Changes in the English Language Mass

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rabark
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sounds confusing.
OK. I can see how it might be.

The point is that there is a set of universal norms that apply to the whole world (for the Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite). Those are what we see in the “typical” edition–meaning the Roman Missal printed in Latin. This edition is the “standard” on which all the vernacular language missals are based.

Following the teachings of Vatican II, each country (or sometimes group of countries who share a language and have similar culture) has a conference of bishops (you know this, but it’s necessary to say it to setup the explanation); and the role of each bishops conference is to propose adaptations to the Roman Missal for use in its own territory. They aren’t required to consider changes, rather they are invited to do so. The idea is that because different cultures see things different ways, there may be legitimate reasons for why the Mass should be celebrated just-a-little-bit differently in any given country. The bishops decide on a change. They propose this change to Rome. If Rome approves, then the changes become liturgical law for that country.

Sometimes the changes are along-side what’s in the universal version (the typical edition). An example of this is vestments for a funeral. The universal color is black. In the US permission has been given that white may be used as an option. So either black or white is within the norms–both universal and particular.

Other times, the changes for a country are very different from what’s in the typical edition. In that case, only the changes apply. The universal norm (even though it is still “universal”) does not apply for that country. Only the adaptation can be done. Keep in mind, this has to have the prior approval of Rome. Unfortunately, I can’t think of a good example here, so let’s go with kneeling for Communion since that’s the topic at hand. The universal norm says “kneeling” but the norm for the US says “standing” and they meant (note the past tense) “standing only.” So in the US (again, past tense) the adapted-and-approved norm took precedence over the universal norm of kneeling.

The bottom line is that when one uses the phrase “universal norm” it doesn’t necessarily mean that “the norm is universal.” Most of the time it does, sometimes it doesn’t. The important point to keep in mind is that all of these national adaptations have been approved by the Holy See, so even if one might not “like” something, they’re legitimate and binding on everyone in that territory. It all depends upon how the adaptation was approved. Was it approved as an option? (like white vestments) or was it approved as a requirement? If Rome approved the adaptation in such a way that it is required, then that’s the liturgical law/norm for that territory, even if it does contradict the universal norm.
 
I had a similar question on whether or not in the reformed Mass, if is declared that the Blood of Christ was shed for many. I know that they changed the teaching in the New Mass in the USA when they declared that the Blood of Christ was shed for all.
actually, no teaching was changed. it was simply a horrible translation
 
actually, no teaching was changed.
Unless you follow the Lex orandi, lex credendi principle.

You’re right, it’s a translation but many, if not most, people use translations as a baseline for their beliefs, which is unfortunate.
 
actually, no teaching was changed. it was simply a horrible translation
No.
Before Vatican II it was taught that the Blood was shed for many.
After Vatican II, in the USA, it is now taught in the USA that the Blood was shed for all.
This is the current teaching and it is obvious that the teaching has been changed.
Do you agree or disagree that the Blood was shed for all?
Was the Blood shed for all or not?
 
No.
Before Vatican II it was taught that the Blood was shed for many.
After Vatican II, in the USA, it is now taught in the USA that the Blood was shed for all.
This is the current teaching and it is obvious that the teaching has been changed.
Do you agree or disagree that the Blood was shed for all?
Was the Blood shed for all or not?
The official teaching was always and still is pro vobis et pro multis, way before English started defining and redefining everything. Some started even defining multis as “the many,” which means something different than just “many.”
 
No.
Before Vatican II it was taught that the Blood was shed for many.
After Vatican II, in the USA, it is now taught in the USA that the Blood was shed for all.
This is the current teaching and it is obvious that the teaching has been changed.
Do you agree or disagree that the Blood was shed for all?
Was the Blood shed for all or not?
No, sir, you are wrong. Absolutely no dogmatic teaching was changed, modified, or introduced by the Second Vatican Council.

What you are speaking of is a matter of translation.

This is the new translation of the consecration of the wine:

“Take this, all of you, and drink from it,
for this is the chalice of my blood,
the blood of the new and eternal covenant,
which will be poured out for you and for many
for the forgiveness of sins.
Do this in memory of me.”

This wording will be used starting on the First Sunday of Advent. The phrase in question, “for many,” was, since 1973, incorrectly rendered as, “for all.” The original Latin is “pro multis,” which literally means, “for many,” not, “for all.” The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments ordered this change as per keeping in line with Liturgiam authenticam, a declaration of the Holy See.
 
No.
Before Vatican II it was taught that the Blood was shed for many.
After Vatican II, in the USA, it is now taught in the USA that the Blood was shed for all.
This is the current teaching and it is obvious that the teaching has been changed.
Do you agree or disagree that the Blood was shed for all?
Was the Blood shed for all or not?
in short, there was no change in teaching. i am not in a position to explain why, but it is clear there was no change in teaching, only a bad translation.

if you would kindly notice, the 2010 translation of the OF actually remedies this.
 
The original Latin is “pro multis,” which literally means, “for many,” not, “for all.”
Actually it could also mean “multitudes” or “numerous” as well. But of more noteworthiness it should be distinguished from the stronger (and wider) pluribus which could also be translated as “many.”
 
Actually it could also mean “multitudes” or “numerous” as well. But of more noteworthiness it should be distinguished from the stronger (and wider) pluribus which could also be translated as “many.”
True, but I just want to emphasize that “multis” does NOT mean “all.” “Multis” could be “many,” or, as you say, “multitudes” or “numerous,” but it does not mean “all.”
 
No.
Before Vatican II it was taught that the Blood was shed for many.
After Vatican II, in the USA, it is now taught in the USA that the Blood was shed for all.
This is the current teaching and it is obvious that the teaching has been changed.
Do you agree or disagree that the Blood was shed for all?
Was the Blood shed for all or not?
The answers above are not quite right. The truth, and the teaching of the Church, is that Christ’s Precious Blood was shed both for many and for all, simply in different senses. God, after all, desires the salvation of all, and the salvific power of the Blood can extend to all, opening the gates of Heaven to all. However, not all will actually accept this gift. As a result, the Blood was shed with the intention that salvation should extend to all, but it is effective only for many.

To quote Cardinal Arinze on this topic:
Indeed, the formula “for all” would undoubtedly correspond to a correct interpretation of the Lord’s intention expressed in the text. It is a dogma of faith that Christ died on the cross for all men and women (cf. John 11:52; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; Titus 2:11; 1 John 2:2).

There are, however, many arguments in favor of a more precise rendering of the traditional formula pro multis:

The Synoptic Gospels (Mt 26:28; Mk 14:24) make specific reference to “many” for whom the Lord is offering the Sacrifice, and this wording has been emphasized by some biblical scholars in connection with the words of the prophet Isaiah (53:11-12). It would have been entirely possible in the Gospel texts to have said “for all” (for example, cf. Luke 12:41); instead, the formula given in the institution narrative is “for many” the words have been faithfully translated thus in most modern biblical versions. The Roman Rite in Latin has always said pro multis and never pro omnibus in the consecration of the chalice.
. . .
“For many” is a faithful translation of pro multis, whereas “for all” is rather an explanation of the sort that belongs properly to catechesis.

The expression “for many,” while remaining open to the inclusion of each human person, is reflective also of the fact that this salvation is not brought about in some mechanistic way, without one’s own willing or participation; rather, the believer is invited to accept in faith the gift that is being offered and to receive the supernatural life that is given to those who participate in this mystery, living it out in their lives as well so as to be numbered among the “many” to whom the text refers.
 
True, but I just want to emphasize that “multis” does NOT mean “all.” “Multis” could be “many,” or, as you say, “multitudes” or “numerous,” but it does not mean “all.”
Depends on your population. All who are Catholic are not all of the total population of the planet. “All” and “many” aren’t necessarily contradictory.

I would agree with you but there are quite a few who will argue to no ends that Christ did indeed shed his blood for all men and all women, though not all will want the benefits.
 
Depends on your population. All who are Catholic are not all of the total population of the planet.

I would agree with you but there are quite a few who will argue to no ends that Christ did indeed shed his blood for all, though not all will want the benefits.
I’m not arguing doctrine, though. I’m just arguing translation. Which, yes, is rooted in doctrine, but I’ve left that up to the Church.

I know what the doctrine is, but I was arguing simply, only, and wholly on a translation level.
 
I’m not arguing doctrine, though. I’m just arguing translation. Which, yes, is rooted in doctrine, but I’ve left that up to the Church.
True, but remember translations aren’t infallible and are quite subjective. I quit the business of translations (Polish to English) a long time ago after so much criticism of not SOUNDING right and/or making the originator sound foolish. Perhaps I translated too literally; there is such a thing, you know.
 
No, sir, you are wrong. Absolutely no dogmatic teaching was changed, modified, or introduced by the Second Vatican Council.

What you are speaking of is a matter of translation.

This is the new translation of the consecration of the wine:

“Take this, all of you, and drink from it,
for this is the chalice of my blood,
the blood of the new and eternal covenant,
which will be poured out for you and for many
for the forgiveness of sins.
Do this in memory of me.”

This wording will be used starting on the First Sunday of Advent. The phrase in question, “for many,” was, since 1973, incorrectly rendered as, “for all.” The original Latin is “pro multis,” which literally means, “for many,” not, “for all.” The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments ordered this change as per keeping in line with Liturgiam authenticam, a declaration of the Holy See.
It is in writing, and you cannot deny what is in the official text of the New Mass and what every priest in the USA declares as he consecrates the Blood in the New Mass. This is in every missalette for the New Mass in the USA. The official text currently in use says that the Blood was shed for all. It is stated in plain English and anyone can read what is written there.
 
It is in writing, and you cannot deny what is in the official text of the New Mass and what every priest in the USA declares as he consecrates the Blood in the New Mass. This is in every missalette for the New Mass in the USA. The official text currently in use says that the Blood was shed for all. It is stated in plain English and anyone can read what is written there.
What do you mean? The current translation, the translation of 1973, plainly says, “for all.” This translation, in less than two months, will be abrogated, and replaced by the new translation. In this new translation, the phrase “for all” will be replaced by “for many.”

You’re right if what you are saying is that the current translation says “for all.” However, this translation is about to be not used anymore. That’s what I’m saying. So, we’re both right.
 
What do you mean? The current translation, the translation of 1973, plainly says, “for all.” This translation, in less than two months, will be abrogated, and replaced by the new translation. In this new translation, the phrase “for all” will be replaced by “for many.”

You’re right if what you are saying is that the current translation says “for all.” However, this translation is about to be not used anymore. That’s what I’m saying. So, we’re both right.
BTW, do you believe that the Blood was shed for all?
 
BTW, do you believe that the Blood was shed for all?
I’m not going to answer this question, because my belief has nothing to do with this thread, which is discussing changes in the translation, not my beliefs.

Now, don’t go and interpret that as meaning that I don’t believe it was shed for all, or that I do.

The translation is not going to change based on what I believe, or what you believe and want it to be, and just because I said that the new translation says “for many” rather than “for all” does not mean I believe that the Blood was shed only for a select group. It’s a fact, a hard fact, that that is the new, more correct wording, and a decision that was made not by me, but by ICEL.
 
True, but I just want to emphasize that “multis” does NOT mean “all.” “Multis” could be “many,” or, as you say, “multitudes” or “numerous,” but it does not mean “all.”
That is true and that is why I think that the teaching has changed. Otherwise, how would anyone explain why the Pope said that the Blood was shed for all when he said a New Mass in English?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top