Changeless God cannot create

[Bahman]

1. God does not change
2. Creation was a part of God’s thought
3. From (1) and (2) we can deduce that creation has to be eternal
4. Creation has a beginning though hence it require change in God
5. (3) and (4) contradict each other hence (1) is wrong

 

[Traveller83]

I would say; God doesn’t change that’s correct. However, that doesn’t mean he can’t change something else. What do others think?

 

[dmar198]

1. God does not change
2. Creation was a part of God’s thought
3. From (1) and (2) we can deduce that creation has to be eternal
4. Creation has a beginning though hence it require change in God
5. (3) and (4) contradict each other hence (1) is wrong

If God can think about time, then it seems to follow that time can be a part of God’s thought. If He can think about a finite amount of time, then it seems to follow that He could think about creation, from eternity, as having a finite amount of time in it. Because of this, I think it follows that creation can have a beginning of time, without anything changing in God. Does that make sense?

 

[Used2beSherryG]

1. God does not change
2. Creation was a part of God’s thought
3. From (1) and (2) we can deduce that creation has to be eternal
4. Creation has a beginning though hence it require change in God
5. (3) and (4) contradict each other hence (1) is wrong

Faulty logic here. You are equating apples and potatoes. God, our creator, is all powerful. Begin again.

 

[on_the_hill]

1. God does not change

why not?
2) Creation was a part of God’s thought
3) From (1) and (2) we can deduce that creation has to be eternal
I don’t see how

 

[edward_george]

God does not change, because to change would imply that he is not perfect. That he is perfect means that he is the good itself. Goodness is diffusive of itself, that is, it wishes to impart goodness to other beings. To be is better than not to be; being and goodness are one and the same. Therefore, since God is goodness itself, and since goodness wishes to impart its goodness to other beings, the eternal, unchanging will of God would be to create other beings to share in his goodness, which would necessarily be limited in time and extension, since an effect cannot exceed its cause.

-ACEGC

 

[Loving_disciple]

Good arguement but you commitd the epizocation falsify. The creation is never equal to the creator.

 

[revert_jen]

1. God does not change
2. Creation was a part of God’s thought
3. From (1) and (2) we can deduce that creation has to be eternal
4. Creation has a beginning though hence it require change in God
5. (3) and (4) contradict each other hence (1) is wrong

I would like to see where #2 came from. You seem to mean, not that God thought up creation, but that creation exists actually in God’s mind and therefore is a part of God. Sort of like God created creation as part of Himself.

Time requires change (and vice versa). God is outside time, although He created both time and everything subject to it. I cannot deduce your #3 from your #1 and #2, I think because I don’t agree with the way you are using #2. Therefore, #4 doesn’t follow from the others, either.

A little more information about where you get your premises (#1 and #2) and what you mean by them would be helpful, because with invalid premises, correct conclusions can only be drawn by accident.

–Jen

 

[balto]

1. Creation has a beginning though hence it require change in God

This is where you made your mistake. Why does the fact that creation has a beginning in time require that God change?

I think you are probably confusing eternality with sempiternality here. God is eternal; He is outside of time altogether and does not change. He is not sempiternal; He is not “along for the ride” so-to-speak on an infinite timeline that just happens to coincide with the finite timeline of creation. God is eternally causing the universe to be real at every point in time. That does not require a change in God since He is always doing that and has always been doing that. The universe has been eternally present to Him. But that does not mean that the universe must have an infinite past. All it requires is that God is always present to every point on the timeline. There was never a time at which God was not sustaining the universe in existence whether or not the universe is past-finite. His effects unfold in time but His eternal creative act does not unfold in time.

Here’s an analogy that another CAF poster used in the past: imagine a light source situated above a string. In between the string is a filter that separates the light into all the colors of the visible spectrum. So the one end of the string is red and progresses all the way to violet on the opposite end. There is certainly a change in color as you progress down the string, but there is no change in the light source, nor will there ever be a change in the light source, and the change in colors along the string is only made manifest due to the continual action of the light source. That is analogous to what God is doing as it concerns His eternal creative act and the universe’s mutability (and I don’t claim it as a perfect analogy, only as something to get you thinking about it the right way).

I’m also not sure how you interpret your second premise. Creation is not a part of God’s intellect. God is one simple intellective act. Creation is again an effect of God’s intellection and not a property of it.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

1. God does not change
2. Creation was a part of God’s thought
3. From (1) and (2) we can deduce that creation has to be eternal
4. Creation has a beginning though hence it require change in God
5. (3) and (4) contradict each other hence (1) is wrong

The error here is the assumption that you think that God can be placed in the box of human reasoning. He can’t. He told us himself that he does not change, yet he also tells us that he created us and the whole order of creatures and spirits in time, out of nothing.
Therefore God’s creation and governance do not mean that God changes.

That God is simple and changeless is both a philosophical conclusion and an element of Divine Revelation.

That God created the universe out of nothing, in time is an element of Divine Revelation only.

You have mixed data from Philosophy and Revelation together to reach a philosophical conclusion. That is inadmissable. You must argue strictly from philosophy or from Divine Revelation. The basis of the former is human reason, the basis for the later is Divine Revelation. Your conclusion is based on human reason. Apples and oranges.

You have been doing this for a year. That is why your arguments fail.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

I would say; God doesn’t change that’s correct. However, that doesn’t mean he can’t change something else. What do others think?

Could you please tell us how a changeless thing with a changeable thing could be hold on each other in balance?

 

[Bahman]

If God can think about time, then it seems to follow that time can be a part of God’s thought. If He can think about a finite amount of time, then it seems to follow that He could think about creation, from eternity, as having a finite amount of time in it. Because of this, I think it follows that creation can have a beginning of time, without anything changing in God. Does that make sense?

That makes sense but it implies that the fate of creation is destruction at the end!

 

[Bahman]

Faulty logic here. You are equating apples and potatoes. God, our creator, is all powerful. Begin again.

Could you please tell us which part is faulty logic? Creation is either finite in time and space or infinite. The fate of creation is destruction if the creation is finite in time which is not acceptable since it is a fail. It is a fail because it is purposeless. This is against Christian teaching as well. Hence I am comparing apple with apple if creation is infinite in space or time.

 

[Bahman]

1. God does not change

why not?

God is either perfect or not. A perfect being is changeless. So it is matter of accepting the fact that God is perfect or not.

1. Creation was a part of God’s thought
2. From (1) and (2) we can deduce that creation has to be eternal
   I don’t see how

God is not subjected to time and change. Creation does exist hence it was a must. One can then conclude that the existence of God and creation are mutually inclusive. In another word, you cannot have God without creation. Hence if creation has to be eternal if God is eternal.

 

[Bahman]

God does not change, because to change would imply that he is not perfect. That he is perfect means that he is the good itself. Goodness is diffusive of itself, that is, it wishes to impart goodness to other beings. To be is better than not to be; being and goodness are one and the same. Therefore, since God is goodness itself, and since goodness wishes to impart its goodness to other beings, the eternal, unchanging will of God would be to create other beings to share in his goodness, which would necessarily be limited in time and extension, since an effect cannot exceed its cause.

-ACEGC

So you are accepting the fact that the fate of creation is destruction at the end!? This has to be correct since a creation which is infinite in time is not possible.

 

[Bahman]

Good arguement but you commitd the epizocation falsify. The creation is never equal to the creator.

So, you are accepting that the creation is finite in time and space!? I can argue the opposite:

1. God is perfect
2. God’s creation hence must be perfect
3. An ephemeral creation is imperfect since its final fate is destruction hence purposeless
4. From (3) we can deduce that a lesser creation is not possible since it is against God’s perfection
5. Creation however subject to change
6. This means that God’s perfection is relative and subject to change

In simple word, a changeless God cannot create a purposeful universe.

 

[Andre1000]

Just one observed example we know: The uncertain principle from quantum mechanics is a unchanging(at least for now) principle, yet it creates temporary mass all the time. God himself is an unchanging living principle that created the universe. Look for energy time uncertainty

So you are accepting the fact that the fate of creation is destruction at the end!? This has to be correct since a creation which is infinite in time is not possible.

Creation is not infinite, but God keeps it for ever alive. For example by delaying the end like forever.

 

[edward_george]

So you are accepting the fact that the fate of creation is destruction at the end!? This has to be correct since a creation which is infinite in time is not possible.

I never said anything of the sort, and I think you know that. When I say “infinite” and “finite,” of course, I don’t mean that in a way confined to mere temporal extension, but rather that to be finite is to be limited, and to be infinite is to be unlimited. If something had a finite beginning, but has continual extension beyond that, then it is still limited, since there was a time when it did not have being. So far from accepting the destruction of creation, I have simply pointed out that God is limitless, and his creation is limited, since an effect cannot exceed its cause. This does not necessarily mean all that is created will be destroyed, just that it is not limitless, since it had a beginning and was contingent on a being without beginning or end.

Think of it in mathematical terms. If God is like a line (this of course being an analogy, and thus limited, since God is not a mere set of points that continues without limit in both directions), then creation is like a line segment–it is begun, and thus continues on without limit from the point where it began, sustained in being by God.

-ACEGC

 

[Bahman]

I would like to see where #2 came from. You seem to mean, not that God thought up creation, but that creation exists actually in God’s mind and therefore is a part of God. Sort of like God created creation as part of Himself.

What I meant is the concept of creation as whole within must be known to God.

Time requires change (and vice versa). God is outside time, although He created both time and everything subject to it. I cannot deduce your #3 from your #1 and #2, I think because I don’t agree with the way you are using #2. Therefore, #4 doesn’t follow from the others, either.

I can argue that (3) can be deduced from (1) and (2) as following.

1. God is changeless and eternal
2. Assume that creation has a beginning
3. This requires a change in existence since we are dealing with a situation that something does not exist then it does
4. This requires a change in God which is contrary to (1)
5. Hence (2) is wrong

A little more information about where you get your premises (#1 and #2) and what you mean by them would be helpful, because with invalid premises, correct conclusions can only be drawn by accident.

–Jen

God is either perfect or not. God cannot change if it is perfect. That is how you can deduce (1).

Universe does exist and it is not God. Hence, the thought of creation must exist in God’s mind if we accept that universe is not eternal and created by an external agent called God. That is how you can deduce (2).

 

[JButky]

God is not subject to existence, God is being (pure actuality, no potentiality) No begining, no end and therefore has the power to bring forth things into or out of existence.

This requires no change in God by strict definition.

That something comes into existence by God’s will does not mean that God changes. It means God causes…

This negates your #4 and 5 and affirms #1

The assumption that God and Creation are the same, making God subject to change, is a gross error and where your argument falls apart.