Changes In Euchristic Prayer Form ("Epiklesis")

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centurionguard

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Please do not think of me as being picky with Eucharistic prayer formula.

But from week to week I don’t always see the same priest whether it be weekdays or weekend Solemnities.

Some variations between Eucharistic Prayer 1 (“The Roman Canon”) and in the Eucharistic Prayer 2 and 3; words taken from the Gospel of Mark, Matthew and Luke.
The follow Prayers below may be mixed up in the order of EP 1,2, and 3, so please bear with me.
**# Mark 14:22-24 - "While they were eating, he (Jesus) took a loaf of bread,
and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to them,
and said, ‘Take; this is my body.’
Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, and all of them drank from it.
He said to them, ‘This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.’ "

,Matt 26:26-28 - "While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread,​

and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples
and said, ‘Take, eat; this is my body.’
Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you;
for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.’ "

Luke 22:17, 19-20 - "Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks​

he said, ‘Take this and divide it among yourselves;…’
Then he took a loaf of bread,
and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them,
saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’
And he did the same with the cup after supper,
saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.’ "**
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Looking at Matt 26:26-28 - "While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread,
and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples

My question is- can the priest substitute gave it to the disciples for He gave it to his friends and said;…

Again; I’m not trying to be picky…just trying to understand why (“disciples”) would be omitted.

I realize the effect of the prayer doesn’t change the actual consecration.

Why mess with the Rubrics?

Peace
Chris
 
centurionguard said:
Please do not think of me as being picky with Eucharistic prayer formula.

But from week to week I don’t always see the same priest whether it be weekdays or weekend Solemnities.

Some variations between Eucharistic Prayer 1 (“The Roman Canon”) and in the Eucharistic Prayer 2 and 3; words taken from the Gospel of Mark, Matthew and Luke.
The follow Prayers below may be mixed up in the order of EP 1,2, and 3, so please bear with me.

Looking at Matt 26:26-28 - "While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread,
and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples

My question is- can the priest substitute gave it to the disciples for He gave it to his friends and said;…

Again; I’m not trying to be picky…just trying to understand why (“disciples”) would be omitted.

I realize the effect of the prayer doesn’t change the actual consecration.

Why mess with the Rubrics?

Peace
Chris
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Why indeed? Who can know the mind of the priest who changes the words?

Doing so is illicit and a liturgical abuse. Providing he says the words of consecration correctly the Mass is still valid.
 
This has been happening at NO masses in the Austin area as well. This very substitution.

Matthew, are you sure that the Eucharist is still valid in this case?
 
This has nothing to do with the Epiklesis.

The Epiklesis is the calling down of the Holy Spirit to make the change in the elements for the consecration. In Eucharistic Prayers 2 and 3 it occurs before the Words of Institution. For the Roman Canon (Eucharistic Prayer 1) it is implied and not explicit but it also occurs before the Words of Institution.
 
Adeodatus said:
This has been happening at NO masses in the Austin area as well. This very substitution.

Matthew, are you sure that the Eucharist is still valid in this case?
Click to expand...
I believe so.

Obviously, the Mass must be celebrated by a validly ordained male priest. (Let’s assume the priest in question is in good standing with the Church and he is not prohibited from offering the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass.)

The priest’s intent must be to confect the Eucharist: the priest must have the intent of doing what the Church does, that being the intent to make Jesus physically present via the miracle of transubstantiation at the consecration.

Valid matter must be used: unleavened bread made from baking wheat flour and water and alcohol-containing wine fermented from grape juice with no additions (this is valid matter in the Latin Catholic Church sui iuris, it is different in the 22 sui iuris Chaldean, Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches). See Cann. 924 and 926 and GIRM #'s 282-285.

Let’s take all these as a given in these circumstances.

The valid form is: the key phrases which confect the Eucharist, these are “This is My Body” and “This is … My Blood,” which when said by a priest with the proper intention and matter, truly show the priest acts in persona Christi. Other parts of the Eucharistic prayer are, according to St. Ambrose (also quoted in Summa Theologica), essentially preparatory. St. Thomas Aquinas also explains this requirement in great detail in Summa Theologica (Third Part, Question 78, Articles 1 through 6). Changing the words of the preparatory parts of the Eucharistic prayer is illicit and gravely sinful for the priest, but would not invalidate the Eucharist as long as “This is My Body” and “This is … My Blood” are said.
 
Adeodatus said:
This has been happening at NO masses in the Austin area as well. This very substitution.

Matthew, are you sure that the Eucharist is still valid in this case?
Click to expand...
I believe so. (Discalimer: based on the information we have to hand.)

Obviously, the Mass must be celebrated by a validly ordained male priest. (Let’s assume the priest in question is in good standing with the Church and he is not prohibited from offering the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass.)

The priest’s intent must be to confect the Eucharist: the priest must have the intent of doing what the Church does, that being the intent to make Jesus physically present via the miracle of “transubstantiation” (I know this term itself is not mandatory) at the consecration.

Valid matter must be used: unleavened bread made from baking wheat flour and water and alcohol-containing wine fermented from grape juice with no additions (this is valid matter in the Latin Catholic Church sui iuris, it is different in the 22 sui iuris Chaldean, Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches). See Cann. 924 and 926 and GIRM #'s 282-285.

Let’s take all these as a given in these circumstances.

The valid form is: the key phrases which confect the Eucharist, these are “This is My Body” and “This is … My Blood,” which when said by a priest with the proper intention and matter, truly show the priest acts in persona Christi. Other parts of the Eucharistic Prayer are, according to St. Ambrose (also quoted in Summa Theologica), essentially preparatory. St. Thomas Aquinas also explains this requirement in great detail in Summa Theologica (Third Part, Question 78, Articles 1-6). Changing the words of the preparatory parts of the Eucharistic prayer is illicit and gravely sinful for the priest, but would not invalidate the Eucharist as long as “This is My Body” and “This is … My Blood” are said.

I hope this helps.

Matt:)
 
Spirithound said:
This is probably one of the Eucharistic Prayers for Masses with Children.

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EPC1-3.htm

All 3 use “friends”.
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Obviously, using one of these Eucharistic Prayers would not invalidate the Mass; isn’t the use of these reserved for circumstances when all or most of those at Mass are children. I know the OP gave no indication as to whether she was at a children’s Mass. I infer from her comments that she wasn’t.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
Valid matter must be used: unleavened bread made from baking wheat flour and water and alcohol-containing wine fermented from grape juice with no additions (this is valid matter in the Latin Catholic Church sui iuris, it is different in the 22 sui iuris Chaldean, Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches). See Cann. 924 and 926 and GIRM #'s 282-285.
Click to expand...
FWIW, valid matter is the same across all Catholic churches, and it is a long-settled matter that leavened bread, though illicit, is completely valid in the Latin rite. See De Defectibus, inter alia.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
Obviously, using one of these Eucharistic Prayers would not invalidate the Mass; isn’t the use of these reserved for circumstances when all or most of those at Mass are children. I know the OP gave no indication as to whether she was at a children’s Mass. I infer from her comments that she wasn’t.
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I have read on these fora that it is restricted to when most of those at Mass are children, but you know, I can’t imagine getting that many 3-child families together… 😉
 
Spirithound said:
This is probably one of the Eucharistic Prayers for Masses with Children.

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EPC1-3.htm

All 3 use “friends”.
Click to expand...
This is probably one of the Eucharistic Prayers for Masses with Children.
Click to expand...
At first thought I too thought the word “friends” was taken of the Children’s Mass Sacramentary. Many priests I find will use the Children’s Mass on Sunday morning at 11:00 am. Not sure why?

Peace
Chris
 
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