Changing Churches (AKA Changing Rites) - Dialog and Debate

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Let me get this straight, if someone has Ruthenian heritage and their ancestors came to the US in the 19th century, and because their ancestor got married to a Latin rite Catholic woman or they moved to an area where a Ruthenian church wasn’t available, they (4 generations afterwards) are still considered canonically Ruthenian?
Yes.
Does it make a difference if one of the intervening generations worshipped as methodists or not at all?
An excellent question.

Protestants are (normally) automatically ascribed to the Latin rite, if the question does not come up.
It seems like a real quirk, which really doesn’t make sense.
I agree.

If I am not mistaken, the Ruthenian church/Pittsburgh Metropolia has about 100,000 persons across the USA these days. Somewheere I read that at least 300,000 migrated from the Hungarian kingdom over a few decades (hard to believe, but I did read that somewhere) at the end of the 19th century and into the 20th century.

Even allowing for the massive ‘defections’ to Orthodoxy the metropolia had some 240,000 members by the 1970’s, even allowing for losses into the Latin rite. Every generation since has seen the sons as well as the daughters marrying out into the Latin church at an accelerated rate. There could easily be 500,000 (canonically Ruthenian) Roman Catholics (descended through the male line), most of whom vaguely know of “Russian” great-grandparents who used to have a Christmas in January!

It’s a huge problem for active Ruthenian priests who are trying to reconnect with the large number of Ruthenian families out there and grow the congregations.

Michael
 
Helllo brother Marduk,
If it’s innocently violated, it NOT A SIN. You were a Catholic so long yet do not realize this?!!:confused:
Did I not state “…before you tell me that his ignorance mitigates his culpability…” ? I am not as dumb as all that. I am fully aware of the ignorance escape clause, that’s just not the point. The example was to show how unevenly applied such a rule actually is.

My position is the rules are unnecessary and applying them is ridiculous. Some Eparchies will make an interested candidate wait 3 years before transferring. That’s a hell of a burden when one lives two calendars.

How does one who lives a life of a Byzantine deliberately deal with the fact that they didn’t bother duplicating their Holy days? Go to confession?

Confessions are only valid if the person is sorry for the sin, so that’s just no good if the person realizes how ridiculous it is to be burdened with the complications of following two calendars: the one they want to follow and the one they are leaving behind!

It’s nothing but a legalistic obsession, insisting someone follow those rules is Pharisaical.
And BTW, the Ecumenical Councils and the Apostolic Canons enjoin excommunication on those who did not keep the prescribed fasts.

Blessings
This is where I really take issue.

If the person is registered in a parish, and follows that parishes Typicon, that person is not violating the Apostolic Canons. Attributing a sin to this because of a bureaucratic technicality is particularly egregious. People should earnestly (and joyfully) follow the calendar of the parish they worship in and not worry about it.

We would be doing a lot of people a favor by not pointing out their obligations to the Latin church when they go east. They should be more able to make this transition with a clear conscience and a fruitfully happy heart.

Michael
 
Yes.

Especially when one thinks about the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of people who innocently violated this principle.

I had a friend at my old Byz Catholic parish that spent his entire adulthood in the Ruthenian church and was completely unaware that he was not Byzantine.

He was married there, and his children were baptized there. He was very involved, a model parishioner! Only a few years ago he learned that he was not ‘canonical’, and boy was he hurt! I suppose that means his kids were not canonical too!

He never knew that he was supposed to have honored the Latin calendar all his life.

Now before you tell me that his ignorance mitigates his culpability, I will tell you right now that the whole concept is unnecessary. Canonical enrollment is nothing more than a form of church bookkeeping. As soon as it becomes a cause of sin, it is a practice that has lost it’s purpose.

I am reminded of something we have all read:
“The law entered in so that transgression might increase”

But unlike God’s Law forbidding the fruit of that certain tree, this is a law made by bureaucrats in brocade. The divisions between rite are artificial in an institutional way.

This would not have happened in the early church, one would travel to a new area and deal with the change in liturgy and the change in calendar. No sin incurred, that’s just how it is.

As one who has lived as a Roman Catholic in a Byzantine parish, I can say with certainty that it is so difficult as to be detrimental to ones spiritual growth, one must actually cultivate an obsession to comply, and Byzantine parishes don’t distribute Latin calendars as a convenience!

Nor do Latin parishes distribute Byzantine calendars. Not only that, it is fairly certain that most (actual) Ruthenians in the United States are worshipping in latin parishes (if they still worship at all) some for generations (again an artificial construct) and might not even realize that the are not Latins themselves. This means that they (or their parents/grandparents/predecessors) started to live as latins without regard to their own church’s canonical requirements. Most going to their graves unaware that some kind of “sin” has occured!

The church exists as a means of salvation, not as an excuse for condemnation. This is especially egregious in light of eastern spirituality, splitting hairs over Holy Days is a foreign concept, what room for economy?

It is all well and good to boast of being able to partake of sacraments in any Catholic church of any rite. But the dark side is that if one begins to live that life in another church, they are likely to be ‘technically’ considered sinners.

It’s just plain ridiculous.
I don’t your friend not knowing about the requirement to follow the Latin Rite Liturgical Calendar constitute a serious sin especially mortal since mortal requires 3 requirements, 1. Grave matter 2. Full acknowledgement 3. Consent of the Will.
 
Let me ask you this here, real life scenario.

Ukrainian Catholic mum has a child out of wedlock to a protestant man, and the child is baptised Ukrainian. Subsequently (when the child is 6) she gets married to a Latin rite man, and adopts the Latin rite and moves down south where no Ukrainian churches can be found.

Child grows up attending Latin rite, gets married to a Latin rite woman, and the subsequent child is baptized in the Latin Rite.

Is the child actually Ukrainian, and how about that child’s progeny?
 
Let me ask you this here, real life scenario.

Ukrainian Catholic mum has a child out of wedlock to a protestant man, and the child is baptised Ukrainian.
To clarify, it does not matter where the child was baptized, the child can only be Ukrainian Catholic (assuming baptism under the age of 14) following his unmarried mother’s affiliation.
Subsequently (when the child is 6) she gets married to a Latin rite man, and adopts the Latin rite and moves down south where no Ukrainian churches can be found.
Mom could have chosen with the wedding or subsequent to it to change to her husband’s Church. If it was noted at the wedding or later (before the child’s 14th birthday), then mom and child both become Latin. If it wasn’t noted, they are presumed Ukrainian still. If I recall correctly, the canons require 2 witnesses and a notation for it to be official. It would be a simple process to have it properly noted for mom as she may switch to her husband’s Church at any time in the marriage. If it wasn’t corrected before the child turned 14, the child would have to enter a change request of his own and his would be a simple but formal request.
Child grows up attending Latin rite, gets married to a Latin rite woman, and the subsequent child is baptized in the Latin Rite.
If they did not state otherwise, the child follows his father who is still Ukrainian at the time of the baptism.
Is the child actually Ukrainian, and how about that child’s progeny?
If the child is under the age of 14, he will switch when dad corrects his paperwork. If over 14, he would have to put in his own paperwork. Same applies to *his *future children. If he doesn’t get it corrected at some point in time either by having it noted that his children are baptized into the Latin Church or that he has switched (before their 14th birthdays) the process will recur until someone stops the cycle.
 
I don’t your friend not knowing about the requirement to follow the Latin Rite Liturgical Calendar constitute a serious sin especially mortal since mortal requires 3 requirements, 1. Grave matter 2. Full acknowledgement 3. Consent of the Will.
Then the way to proceed is for priests and bishops to not inform the person at all, and they can be happy in their new parish homes.

This is apparently what happens most of the time, opinions from internet geeks like us notwithstanding.
 
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