changing attitudes

[Cavaradossi]

Cav-

The last time you issued a challenge, you simply said that I haven’t actually changed my position. So, if I say everything you just wrote, what’s to prevent you from simply saying, “You didn’t really mean it” again this time?

Look, YOUR position (which may not even be that of the rest of the EO community) is that Catholics are heretics. Not formal heretics, perhaps, but material heretics at the very least. Our pouring baptisms aren’t even valid in your opinion, so we may not actually be Christians at all.

The whole idea of the papacy is abhorrent to you, and the Pope is at the center of the whole mess that you reject. For all the lip service you EO give to the Bishop of Rome about “primacy of honor”, you don’t ACTUALLY “honor” him at all. Why should you? He’s a heretic, and the head heretic at that.

Filoque? Heresy. Immaculate Conception? Heresy. Papal infallibility? Heresy.

YOU are in the one, true Church. We’re not even close to being in communion with your Patriarchs.

So, if the Pope is not leading all of his adherents straight to hell by his errors, then exactly what is your understanding of how the salvation of a billion unbaptized Roman Catholics will be achieved? And what is the fate of the billions who have died in the past thousand years separated from true Orthodoxy?

Who am I to limit the mercy of God? Roman Catholics used even to believe that at death, people might have an angel minister to them during their last breath to bring them into the Church if they were in schism or heresy. Surely, I do believe that Roman Catholicism adheres to certain erroneous positions, and that these positions are an impediment to the spiritual life, just as you believe that Orthodoxy holds to certain erroneous positions which are an impediment to the spiritual life. Why do you take offense if we do not recognize your baptisms as dispensing the grace which is available only to the Church? Should Lutherans or Anglicans take the same offense when faithful Roman Catholics tell them that their Eucharist, priesthood, and confession are invalid? But that is not to make judgment upon whether any of them can be saved.

 

[dronald]

Many non-Catholic Christians objected when Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran during a visit to a mosque several years ago. However, in showing respect for Islam’s scriptures, the Holy Father was following the advice of one of the greatest evangelists of all time, the Apostle Paul, who described his own approach to inter-faith dialogue in these words:

1 Corinthians 9:19-23
19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Your quoted chapter 9 is surrounded by chapters 8 and 10 which Paul claims that one should not take part in Religious rituals if it can cause your brother to stumble.

Specifically in chapter 10 Paul says:

27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.

28 But if someone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice, " then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience

So I believe in not kissing Qur’ans as the Pope of the Catholic Church as long as he knew it was a Qur’an.

 

[Efnouti_Nai_Nan]

Many non-Catholic Christians objected when Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran during a visit to a mosque several years ago

Your Pope kissed the Quran?!

I thought Catholics were Christians like us? We do not do that, just like Muslims will never kiss the Holy Bible. A lot of them won’t even touch it, and will not allow it around them in any way.

I do not know for sure what would happen, but I imagine any Christian of our church who would do that would be excommunicated,maybe anathematized according to our history which shows these punishments for people who draw others away from the faith. I am shocked that Catholics are not the same.

We have lived with Muslims for a lot more time than the Catholics. Maybe more exposure is needed for the Catholics to realize that there are other ways to appeal to Muslims. Every Christian of the Orthodox faith in Egypt knows Muslims converted to Christianity, without kissing the Quran.

 

[MartinJordan]

Your Pope kissed the Quran?!

I thought Catholics were Christians like us? We do not do that, just like Muslims will never kiss the Holy Bible. A lot of them won’t even touch it, and will not allow it around them in any way.

I do not know for sure what would happen, but I imagine any Christian of our church who would do that would be excommunicated,maybe anathematized according to our history which shows these punishments for people who draw others away from the faith. I am shocked that Catholics are not the same.

We have lived with Muslims for a lot more time than the Catholics. Maybe more exposure is needed for the Catholics to realize that there are other ways to appeal to Muslims. Every Christian of the Orthodox faith in Egypt knows Muslims converted to Christianity, without kissing the Quran.

He also kisses the ground when he arrives in a country, regardless of the beliefs of the people who live there.

MJ

 

[Randy_Carson]

Your Pope kissed the Quran?!

I thought Catholics were Christians like us? We do not do that, just like Muslims will never kiss the Holy Bible. A lot of them won’t even touch it, and will not allow it around them in any way.

I do not know for sure what would happen, but I imagine any Christian of our church who would do that would be excommunicated,maybe anathematized according to our history which shows these punishments for people who draw others away from the faith. I am shocked that Catholics are not the same.

We have lived with Muslims for a lot more time than the Catholics. Maybe more exposure is needed for the Catholics to realize that there are other ways to appeal to Muslims. Every Christian of the Orthodox faith in Egypt knows Muslims converted to Christianity, without kissing the Quran.

This was during the war in Iraq, and in an interview with Patriarch Raphael I Bidawid, the spiritual leader of about 600,000 Catholics of the Chaldean rite, most of them living in Iraq, the Patriarch said this:

Q: At what point are preparations for a papal visit to Iraq?

A: It is known that Pope John Paul II has often voiced a desire to make a pilgrimage in the footsteps of Abraham, the common father of Jews, Christians, and Muslims. For the Pope, Abraham is a figure who helps the unity of believers to overcome political divisions. On May 14th I was received by the Pope, together with a delegation composed of the Shi’ite imam of Khadum mosque and the Sunni president of the council of administration of the Iraqi Islamic Bank. There was also a representative of the Iraqi ministry of religion. I renewed our invitation to the Pope, because his visit would be for us a grace from heaven. It would confirm the faith of Christians and prove the Pope’s love for the whole of humanity in a country which is mainly Muslim.

At the end of the audience the Pope bowed to the Muslim holy book, the Qu’ran, presented to him by the delegation, and he kissed it as a sign of respect. The photo of that gesture has been shown repeatedly on Iraqi television and it demonstrates that the Pope is not only aware of the suffering of the Iraqi people, he has also great respect for Islam.

catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=10415

This is an old story treated thoughtfully here:

JP2 And The Quran
by Jimmy Akin
jimmyakin.com/2006/04/jp2_and_the_qur.html

 

[GaryTaylor]

Your Pope kissed the Quran?!

I thought Catholics were Christians like us? We do not do that, just like Muslims will never kiss the Holy Bible. A lot of them won’t even touch it, and will not allow it around them in any way.

I do not know for sure what would happen, but I imagine any Christian of our church who would do that would be excommunicated,maybe anathematized according to our history which shows these punishments for people who draw others away from the faith. I am shocked that Catholics are not the same.

We have lived with Muslims for a lot more time than the Catholics. Maybe more exposure is needed for the Catholics to realize that there are other ways to appeal to Muslims. Every Christian of the Orthodox faith in Egypt knows Muslims converted to Christianity, without kissing the Quran.

Perhaps,

Its written that whoever forgives little, loves little. May the Lord strengthen us. You cannot love God and not love your neighbor. Can’t see how the respect can be avoided. Even in the strictest understanding, it may be debated you can hate the sin, but not the sinner.

We have lived with Muslims for a lot more time than the Catholics.

OK, but for example.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.nd.edu%2Fcontendingmodernities%2F2014%2F03%2F07%2Fa-muslim-response-to-pope-francis-apostolic-exhortation-evangelii-gaudium%2F&ei=5qKiVPnSHomuggTsnIDoDw&usg=AFQjCNFaz7lb5soid_J2lTopenJfSWEYng

 

[Efnouti_Nai_Nan]

Perhaps,

Its written that whoever forgives little, loves little. May the Lord strengthen us. You cannot love God and not love your neighbor. Can’t see how the respect can be avoided. Even in the strictest understanding, it may be debated you can hate the sin, but not the sinner.

I’m sorry, but I don’t know what any of this means. Who is saying anything about not forgiving the Muslims? They attack our churches and our monasteries and we never do anything to them. We know this is how it is for Christians in the world. No one alive today knows more about practicing Christ’s forgiveness model than the Christians in the Middle East and Africa. So I don’t know what you mean.

OK, but for example.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.nd.edu%2Fcontendingmodernities%2F2014%2F03%2F07%2Fa-muslim-response-to-pope-francis-apostolic-exhortation-evangelii-gaudium%2F&ei=5qKiVPnSHomuggTsnIDoDw&usg=AFQjCNFaz7lb5soid_J2lTopenJfSWEYng

OK, yes, the Muslims will treat your Pope and your church a lot better than ours. I don’t know what to say. I cannot read things abaout the Quran calling for religious tolerance seriously.

 

[Randy_Carson]

OK, yes, the Muslims will treat your Pope and your church a lot better than ours.

If true, that’s interesting. And why do suppose this would be the case?

 

[Efnouti_Nai_Nan]

You do not speak Arabic. Islam can be presented in the best way for people who have never felt the pressure of it, and can only know it from what Muslims decide to show. But for some Muslims, they know there is no point to try to do that to Christians in their area who already know them and already speak their language. To deal with the Pope of Rome is like a foreign leader, but the Egyptian Christians are openly talked about as a problem in Egypt. It is a problem that we exist on what these people think is Muslim land, I guess. It is not the same kind of problem that Christians exist in Christians land, because it has not become Islamic yet. If it happens in the future, you have the same problem.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m sorry, but I don’t know what any of this means. Who is saying anything about not forgiving the Muslims? They attack our churches and our monasteries and we never do anything to them. We know this is how it is for Christians in the world. No one alive today knows more about practicing Christ’s forgiveness model than the Christians in the Middle East and Africa. So I don’t know what you mean.

OK, yes, the Muslims will treat your Pope and your church a lot better than ours. I don’t know what to say. I cannot read things abaout the Quran calling for religious tolerance seriously.

Its how we all as Christians are to conduct ourselves and per scripture, and as I see it thats how the Pope is conducting himself. I’m sorry also as I seem to get the impression you understand another way to treat these peoples as you draw the conclusion you have a longer history of dealing with them. I don’t see any need to contend this, however, you disagree with the way the Pope is interacting, but no alternative is given. After all how could there be as they follow one gospel.

 

[Efnouti_Nai_Nan]

Its how we all as Christians are to conduct ourselves and per scripture, and as I see it thats how the Pope is conducting himself. I’m sorry also as I seem to get the impression you understand another way to treat these peoples as you draw the conclusion you have a longer history of dealing with them. I don’t see any need to contend this, however, you disagree with the way the Pope is interacting, but no alternative is given. After all how could there be as they follow one gospel.

What does this mean? “After all how could there be as they all follow one gospel”?

I do not mean to speak against your Pope ever. We like him. He has been good to Pope Tawadros, like a brother. But I was shocked that your other Pope kissed the Quran, because I never heard of any Christian doing that. That’s all I meant. I am sorry if I have offended you somehow.

 

[dronald]

Its how we all as Christians are to conduct ourselves and per scripture, and as I see it thats how the Pope is conducting himself. I’m sorry also as I seem to get the impression you understand another way to treat these peoples as you draw the conclusion you have a longer history of dealing with them. I don’t see any need to contend this, however, you disagree with the way the Pope is interacting, but no alternative is given. After all how could there be as they follow one gospel.

Being charitable to Muslims by all means is not what is being discussed. Of course we must be loving to Muslims.

Kissing Qur’ans is out of the picture; especially if you’re a Pope. I wonder if Saint John of Damascas would have kissed a Qur’an?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Being charitable to Muslims by all means is not what is being discussed. Of course we must be loving to Muslims.

Kissing Qur’ans is out of the picture; especially if you’re a Pope. I wonder if Saint John of Damascas would have kissed a Qur’an?

What about washing the feet of a Muslim woman during the Maundy Thursday liturgy?

 

[dronald]

What about washing the feet of a Muslim woman during the Maundy Thursday liturgy?

That’s to be commended.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well I don’t pretend to be the most knowledgeable on what is respectful for a Pope to do in regards to interfaith dialogue with Islam. We should get more advice from all those who have much experience, we need it here in the USA. So, how successful have you been and whats the plan?