Changing 10 Commandments?

[mmm1]

Hi, guys, I’m pretty sure you can straighten something out for me. Ajk19 just posted a collection of videos in the forum Catholic News. Its title is something about the Vatican covering up the sex abuse scandal for 40 years. The video shows a report from CBS news about a secret document that I’m sure was taken out of context & exploited by CBS. A lot of the rest of the video looks like unpolished, typical anti-Catholic stuff.

There was a blurb at the end, though, that I hadn’t heard before. It was some former priest saying that the 2nd Commandment is really to not bow down & worship any idols. That the Catholic Church changed the commandments to hide this one & turned the last commandment into two. They did this, of course, because there is a lot of money in selling idols. Just this morning we were worshipping & selling idols at my parish, I thought this was OK?

I know this isn’t true, but do you have any info on how to refute this?

 

[EphelDuath]

First of all, you won’t find a single Catholic document that supports idolatry; in fact, anything that speaks of worship of anything but God is always viewed in a negative light.

Second, no. The Decalogue is given in both Exodus and Deuteronomy, and the ordering is different. So the question is how to separate them. The Catholic ordering puts “no false gods” as the same commandment with “idolatry,” and splits up “coveting neighbor’s wife” from “coveting neighbor’s good” since it’s two different sins: lust and greed. But the second commandment is still there, it’s just part of the first.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Commandments#Division_of_the_Commandments

As you can see, Jews, Protestants and Catholics all believe in all of the commandments; they just divide them differently, since it’s a bit ambiguous.

 

[on_fire]

the non Catholic 10 Commandments were issued to try and show how Catholics worshipped idols and graven images at the time of the reformation.It was St.Augustine in the 5th century that was the first to list the commandments in a set of 10 if Im not mistaken.also the n-C 10 combine the Catholic 9th and 10th together as if a neighbors wife was also a part of his property.

 

[mmm1]

Thanks so much, EphelDuath & on fire. I knew I was coming to the right place for help. I understand it better now, I just wish I knew how to quote you & post your replies in the Catholic News thread… Thanks again!

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The Ark of the Covenant was built immediately after they received the Commandments to specifications given by God along with the Commandments. Note especially Exodus 37:7-9

And he made two cherubim of hammered gold; on the two ends of the mercy seat he made them, 8 one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat he made the cherubim on its two ends. 9 The cherubim spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, with their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat were the faces of the cherubim.

These look like images to me. God must not have prohibited all images.

 

[TMC]

First of all, you won’t find a single Catholic document that supports idolatry; in fact, anything that speaks of worship of anything but God is always viewed in a negative light.

Second, no. The Decalogue is given in both Exodus and Deuteronomy, and the ordering is different. So the question is how to separate them. The Catholic ordering puts “no false gods” as the same commandment with “idolatry,” and splits up “coveting neighbor’s wife” from “coveting neighbor’s good” since it’s two different sins: lust and greed. But the second commandment is still there, it’s just part of the first.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Commandments#Division_of_the_Commandments

As you can see, Jews, Protestants and Catholics all believe in all of the commandments; they just divide them differently, since it’s a bit ambiguous.

Correct. Just go read both the Exodus and Deuteronomy versions. Neither says “commandent one is ____, commandment two is _____”. It is a narrative that could be split up any number of ways. Catholics and most liturgical Protestants (Anglicans,Lutherans) number them one way and evangelical Protestants another. I think Augustine came up with the break down we currently use. Apparently some early Church Fathers and some rabbis preferred what is now the Protestant one, which is why they use it, I guess. Its important to remember that all the commands are present in both versions, neither side omitts a commandment.

Also, keep in mind that the verse numbering was not done by the author, it was added by scribes (middle ages, I think) to make quotations and transcription easier, so the fact that one commandent covers two or three verses does not necessarily mean anything.

 

[SolaFide]

First of all, you won’t find a single Catholic document that supports idolatry; in fact, anything that speaks of worship of anything but God is always viewed in a negative light.

Second, no. The Decalogue is given in both Exodus and Deuteronomy, and the ordering is different. So the question is how to separate them. The Catholic ordering puts “no false gods” as the same commandment with “idolatry,” and splits up “coveting neighbor’s wife” from “coveting neighbor’s good” since it’s two different sins: lust and greed. But the second commandment is still there, it’s just part of the first.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Commandments#Division_of_the_Commandments

As you can see, Jews, Protestants and Catholics all believe in all of the commandments; they just divide them differently, since it’s a bit ambiguous.

With all due respect it is NOT ambiguous. Even in the link you posted to Wikipedia in all the major groups, except the RCC the second commandment is against idols.

Also with many Jewish friends, and let’s not forget the Tanakh, or OT was given to the Jews, and they will ALL tell you that the 2nd commandment is against idols. They were sooooo much against idols in Jesus day that when Pontius Pilate arrived in Palestine for his new post of governor a riot erupted because he walked up the temple mount with eagles emblazoned on his flags!

It is true that the RCC “hid” the 2nd commandment to make idols in the worship places and services more palatable to the masses. Idols were never allowed to be a part of formal worship, there was to be no idols or images directing worship of the faithful either depicting the true God or any false gods.

Here is the rendering of the 10 commandments from the Jewish historian Josephus: “Antiquities of the Jews, Book 3 chapter 5”

“5. The first commandment teaches us that there is but one God, and that we ought to worship him only. The second commands us not to make the image of any living creature to worship it. The third, that we must not swear by God in a false matter. The fourth, that we must keep the seventh day, by resting from all sorts of work. The fifth, that we must honor our parents. The sixth that we must abstain from murder. The seventh that we must not commit adultery. The eighth, that we must not be guilty of theft. The ninth, that we must not bear false witness. The tenth, that we must not admit of the desire of any thing that is another’s.”

 

[EphelDuath]

It is true that the RCC “hid” the 2nd commandment to make idols in the worship places and services more palatable to the masses.

It’s sad that people actually buy this ridiculous propaganda.

“No other gods before me” and “don’t make any idols” mean the same thing. Hence they don’t need to be two different commandments. It’s ridiculous to say we “hid” the Second Commandment because they aren’t numbered in the BIble. To prove such a colossal claim, you would have to show me a single time the Catholic Church has displayed the Ten Commandments and the “have no idols” clause is outright removed. Because if it’s still there, we still follow it.

You’re saying it’s not ambiguous, seemingly unaware that every major religious group that believes in the commandments orders them differently. You even admitted they do so, but you’re still carefully wording your post so it looks like Catholics “don’t get it” but everyone else does.

Prove to me Catholics worship idols and I’ll become Protestant. It hasn’t happened yet, because you’re receiving all of your propaganda from Jack Chick, Lorraine Boettner and Bob Jones. It’s a shame that you put these people before God.

 

[SolaFide]

It’s sad that people actually buy this ridiculous propaganda.

“No other gods before me” and “don’t make any idols” mean the same thing. Hence they don’t need to be two different commandments. It’s ridiculous to say we “hid” the Second Commandment because they aren’t numbered in the BIble. To prove such a colossal claim, you would have to show me a single time the Catholic Church has displayed the Ten Commandments and the “have no idols” clause is outright removed. Because if it’s still there, we still follow it.

You’re saying it’s not ambiguous, seemingly unaware that every major religious group that believes in the commandments orders them differently. You even admitted they do so, but you’re still carefully wording your post so it looks like Catholics “don’t get it” but everyone else does.

Prove to me Catholics worship idols and I’ll become Protestant. It hasn’t happened yet, because you’re receiving all of your propaganda from **Jack Chick, Lorraine Boettner **and Bob Jones. It’s a shame that you put these people before God.

Never heard of them. Bob Jones, yes, but never read or listened to anything he said or wrote.

Sadly, all you have to do is check Jewish history and the Jewish Scriptures. You seem to be the one with your head in the sand not me.

Did you look at that list on Wikipedia? Did you even notice that the ONLY church that doesn’t have the 2nd commandment as no idols or images is the Catholic church? All the other churches have all the others the same, the only one that doesn’t is the Catholic church. What does that tell you? Who gave the Catholic church the right to change God’s commandments?

 

[TheOneTrueFred]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

CHAPTER ONE
“YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND”

ARTICLE 1
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them

If that’s hidden, out in the open must require a bullhorn.

 

[SolaFide]

The Ark of the Covenant was built immediately after they received the Commandments to specifications given by God along with the Commandments. Note especially Exodus 37:7-9 These look like images to me. God must not have prohibited all images.

1. First of all the Ark of the Covenant NEVER depicted God in any form, it depicted His mercy seat or throne and we know from Scripture that cherubim surround the throne of God.
2. The Ark of the Covenant was NEVER seen by the people at large after it was placed in the Holy of Holies. It was only seen by the High priest and only once a year. It wasn’t accessible to the average person. That means the cherubim would never be venerated by the average person. Thus God prevented the Ark from becoming an object of worship. Not even the ark was to be venerated…when it was it was taken from the people in war (1 Sam. 4).
3. The bronze serpent (which I’m sure someone will use as an excuse for idols) was only to be used on ONE occassion as a type or picture of Christ and how he would heal from sin (John 3:14). But since the people began to venerate that too, God had one of the good kings smash it to bits (2 Kings 18:4).
4. Moses’ body was taken and buried by an angel of the Lord so the people wouldn’t venerate it.

Seems God went to A LOT of trouble to make sure the faithful didn’t venerate images or relics yet why are they so prevalent in some churches?

 

[SolaFide]

If that’s hidden, out in the open must require a bullhorn.

Yes, tucked away into the first commandment. NOT a separate commandment which would be much more visible and apparent.

The point is, the RCC CHANGED the numbering of the 10 Commandments. Why didn’t they go with the accepted Jewish version? I mean God did entrust them with the Old Testament/Tanakh, why couldn’t the RCC trust it the way it was?

Look inside any catholic church and you’ll get a good idea.

 

[TheOneTrueFred]

The point is, the RCC CHANGED the numbering of the 10 Commandments. Why didn’t they go with the accepted Jewish version? I mean God did entrust them with the Old Testament/Tanakh, why couldn’t the RCC trust it the way it was?

The Tanakh doesn’t number the commandments. We’re told that there are ten, and worked it out. Why keep going back to Jewish traditions that were chrystalized after Christ warned us to reject them (and after they rejected Christ)? We don’t put rabbinical commentary in our bibles either, and with good cause.

 

[EphelDuath]

Sadly, all you have to do is check Jewish history and the Jewish Scriptures. You seem to be the one with your head in the sand not me.

Jewish history didn’t number the Commandments. Such a commodity didn’t exist until later days.

Did you look at that list on Wikipedia? Did you even notice that the ONLY church that doesn’t have the 2nd commandment as no idols or images is the Catholic church?

Have you noticed that the ONLY church that has “covet thy neighbor’s goods” separate from “covet thy neighbor’s wife” is the Catholics? I guess Protestants accept adultery and fornication, since they tucked the 9th commandment away with the 10th.

Your sentimental propaganda is worded precisely to cause emotional outrage. The reason why it’s legions less effective on a forum is because I can respond to this for all people to see so they’ll know what nonsense you discharge, as opposed to a book or comic strip, where the only opinion offered is the author’s. It’s not going to work. God will prevail, not the heretics.

All the other churches have all the others the same, the only one that doesn’t is the Catholic church. What does that tell you? Who gave the Catholic church the right to change God’s commandments?

Jesus. Matthew 16:19 is a fun verse.

But that’s irrelevant because we didn’t change anything. The ordering itself is pretty unimportant, and it didn’t exist until the verses became numbered in, what, the 9th century or something, by a Catholic?

1. First of all the Ark of the Covenant NEVER depicted God in any form, it depicted His mercy seat or throne and we know from Scripture that cherubim surround the throne of God.

You just ignored the verse he posted. The Ark depicts Cherubim, angels. If that’s idolatry, then it must be pretty pious idolatry because it’s God ordered.

1. The Ark of the Covenant was NEVER seen by the people at large after it was placed in the Holy of Holies.

They marched it around Jericho a couple times.

1. The bronze serpent (which I’m sure someone will use as an excuse for idols)

We’re not excusing idolatry, it’s mortal sin. We in fact condemn it more than most religions do. Check the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Not even the ark was to be venerated.

Outright lie. David and Israel danced, sang, blew trumpets and offered incense in front of the Ark. 2 Samuel 6:13-16.

 

[rpp]

So, SolaFide, according to you and other sources, the Church is trying to hide idolotry by numbering the Commnadments. Seems to me that if the Church wanted to do such a thing, it would have been easier to simply exclude that from they Bible. After all, the Church had absolute control of the Bible for 1500 years. More importantly, the Church had absolute control of the Bible as it was being codified in the 3rd and 4th century.

But let’s look at your argument in a differnt way. Let’s apply the logic you are using with the protestant numbering of the 10 commandments. So looking at the 10th commandment, apparently women are the same as cattle. Is that really what you are proposing? I honestly do not think so. To make such an assertion would be an insult to protestants and not accurately represent protestant teachings.

Just like the silly assertions about the Catholic First Commandment.

By the way, the arc was not the only thing decorated with non-geometric designs. The curtain of the tabernacle was decorated with many images. Also the Arc of the Covenant was often on public display. It was even carried into battle (and lost) once. King David danced in front of it as it was being transported to Jerusalem.

How the commandments are numbered number do not really may much difference, ultimately. After all, they are a summary of the Law. As such we are to learn and follow their precepts. Such assertions are not intended to edify.

 

[st_lucy]

It is true that the RCC “hid” the 2nd commandment to make idols in the worship places and services more palatable to the masses. Idols were never allowed to be a part of formal worship, there was to be no idols or images directing worship of the faithful either depicting the true God or any false gods.

How sad it is when there are those who like to accuss others of failing the first and second commandments when they themselves like to ignor the eighth.

You spread falsehoods when you state what you did in this quote. I am now teaching my 6 year old the ten commandments and just as my mother taught me and her mother taught her and so on. I have taught him that the second commandment does indeed state that we shall not worship idols. Any Catholic and any Christian for that matter would tell you that “Thou shall not have other gods besides me” Means not to worship other gods.

Please stop trying assume that you know the CC when infact you do not. IF you are so bent on teaching the ten commandments to others please always keep in mind the other eight before you run around spreading falsehoods about your brothers.

Just a thought.

 

[TMC]

Yes, tucked away into the first commandment. NOT a separate commandment which would be much more visible and apparent.

The point is, the RCC CHANGED the numbering of the 10 Commandments. Why didn’t they go with the accepted Jewish version? I mean God did entrust them with the Old Testament/Tanakh, why couldn’t the RCC trust it the way it was?

Look inside any catholic church and you’ll get a good idea.

This would be silly if you were not seemingly so serious. The Commandments were not numbered in Scripture. Have you read Exodus and Deuteronomy? Did you see numbering in there? Modern Jews also combine what most Protestants call 1 with 2. They say the prohibition on idols is in 2, but combine it with the command to “have no other Gods before Me.” The commandment they put as no 1 is “I am the Lord your God” standing by itself.

Catholicism does not in any way support the worship of idols. Can you show any document or statement from the Church that says otherwise?

 

[rpp]

This would be silly if you were not seemingly so serious. The Commandments were not numbered in Scripture. Have you read Exodus and Deuteronomy? Did you see numbering in there? Modern Jews also combine what most Protestants call 1 with 2. They say the prohibition on idols is in 2, but combine it with the command to “have no other Gods before Me.” The commandment they put as no 1 is “I am the Lord your God” standing by itself.

** Catholicism does not in any way support the worship of idols. Can you show any document or statement from the Church that says otherwise?**

In fact the church specifically condemns the practice.

Just because some people cannot appreciate art or be inspired by it does not mean that all people should be condemned to a dreary, dull and plain existence.

Remember it is a very modern idea, less than 150 years old, that art is about self-expression. Before that, it was about conveying a a commonly understood message with images.

 

[juliamajor]

Yes, tucked away into the first commandment. NOT a separate commandment which would be much more visible and apparent.

The point is, the RCC CHANGED the numbering of the 10 Commandments. Why didn’t they go with the accepted Jewish version? I mean God did entrust them with the Old Testament/Tanakh, why couldn’t the RCC trust it the way it was?

Look inside any catholic church and you’ll get a good idea.

Yawn-so stereotypical-please come up with something ORIGINAL! I’ve heard this stuff so many times that it’s trite- protestants have been saying this stuff since Luther. Didn’t John say that “God is Love”? I don’t hear much of that scripture being touted here- too bad

 

[bankerdavid]

With all due respect it is NOT ambiguous. Even in the link you posted to Wikipedia in all the major groups, except the RCC the second commandment is against idols.

Also with many Jewish friends, and let’s not forget the Tanakh, or OT was given to the Jews, and they will ALL tell you that the 2nd commandment is against idols. They were sooooo much against idols in Jesus day that when Pontius Pilate arrived in Palestine for his new post of governor a riot erupted because he walked up the temple mount with eagles emblazoned on his flags!

It is true that the RCC “hid” the 2nd commandment to make idols in the worship places and services more palatable to the masses. Idols were never allowed to be a part of formal worship, there was to be no idols or images directing worship of the faithful either depicting the true God or any false gods.

Here is the rendering of the 10 commandments from the Jewish historian Josephus: “Antiquities of the Jews, Book 3 chapter 5”

“5. The first commandment teaches us that there is but one God, and that we ought to worship him only. The second commands us not to make the image of any living creature to worship it. The third, that we must not swear by God in a false matter. The fourth, that we must keep the seventh day, by resting from all sorts of work. The fifth, that we must honor our parents. The sixth that we must abstain from murder. The seventh that we must not commit adultery. The eighth, that we must not be guilty of theft. The ninth, that we must not bear false witness. The tenth, that we must not admit of the desire of any thing that is another’s.”

I guess Jesus was a sinner, then.