Changes to Mormon Scriptures

[Aramis]

I agree Two. It seems like the lds cant see that its all based on lies and deception.

At least the FLDS keep the original version around for comparison.

 

[Porknpie]

My personal favorite:

Title page: (both versions) 1830: “…by Joseph Smith, jr., **author **and proprietor”

Today: “**translated **by Joseph Smith, jr.”

Read more here.

Two, this is my favorite as well. It shows that JS published a fictional book and named himself as the author. This explains why there is no archeological evidence…no chariots…no elephants…no swords…no human remains of 2.2m people on hill Cumorah in NY. That science does not support the BoM, just fantasy and theory…and we do not see Mormon theology practiced in the early Church.

There was no apostasy in the Catholic Church, let alone a great apostasy.

Time to make coffee. It’s really a shame, that Mormons have faith in a book of fiction that keeps them from knowing the true nature and revelation of our God…and that they can not enjoy a morning cup of coffee.

:coffeeread:

 

[Janderich]

I believe what the Church teaches about it:

"Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation." (Dei Verbum 11).

If you believe that the Bible contains errors, how do you know what is error and what is not? It is not the Bible that is in error, it is the private interpretation that is in error. An inspired book requires an infallible interpreter, without one it is difficult to impossible to extract the truth from the pages of Scripture.

We live in an imperfect world with imperfect teachers. As I said before all books contain some error. There is only one sure way to separate truth from error. It is through the Holy Ghost. Jesus said, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” (John 16:13) We must be guided by this spirit. It is through this gift, that we may sort through the many teachings and false doctrines that abound. The Book of Mormon contains the same truth, "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God the Eternal Father, in the name of Crist, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Chrsit, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holly Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10:4-5).

Now this is usually the part where people start making light of what I say. As if the spirit is inconsequential. As if feelings and thoughts are meaningless. But I say, no Christian can call himself such if he does not follow this guide.

 

[Janderich]

The claim for the Book of Mormon is that is came to be via supernatural means, both in how Smith acquired it and how it was translated. The translation part, in particular, should be perfect. When substantial changes are made to it, how would you know that the changes are right? You have NO documents to go back to in order to verify the translation.

We have the original manuscript from the scribes which Joseph dictated to which is more than you have for the Bible.

RebeccaJ:

It is a poor claim to say we don’t have old documents for the Bible. You should study up on how modern translations of the Bible are being done. The methods, and available documents to translate from, compared one against the other, are far improved over the days of the King’s men.

I never said there were no old documents for the Bible. I said, the originals are gone. That all you have left are copies of copies. This is another ironic point. You, and others, beat on the fact that we don’t have the gold plates and yet you have no original Bible documents.

RebeccaJ:

I also think that you should stop giving the impression that Mormonism teaches the Bible and Book of Mormon are equally reliable, when it is clearly Mormon teaching that the Bible can be trusted only so far,while the Book of Mormon can be trusted with absolute certainty.

Like most things, Mormons have everything turned upside down.

Rebecca, this is so funny. You ex-LDS claiming we believe the BofM is perfect and me a current, active, LDS member telling you that there are man made errors. Shouldn’t this be the other way around? I love how I and all Mormons are told what we believe by you.

Now, was the BofM translated by the power of God? Yes. But were humans involved in the translation? Yes. Joseph had to speak the right words. Then, a scribe had to put down the right words on paper. Further, the printer had to print the right words. There a number of chances for error along the way and a few did occur. I do not need the BofM to be absolutely perfect to sustain and build my faith. Do you expect the words of the Bible to be perfect? You almost sound like a Protestant.

 

[twopekinguys]

Very well, there are whole books written about this topic. There have been thousands of changes and much of it cannot be verified because the oldest Biblical documents we have are copies of copies. However, even these have changed over time. One book, “Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Ehrman points out a couple of the more egregious errors.

If we are being honest it is important to be honest about both books. This idea of inerrancy is simply foolishness.

Relying on the website you quoted is what is absurd.

One is a lawyer (No offense Tex), one is a computer hacker (who is associated with an athiest website), a couple of musicians.

NONE of them show any signs of having any credentials what would make them a respectable, or respected researcher.

So, your premise fails. Miserably, I might add.

Now let’s get back to the changes to the BoM shall we?

 

[Phntm]

We have the original manuscript from the scribes which Joseph dictated to which is more than you have for the Bible.
I never said there were no old documents for the Bible. I said, the originals are gone. That all you have left are copies of copies. This is another ironic point. You, and others, beat on the fact that we don’t have the gold plates and yet you have no original Bible documents.

What about the difference in how the two books were created? The creation of the BoM is alleged to be created through two divine interventions (Angel handing over the plates and translation through the spirit - which was necessary as no one was an expert in translating “Reformed Egyptian”)? Is this a correct assertion? Then how are you finding a similarity between “errors” in the BoM and “error” in the Bible? Would not the direct intervention make a better record? This was an opportunity for the divine intervention to make the book exactly as intended, rather than allow the frailties of man to taint the copy. Can not God have the power to have prevented the fallen man from making mistakes in a book He was essentially dictating through the “translation” process?

Rebecca, this is so funny. You ex-LDS claiming we believe the BofM is perfect and me a current, active, LDS member telling you that there are man made errors. Shouldn’t this be the other way around? I love how I and all Mormons are told what we believe by you.

Careful that you do not fall into the same mistake. Are you now telling Rebecca what she believes? My experience corresponds with Rebecca’s more than yours. Have the LDS changed their education process and are no longer teaching the “most correct” perspective?

Now, was the BofM translated by the power of God? Yes. But were humans involved in the translation? Yes. Joseph had to speak the right words. Then, a scribe had to put down the right words on paper. Further, the printer had to print the right words. There a number of chances for error along the way and a few did occur. I do not need the BofM to be absolutely perfect to sustain and build my faith. Do you expect the words of the Bible to be perfect? You almost sound like a Protestant.

I covered this above

 

[Janderich]

Relying on the website you quoted is what is absurd.

One is a lawyer (No offense Tex), one is a computer hacker (who is associated with an athiest website), a couple of musicians.

NONE of them show any signs of having any credentials what would make them a respectable, or respected researcher.

So, your premise fails. Miserably, I might add.

Now let’s get back to the changes to the BoM shall we?

I am not relying on the website. There are many books and many scholars who have written about changes to the Bible. I was simply giving you a location to start your search for the truth. Do you refuse to acknowledge that there have been changes to the Bible text?

 

[twopekinguys]

I am not relying on the website. There are many books and many scholars who have written about changes to the Bible. I was simply giving you a location to start your search for the truth. Do you refuse to acknowledge that there have been changes to the Bible text?

You haven’t provided any proof.

You made the statement, the burden of proof is on you.

A blog, by unqualified, lawyers, hackers,athies and musicians is not a good place to start.

Since your premise failed, and quite miserably I might add, let’s get back to the topic of the thread shall we?

 

[kimg901]

Hello Jan. I still havent gotten a response for post #50. Thanks.

I also decided to look up “changes in the bible” and the only real changes are that of the KJV. Many changes there but not to the bible we catholics use. We have had many translations but as far as changes, just a couple, and thats when they were deciding what should be in the bible and what shouldnt

 

[Janderich]

What about the difference in how the two books were created? The creation of the BoM is alleged to be created through two divine interventions (Angel handing over the plates and translation through the spirit - which was necessary as no one was an expert in translating “Reformed Egyptian”)? Is this a correct assertion? Then how are you finding a similarity between “errors” in the BoM and “error” in the Bible? Would not the direct intervention make a better record? This was an opportunity for the divine intervention to make the book exactly as intended, rather than allow the frailties of man to taint the copy. Can not God have the power to have prevented the fallen man from making mistakes in a book He was essentially dictating through the “translation” process?

You are correct that the Book of Mormon was translated with the aid of heavenly messengers and through heavenly intervention. It does make the book much more accurate and correct then other religious books including the Bible but it does not make the book perfect. The Lord works through men. He always has. Men are imperfect by nature. When he works through men errors will arise.

 

[kimg901]

You are correct that the Book of Mormon was translated with the aid of heavenly messengers and through heavenly intervention. It does make the book much more accurate and correct then other religious books including the Bible but it does not make the book perfect. The Lord works through men. He always has. Men are imperfect by nature. When he works through men errors will arise.

Oh Jan, Jan, Jan. Do you realize what you just said? So the Holy Spirit aiding men is not good enough for the Bible? But some angels come down and help joe smith and we now have the most correct book but yet how many time has this correct book been changed? I know you say it was just grammatical changes and such but wouldnt God, Jesus and their angels be perfect in their intervention and helping those there to make sure it was correct the first time?

 

[twopekinguys]

Hello Jan. I still havent gotten a response for post #50. Thanks.

I also decided to look up “changes in the bible” and the only real changes are that of the KJV. Many changes there but not to the bible we catholics use. We have had many translations but as far as changes, just a couple, and thats when they were deciding what should be in the bible and what shouldnt

BINGO!!! We have a winner!!!

I would just like to clarify that when they were deciding on what should or shouldn’t be in the Bible, it isn’t really a change, because the Canon had not been closed.

 

[Phntm]

You are correct that the Book of Mormon was translated with the aid of heavenly messengers and through heavenly intervention. It does make the book much more accurate and correct then other religious books including the Bible but it does not make the book perfect. The Lord works through men. He always has. Men are imperfect by nature. When he works through men errors will arise.

kimg901:

Oh Jan, Jan, Jan. Do you realize what you just said? So the Holy Spirit aiding men is not good enough for the Bible? But some angels come down and help joe smith and we now have the most correct book but yet how many time has this correct book been changed? I know you say it was just grammatical changes and such but wouldnt God, Jesus and their angels be perfect in their intervention and helping those there to make sure it was correct the first time?

Hmm, Jan. What I am hearing is the same reason you claim the Bible is very errant is the same reason you claim the BoM is errant. Having direct intervention is not even enough to “get it right”. How can you claim the BoM is any better than the Bible based on this assertion? JS was taking dictation, the men of the Bible were writing down first-hand experiences and/or those taught within a few people of the first-hand knowledge (inspired by the Spirit to truth). And minor changes (i.e, adding a comma) can be quite profound in the meaning of a sentence - are these really “minor” changes?

 

[kimg901]

BINGO!!! We have a winner!!!

I would just like to clarify that when they were deciding on what should or shouldn’t be in the Bible, it isn’t really a change, because the Canon had not been closed.

+1

 

[Porknpie]

The Catholic Church holds that the bible is inerrant and inspired, 46 books of the OT and 27 books of the NT.

From the Catechism (The Catholic Church unlike the LDS church, with no catechism…faith and morals are unchanging over time)

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

Mormon’s are following a religion based on a fictional book, one that can not be supported by neither reason, history nor science. A book that in 1830 Joseph Smith refers to himself as the “Author”. The BoM is full of errors, including teaching that the American Indians have Middle Eastern roots and that 2.2M people were killed on Cumorah hill. Science shows this is not true. The LDS Church leadership knows this is not true. They will be accountable to The Lord at the end of time who will judge all in fairness.

There was no apostasy in the Catholic Church. The Church from the beginning, founded by Christ himself, has been led by the Holy Spirit to all Truth and has been protected from error in faith and morals for 2,000 years.

 

[JHow]

Having many manuscripts and copies of the Bible texts actually helps to remove errors from the translation, as scholars can compare versions. This is not the case for many other ancient texts, where there may only be one copy available. We can be more confident in the contents of the Bible representing the original texts than many other ancient documents, while in the case of BOM, we can’t even be confident that there was an original text at all.

As to the guiding of the Holy Spirit being the ultimate proof of whether the BOM contains truth or not, what defense would a Mormon have against the claim that I read the BOM and the Spirit moved me to understand that it was an imitation of the real word of God? If all you have to go on is an emotional reaction, rest assured, the BOM can provoke an instant dislike in those who have never been exposed to Mormon culture. I witnessed this firsthand in Poland in the early nineties when lifelong Catholics who had no experience with Americans, much less Mormons, would tell me about their encounters with Mormon missionaries. They were profoundly troubled and often looked to me for an explanation what “my countrymen” were up to, essentially asking me to provide an answer for why Americans would be spreading such a thing.

 

[kimg901]

The Catholic Church holds that the bible is inerrant and inspired, 46 books of the OT and 27 books of the NT.

From the Catechism (The Catholic Church unlike the LDS church, with no catechism…faith and morals are unchanging over time)

Mormon’s are following a religion based on a fictional book, one that can not be supported by neither reason, history nor science. A book that in 1830 Joseph Smith refers to himself as the “Author”. The BoM is full of errors, including teaching that the American Indians have Middle Eastern roots and that 2.2M people were killed on Cumorah hill. Science shows this is not true. The LDS Church leadership knows this is not true. They will be accountable to The Lord at the end of time who will judge all in fairness.

There was no apostasy in the Catholic Church. The Church from the beginning, founded by Christ himself, has been led by the Holy Spirit to all Truth and has been protected from error in faith and morals for 2,000 years.

 

[TexanKnight]

We live in an imperfect world with imperfect teachers.

but that is not true. At least, that ks NOT what LDS prophets teach…

“When the Prophet speaks, the debate is over.”-Ensign, Aug. 1979, pp. 2-3.

Said Brigham Young, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture” (Journal of Discourses, 13:95).

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt to do that, the Lord would remove me out of my place…"- President Wilford Woodruff, Deseret Evening News, Oct. 11, 1890, p. 2.

So…are you saying now your prophets have lied TWICE? Once when they taught false doctrine and once when they said they never teach false doctrine?

 

[TexanKnight]

I am not relying on the website. There are many books and many scholars who have written about changes to the Bible. I was simply giving you a location to start your search for the truth. Do you refuse to acknowledge that there have been changes to the Bible text?

Still dodging by comparing a recent book with an ancient one?

How LDS of you

 

[TexanKnight]

You are correct that the Book of Mormon was translated with the aid of heavenly messengers and through heavenly intervention. It does make the book much more accurate and correct then other religious books including the Bible but it does not make the book perfect. The Lord works through men. He always has. Men are imperfect by nature. When he works through men errors will arise.

If that were true, 75% of it would not have come the Bible and other earthly sources.