do you think your acquaintances who are not preparing for retirement are making smart decisions? I have a friend on disability because he cannot work, and he lives pretty poorly - I can’t imagine wanting to live that way willingly.

I find your acquaintances strange - I have no acquaintances or co-workers like that.

Although we we still have many idolizing those foriegn countries and many from those countries trying to come here but very few leaving this country to go oversees to get these supposedly idealistic programs.

 

[royal_archer]

Yet there is potable water in water fountains everywhere. My water bill doesn’t just pay for my specific water usage - it helps maintain the cost of an entire infrastructure that provides clean water for the whole town.

Those who want the service pay for the service.

Many - well, all of the other civilized western countries in the world have already done it. We are the only one that has not.

Then it should be easy for people to move to those countries. Why destroy the choice that is available to us, a choie that most are happy with?

Please clarify - this sentence doesn’t make sense. What is my “preconceived solution”?

Tax those you don’t like.

Hmmm. Other countries spend less on health care and yet cover all of their citizens. This is a fact. We in the U.S. spend the most, and have the least coverage.

Maybe that is why so many of their citizens come to the US for treatments not available in their home counties.

What problems are not being addressed, specifically? In what ways would things be made worse, specifically?

People who are capable of contributing but not contributing.

What “easy fixes” are you writing about, precisely?

Remove disincentives to work and getting more people working hence more insured. Enforce curent contracts, limmit liability costs, reduce extreme regulations that cause procedures to cost so much, allow access to more medicines with out a doctors prescription, etc.

 

[royal_archer]

Ah, quite frankly, no. Here’s what the man himself, Hitler, said:

"“Nazism “has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism… Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not.” He stated “I absolutely insist on protecting private property… we must encourage private initiative”.”

reference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

What you have written is the equivalent of stating that Catholicism is Mormonism, because they both have ‘ism’ in their names.

While there may be slight differences in the implementation, the common thread is that they are centraly run governments.

But it is interesting that you are comparing hitlers permission of the existence of private companies when our governement is taking over and nationalizing private companies.

 

[royal_archer]

Socialized medicine will be like socialized welfare: ineptly administered with unbelievable corruption by both the government and the physicians. The system is already corrupt without the government option. Why increase the opportunities for corruption when what is needed is to root out the corruption that already exists (doctors collaborating with patients to present false claims to insurance companies)? Most of all, considering how inefficiently and costly the federal government is with respect to the crisis in New Orleans, the military, and the U.S. Post Office, why in God’s name would we trust our most precious possession, our own health, to the policies of a far-removed and impersonal Big Brother?

Because there are millions out there who do not understand or care about freedom, they just want to expolit those who have earned their way.

 

[Ella]

Socialized medicine will be like socialized welfare: ineptly administered with unbelievable corruption by both the government and the physicians. The system is already corrupt without the government option. Why increase the opportunities for corruption when what is needed is to root out the corruption that already exists (doctors collaborating with patients to present false claims to insurance companies)? Most of all, considering how inefficiently and costly the federal government is with respect to the crisis in New Orleans, the military, and the U.S. Post Office, why in God’s name would we trust our most precious possession, our own health, to the policies of a far-removed and impersonal Big Brother?

But- other countries, like France and Switzerland for instance, DO have a form of socialized medicine and do quite well. Their health care systems are not ‘ineptly administered with unbelievable corruption’. Why can’t we do the same, or better?

 

[Ella]

Those who want the service pay for the service.

Actually, all benefit from those who pay for keeping clean water systems working in their communities, whether they pay for the service or not. But - remember- there are folks like pathia who do want to pay for the ‘service’ of health insurance but are not allowed to buy it.

Then it should be easy for people to move to those countries. Why destroy the choice that is available to us, a choie that most are happy with?

It’s their country too, not just the country of those wealthy enough, and healthy enough, to be permitted to buy coverage.

Tax those you don’t like.

Who is it that you think I don’t like?

Maybe that is why so many of their citizens come to the US for treatments not available in their home counties.

Who? I would like to read some examples. What treatment is not available in France or Germany or Switzerland or Australia or Italy?

People who are capable of contributing but not contributing.

The system we have now has me and you paying for the people who are capable of contributing, but not contributing, via the Emergency Rooms. I’d rather save my money and stop this - most expensive way - to treat these people.

Remove disincentives to work and getting more people working hence more insured.

Lots of layoffs right now - who’s hiring? Economy is down.

Enforce curent contracts,

What contracts are not being enforced?

limmit liability costs,

do you mean liabilty for the doctors? Interestingly malpractice costs are not what is driving up health care costs in a significant way.

“The results of a study by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services show that medical malpractice cases make up only 2% of the country’s health care spending, and “defensive medicine” only accounts for 5-9%. These numbers hardly reflect a significant source of spending in our health care system.”

bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=az9qxQZNmf0o

reduce extreme regulations that cause procedures to cost so much,

What regulations cause procedures to cost so much? I’m not sure what you mean here.

allow access to more medicines with out a doctors prescription, etc.

Medicines like what?

 

[aspawloski4th]

So retirement is a punishment for your grandmother, but a right of your friend? And I thought managers were just brownnosers who haven’t earned their pay?

My grandmother was healthy at that time, and that manager is a low level manager who go to be a manager in the days that not as much brown nosing was going on. Also that manager is not healthyby any stretch of any imagination. Now I bet you’d still want my grandmother working at 87 years old despite osteoperosis and altzheimers.

 

[aspawloski4th]

There is a difference between retiring from a line of work and retiring totally. It is typical for people to retire from a physical line of work and then start a new career in a line of work that values wisdom over physical dexterity.

If he has earned his retirement then he has accumulated savings that he can live off of. If he has not accumulated those savings, he has not earned a retirement.

You missed something very important, I said he keeps working for the medical insurance. Not The income. His health concerns would depleat anyone except a mulitmillionaires savings. If he were healthy he would actually be retired.- You say people like me don’t understand the meaning of freedom, if my friend is livng in freedom with that damned if you do damned if you dont situation, that not freedom

 

[royal_archer]

But- other countries, like France and Switzerland for instance, DO have a form of socialized medicine and do quite well. Their health care systems are not ‘ineptly administered with unbelievable corruption’. Why can’t we do the same, or better?

That is sort of like asking why can’t coke be more like pepsi. They apeal to different individuals. America is full of people and the decendents of people who fled those countries in order to seek freedom and opportunity even if it meant giving up the comforts and safety of their homelands. Every one here in America is here because we want to be and we all feel that the advantages of living in this country outweigh the bennefits of moving elsewhere. Why do you insist on forcing all countries to fit the same cookie cutter approach and destroy our variety of options?

 

[royal_archer]

Actually, all benefit from those who pay for keeping clean water systems working in their communities, whether they pay for the service or not. But - remember- there are folks like pathia who do want to pay for the ‘service’ of health insurance but are not allowed to buy it.

Now not being permitted to buy health insurance is a different story. All this time I thought the price was to high for her but you are saying they are all conspiring to keep her from buying it at any price?

It’s their country too, not just the country of those wealthy enough, and healthy enough, to be permitted to buy coverage.

The government is not here to force anyone to live in a way that bennefits others. It is here to protect the rights of individuals. This country is not taking anything away from those who do not have money.

Who is it that you think I don’t like?

Since you insist on penalizing those who earn their keep I presume you don’t like them.

Who?    I would like to read some examples.    What treatment is not available in France or Germany or Switzerland or Australia or Italy?

stand by.

The system we have now has me and you paying for the people who are capable of contributing, but not contributing, via the Emergency Rooms. I’d rather save my money and stop this - most expensive way - to treat these people.

OK, stop treating them then. That was a bit more brutal than I would have been but so be it.

Lots of layoffs right now - who’s hiring? Economy is down.

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What contracts are not being enforced?

We keeep hereing of people loosing their coverage when they get sick. well, that is a breach of contract.

do you mean liabilty for the doctors? Interestingly malpractice costs are not what is driving up health care costs in a significant way.

“The results of a study by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services show that medical malpractice cases make up only 2% of the country’s health care spending, and “defensive medicine” only accounts for 5-9%. These numbers hardly reflect a significant source of spending in our health care system.”

bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=az9qxQZNmf0o

15% are with out insurance and that addressess about 9% of the cost seems like that will get us half way there.
Simple solution big chunck of the fix. With that in mond and seeing how so many are against that part of a solution it makes me question the motives of those who want to jump right to the descrimanatory tax option.

What regulations cause procedures to cost so much? I’m not sure what you mean here.

Lets see, it cost $200 to have a tumor surgically removed from ny dog but it would cost about $20000 to have the same procedure for a human. the difference is that there are much fewer regulations for vets than their are for human doctors.

Medicines like what?

Oxygen, insulin.

 

[royal_archer]

You missed something very important, I said he keeps working for the medical insurance. Not The income. His health concerns would depleat anyone except a mulitmillionaires savings. If he were healthy he would actually be retired.- You say people like me don’t understand the meaning of freedom, if my friend is livng in freedom with that damned if you do damned if you dont situation, that not freedom

Hasn’t he saved up enough for the insurance premiums?

It sounds like he has been reeping the rewards of freedom for 70 years but now that his situation has changed you want the rules changed for him. So because he did not prepare for his retirement you want to take money from people like me and Arwen who do want to prepare for our retirement? Instead of passing down debt to the next generation, we should be passing down a nest egg.

 

[royal_archer]

well… off to work, someone has to pay the bills.