Changing our culture of death

[Viki63]

Since it is now clear beyond a doubt that life begins at conception, and it is only a matter of time until Roe vs Wade is overturned, we might want to give some thought to the response to this event. (Okay, it may be years, but it’s inevitable, just as the outlawing of slavery was, even though it took decades.)

The people who are prochoice will be devastated, and feel that they are being forced to accept an unjust situation, that is being forced to carry babies to term. Pro-life people don’t see it that way, of course, but my point is that if we work toward preparing the culture to accept it, it may go easier.

One way to do that is to teach girls assertiveness skills, so they can say no to unwanted sexual attentions, by dates or even husbands. Or better job skills, so women can avoid needing to choose prostitution. And working to increase the acceptance of adoption.

After the Civil War, Reconstruction would have gone much smoother if Lincoln had still been alive, since he advocated charity for all and malice toward none. We could take a page from his book and prepare our society for the change we see coming.

.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The people who are prochoice will be devastated, and feel that they are being forced to accept an unjust situation, that is being forced to carry babies to term.

(Okay, it may be years, but it’s inevitable, just as the outlawing of slavery was, even though it took decades.)

Those people who will be devastated will in their mind believe they are slaves and not equal or free. And the issue is, they also have the right to dissent in freedom of speech and conscience and of their own body and mind. So goes the story, however we have to mitigate the wanton killing for sure, and I think we can all admit that? I also think we have to admit these abortion and emergency situations will continue to exist and the wanton illegal abortion industry also inspired Roe vs Wade, thus a part of the need that will continue, namely legal abortion.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So let me add, the thinking is to reconcile rights which appear opposed and very personal. So we have a difficult and delicate conversation. And lots on emotion and rightfully so as life and death would call for that. The right to life of the unborn as opposed to the above post. Should be no wonder the conversation been on-going for 50 years.

 

[Just_Lurking]

If we finally acknowledge that the life of an unborn child outweighs the right to bodily integrity of the mother, the next logical step is to acknowledge that the life of a person needing an organ donation outweighs the right to bodily integrity of a corpse. That is, we should legislate (not through the Supreme Court but through the House and Senate) mandatory organ donation upon death.

This will have the side effect of mitigating the pro-choice side’s charge that the pro-life side is anti-woman (e.g., using terms like “misogyny” and “slut shaming”) since this new law will apply equally to men and women that have died.

 

[GEddie]

If we finally acknowledge that the life of an unborn child outweighs the right to bodily integrity of the mother, the next logical step is to acknowledge that the life of a person needing an organ donation outweighs the right to bodily integrity of a corpse. That is, we should legislate (not through the Supreme Court but through the House and Senate) mandatory organ donation upon death.

This will have the side effect of mitigating the pro-choice side’s charge that the pro-life side is anti-woman (e.g., using terms like “misogyny” and “slut shaming”) since this new law will apply equally to men and women that have died.

If such a law is passed, I am emigrating forever!

 

[StephieNorthCo]

This is a complex issue that you can either will to be simple, or acknowledge that each persons mindset isn’t the same. Yesterday, one of the politico pundits said something to the effect of “well, he (person x) thinks it’s good to force a woman to carry some rapists baby to term” as though that were the greatest crime possible. With that as a mindset, is it any wonder we are where we are? I can see both sides of that, and, frankly, I don’t know where I’d be if that happened to me. I know I’d be praying A LOT.

I don’t think it is possible to legislate morality, when the ones doing the legislation aren’t squeeky clean. I’m tempted to vote for (insert your favorite dead person here).

Blessings,
Stephie

 

[Lynxdk]

Since it is now clear beyond a doubt that life begins at conception, and it is only a matter of time until Roe vs Wade is overturned, we might want to give some thought to the response to this event. (Okay, it may be years, but it’s inevitable, just as the outlawing of slavery was, even though it took decades.)

This is a false premise. It may be clear to Catholics who believe such as yourself, and many heretical American Christians… but that’s neither here nor there.

Life began the same way All life begins, in this Universe, The Earth began to cool, The autotrophs began to drool, etc, on and so forth…

If you’re talking about when a fetus is imbued with a Soul, well, you’ve got a lot more arguing to do to resolve That question. =)

 

[Lynxdk]

One way to do that is to teach girls assertiveness skills, so they can say no to unwanted sexual attentions, by dates or even husbands. Or better job skills, so women can avoid needing to choose prostitution. And working to increase the acceptance of adoption.

This is also a Misogynistic Preconception. Women and girls DO NOT need to be “taught” Assertiveness. Although it is a very useful skill that everyone should learn.

If Anything, Males need to be “taught” or Learn by proper examples, how Not to behave like pure, animalistic, dominants they often feel their genes and hormones give them the right to behave, in such disrespectful fashion, towards Daughters of God, Made in God’s image.

 

[edwest2]

Since it is now clear beyond a doubt that life begins at conception, and it is only a matter of time until Roe vs Wade is overturned, we might want to give some thought to the response to this event. (Okay, it may be years, but it’s inevitable, just as the outlawing of slavery was, even though it took decades.)

The people who are prochoice will be devastated, and feel that they are being forced to accept an unjust situation, that is being forced to carry babies to term. Pro-life people don’t see it that way, of course, but my point is that if we work toward preparing the culture to accept it, it may go easier.

One way to do that is to teach girls assertiveness skills, so they can say no to unwanted sexual attentions, by dates or even husbands. Or better job skills, so women can avoid needing to choose prostitution. And working to increase the acceptance of adoption.

After the Civil War, Reconstruction would have gone much smoother if Lincoln had still been alive, since he advocated charity for all and malice toward none. We could take a page from his book and prepare our society for the change we see coming.

.

Good ideas. I think the first question is: Who is teaching our children?

The media, meaning TV and movies which model immoral behavior?

The internet, which has its good and very bad side?

Colleges and Universities?

Where does Catholic teaching fit into all of us? The secular media is not providing good role models for the most part. Yet, compared to an hour in Church a week, we keep getting the wrong messages, sometimes without even realizing it.

And dating? Who teaches boys or girls that?

amazon.com/Find-Your-Soulmate-Without-Losing/dp/0983092303

I know there is a broad range of people reading this. Some who have sacrificed a lot and carried on solid teaching to their children and grandchildren, while others may be confused. We need to reach the confused, the misinformed and those who were taught, directly or indirectly, that being on The Pill and dating whoever was fine.

Finally, marriage is not a competition. It is not about about who has the most power. It’s like sleeping with one eye open, waiting for your spouse to do or say even one thing that triggers the divorce alarm. It’s a partnership, and that means really taking the time to get to know each other. From experience, those couples who can enjoy being themselves, and enjoy their time together no matter what they may be doing, are good candidates. No, I don’t mean both of you are going to like all the same things but you must have shared values, shared beliefs and tell each other what you expect from marriage before the ceremony. Like being single, married life will have its ups and downs, and like single life, it is hard.

But too many have forgotten who we are and how we got from true love to what passes for that today.

amazon.com/Extreme-Makeover-Transformed-Conformed-Culture/dp/1586175610

And for guys:

amazon.com/Be-Man-Becoming-God-Created/dp/1586174037/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1456695373&sr=1-2&keywords=be+a+man+god+wants+you+to+be

Ed

 

[Viki63]

?
Has there been some sort of study/statement on this recently that I missed?

Perhaps so. It is recognized by reputable scientists worldwide, and only obscured by those who are confused or have an ax to grind.
Here is a quote and a link to the page

"Based on universally accepted scientific criteria, a new cell, the human zygote, comes into existence at the moment of sperm-egg fusion, an event that occurs in less than a
second. Upon formation, the zygote immediately initiates a complex sequence of
events that establish the molecular conditions required for continued embryonic
development. The behavior of the zygote is radically unlike that of either sperm
or egg separately and is characteristic of a human organism. Thus, the scientific
evidence supports the conclusion that a zygote is a human organism and that the
life of a new human being commences at a scientifically well defined “moment of
conception.” This conclusion is objective, consistent with the factual evidence, and
independent of any specific ethical, moral, political, or religious view of human life
or of human embryos. "

The question is no longer when does life begin, but what do we do about it?

.
.

 

[Viki63]

If we finally acknowledge that the life of an unborn child outweighs the right to bodily integrity of the mother, . …

Does the life of any child outweigh the right to bodily integrity of the mother? Most mothers would instinctively give their lives for their children, once they meet them.
But if they are to be weighed, they should have equal rights.

The time for a woman to assert her right to bodily integrity is before she consents to intercourse. If she doesn’t consent, of course she has the right to defend herself.

.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Does the life of any child outweigh the right to bodily integrity of the mother? Most mothers would instinctively give their lives for their children, once they meet them.
But if they are to be weighed, they should have equal rights.

The time for a woman to assert her right to bodily integrity is before she consents to intercourse. If she doesn’t consent, of course she has the right to defend herself.

Are you saying that women who have been raped have the right to an abortion?

 

[edwest2]

This is also a Misogynistic Preconception. Women and girls DO NOT need to be “taught” Assertiveness. Although it is a very useful skill that everyone should learn.

If Anything, Males need to be “taught” or Learn by proper examples, how Not to behave like pure, animalistic, dominants they often feel their genes and hormones give them the right to behave, in such disrespectful fashion, towards Daughters of God, Made in God’s image.

Misogynistic? Pleeeeeez. The old ‘men are the eternal enemy and women the eternal victims,’ Marxist class warfare I heard from the radical feminists starting in the 1970s.

I lived through a time period where young men and young ladies were taught mutual respect and how to interact together, We were both on the same page. But these loud, divide and conquer voices demanded that their false preaching be heard: Men were “male chauvenist pigs.” That’s us, guys. We are the enemy.

They were not saying anything that reflects the truth as given by the Church. They created confusion and taught young women that ‘you are dominant, you are in charge and if a man does the slightest thing, dump him and move on to the next.’ Men are OK for sex if you want it, but relationships don’t matter unless you want it.

True love has been replaced by female chauvenist pigs.

Sorry, but that is 100% false thinking.

And how many radical feminists are protesting strip clubs, topless bars and porn? Women have never been more exploited.

Ed

 

[openmind77]

Since it is now clear beyond a doubt that life begins at conception, and it is only a matter of time until Roe vs Wade is overturned, we might want to give some thought to the response to this event. (Okay, it may be years, but it’s inevitable, just as the outlawing of slavery was, even though it took decades.)…

.

Only thing that will change is that women who now fly from Texas to California to get an abortion, may need to fly to China or India to do the same. Actually an abortion in India should be fairly cheap, the difference in cost of the abortion may make up for the difference in airfare.

Of course poor women will always be the ones still stuck without any choice - they cannot fly anywhere to save their lives. Maybe the Christ will return sooner to save them from their state of helplessness.

 

[Viki63]

Are you saying that women who have been raped have the right to an abortion?

Women who’ve been raped have the right to take medication to prevent conception; it wouldn’t be an abortion. Catholic hospitals have this figured out.

 

[Viki63]

Only thing that will change is that women who now fly from Texas to California to get an abortion, may need to fly to China or India to do the same. Actually an abortion in India should be fairly cheap, the difference in cost of the abortion may make up for the difference in airfare.

Of course poor women will always be the ones still stuck without any choice - they cannot fly anywhere to save their lives. Maybe the Christ will return sooner to save them from their state of helplessness.

You’re forgetting the principle that what is legal is accepted by more people. Boys ((or parents) who think nothing of bullying their girlfriends or daughters into an abortion will have less freedom to bully. In my experience, many women wouldn’t get an abortion if they weren’t bullied or threatened into it, by threats of loss of affection, loss of income, or a place to live.
Families aren’t going to send their fifteen year old daughters to China, when they can send them to a nearby maternity home and arrange an adoption. Surely a preferable outcome for all.
Plenty of poor women are getting abortions, paid for by their boyfriends, pimps or parents.

.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Women who’ve been raped have the right to take medication to prevent conception; it wouldn’t be an abortion. Catholic hospitals have this figured out.

What if conception has already occurred at that point? Is the woman forced to carry the pregnancy to term at the expense of her bodily integrity?

 

[StephieNorthCo]

What if conception has already occurred at that point? Is the woman forced to carry the pregnancy to term at the expense of her bodily integrity?

One would need to define bodily integrity. If the mother’s life is in danger, and the intent is to preserve her life, not kill the child, that’s one thing. If the intent is to kill the human child, that’s another.

I cannot think of why bodily integrity, as I understand the term normally would come into play as an operative word/term in a typical pregnancy, regardless of how it was initiated.

Blessings,
Stephie

 

[Just_Lurking]

One would need to define bodily integrity. If the mother’s life is in danger, and the intent is to preserve her life, not kill the child, that’s one thing. If the intent is to kill the human child, that’s another.

The intent is to remove the unborn child from the mother’s womb immediately, regardless of the effect on the child. For the purpose of this question, the woman who is pregnant as the result of rape did not consent to be pregnant, and does not want to be pregnant.

I cannot think of why bodily integrity, as I understand the term normally would come into play as an operative word/term in a typical pregnancy, regardless of how it was initiated.

Bodily integrity is right of a person to make decisions about their own body, even selfish decisions, regardless of how those decisions affect other people. In the case of organ donation, it is the right of a person to insist that his/her organs are buried in the ground even though that will result in the death of another living person who is in need of those organs.

 

[Rau]

What if conception has already occurred at that point? Is the woman forced to carry the pregnancy to term at the expense of her bodily integrity?

It is not that the Woman is forced to do something - more what morality demands she may not do. On what justifiable basis would the woman attack the innocent child, who in some sense is also a victim, with intent to kill?