Changing the definition of marriage devalues my marriage!

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I don’t. But I think the Vatican has advised me that I’m wrong on that.

I’m not the only one making this error. Link explains:

lifesitenews.com/news/uks-most-important-catholic-bishop-endorses-gay-civil-unions/
Civil unions are acceptable if they don’t specifically apply to homosexual couples. In other words if the same civil union was open to anyone who wanted it regardless of whether they had a sexual relationship with the other person, it would be acceptable at least from a moral standpoint. For instance if two people with a strictly platonic relationship such as a brother and sister wanted to live together and make the ties that are associated with the civil union they would be able to as well.

This would basically just make the civil union an easier way in which two people regardless of the kind of their relationship could choose to tie themselves together without having to go and get a lawyer themselves to set up all the paperwork in order to get it done.

The Church has got behind proposals like this, and will do so in the future. The problem is when homosexual groups decide its only acceptable if the civil union specifically applies to homosexual couples, or couples with a sexual relationship.
 
The grand majority of people for gay marriage aren’t seeking the Church’s approval. They only desire the approval of the government. The government already allows divorce and remarriage, despite the fact that the Catholic Church does not approve of that. Therefore, what the Catholic church does and does not approve of has no say in what is and is not legal. From a legal (seperation of church and state) standpoint, there is no real reason why gay marriage can’t be legal.

Besides, revolving door marriages and the drive through Vegas marriages given by Elvis impersonators cheapen marriage far more than gay marriage ever will.

The only way to have any ground to stand on when facing against gay marriage is to also try and outlaw divorce. Which I haven’t seen anybody trying to do.
 
Quoting Odell (I’m new and don’t know how to do so properly):

“My family is the one being attacked and they want to play the victim.”

I’m pretty sure that after SSM is legalized your family will continue to exist. Extending the right to marry and build a legitimate family to lesbians and gays does not cause your marriage and family to disintegrate or tarnish.

The fact that you’re claiming that your family is ‘under attack’ when gays and lesbians cannot marry or legally form a family AT ALL is absurd.
 
The grand majority of people for gay marriage aren’t seeking the Church’s approval. They only desire the approval of the government. The government already allows divorce and remarriage, despite the fact that the Catholic Church does not approve of that. Therefore, what the Catholic church does and does not approve of has no say in what is and is not legal. From a legal (seperation of church and state) standpoint, there is no real reason why gay marriage can’t be legal.

Besides, revolving door marriages and the drive through Vegas marriages given by Elvis impersonators cheapen marriage far more than gay marriage ever will.

The only way to have any ground to stand on when facing against gay marriage is to also try and outlaw divorce. Which I haven’t seen anybody trying to do.
My thoughts exactly!
 
The only way to have any ground to stand on when facing against gay marriage is to also try and outlaw divorce. Which I haven’t seen anybody trying to do.
From the “protect marriage” stance you are absolutely right. I have high respect for people that really want to protect and strengthen marriage on all sides; instead we scapegoat other people and then sit passively while marriage is ravaged from within by high divorce rates, adultery and a whole list of other sins. This has never set well with me.
 
The grand majority of people for gay marriage aren’t seeking the Church’s approval. They only desire the approval of the government. The government already allows divorce and remarriage, despite the fact that the Catholic Church does not approve of that. Therefore, what the Catholic church does and does not approve of has no say in what is and is not legal. From a legal (seperation of church and state) standpoint, there is no real reason why gay marriage can’t be legal.

Besides, revolving door marriages and the drive through Vegas marriages given by Elvis impersonators cheapen marriage far more than gay marriage ever will.

The only way to have any ground to stand on when facing against gay marriage is to also try and outlaw divorce. Which I haven’t seen anybody trying to do.
There is no “separation of church and state” issue. It is not unconstitutional for the people to create laws based on the morality of the people. Much of our criminal codes are based on morality. There are moral reasons (not religious) for respecting marriage as an institution that is founded on the procreative purpose. Because religious institutions are among the last flag-bearers for this peice of moral code, it seems to others that it is only a religion thing. So people worried about Church & State issues incorrectly conclude that Catholics, for example, are pushing their teaching on the rest of the people. For example, the Church isn’t pushing to get the public to agree that marriage is only valid if both parties agree to raise their children in the Catholic faith. That would violate the First Amendment because such a law would endorse Catholicism over other faiths.

To further illustrate my point, the anti-abortion movement may have religious backers, but the laws against abortion come from the collective morality of the democratic people. If your state doesn’t want 16 year olds to have an abortion without their parents’ consent, the people have decided that this is morally wrong. Also, Roe v. Wade was not decided on the grounds that all laws against abortion violate some concept of the separation of Church & State. It was decided on privacy grounds. So those anti-abortion laws, despite coinciding with the teachings of the Catholic Church, are not codified religious doctrine. They were the will of the people, setting a moral standard for themselves. Another example: the crime of theft is not a codification of the Ten Commandments.

Ask an atheist: s/he may tell you that morality is real and doesn’t come from religion or even Natural Law. Therefore, all people in a democracy can legislate morality without violating something like the First Amendment. When that legislation mirrors one religion’s teaching, that doesn’t make it a violation of the First Amendment. So, if the collective morality of the democratic people think there is benefit in granting special privileges and place for the procreative union of man and woman because it’s the foundation of society—that’s “secular morality” that happens to coincide with the teachings of the Church. The Church is aware of this truth about marriage as well as other voters in the union.
 
There is no “separation of church and state” issue. It is not unconstitutional for the people to create laws based on the morality of the people. Much of our criminal codes are based on morality. There are moral reasons (not religious) for respecting marriage as an institution that is founded on the procreative purpose. Because religious institutions are among the last flag-bearers for this peice of moral code, it seems to others that it is only a religion thing. So people worried about Church & State issues incorrectly conclude that Catholics, for example, are pushing their teaching on the rest of the people. For example, the Church isn’t pushing to get the public to agree that marriage is only valid if both parties agree to raise their children in the Catholic faith. That would violate the First Amendment because such a law would endorse Catholicism over other faiths.

To further illustrate my point, the anti-abortion movement may have religious backers, but the laws against abortion come from the collective morality of the democratic people. If your state doesn’t want 16 year olds to have an abortion without their parents’ consent, the people have decided that this is morally wrong. Also, Roe v. Wade was not decided on the grounds that all laws against abortion violate some concept of the separation of Church & State. It was decided on privacy grounds. So those anti-abortion laws, despite coinciding with the teachings of the Catholic Church, are not codified religious doctrine. They were the will of the people, setting a moral standard for themselves. Another example: the crime of theft is not a codification of the Ten Commandments.

Ask an atheist: s/he may tell you that morality is real and doesn’t come from religion or even Natural Law. Therefore, all people in a democracy can legislate morality without violating something like the First Amendment. When that legislation mirrors one religion’s teaching, that doesn’t make it a violation of the First Amendment. So, if the collective morality of the democratic people think there is benefit in granting special privileges and place for the procreative union of man and woman because it’s the foundation of society—that’s “secular morality” that happens to coincide with the teachings of the Church. The Church is aware of this truth about marriage as well as other voters in the union.
Great post 😃
 
Legal recognition of homosexual unions would obscure certain basic moral values and cause a devaluation of the institution of marriage. It would value marriage between only those whom love each other. But love as emotion can be fickle what happens when emotionally you feel that the love is no longer there? Society would tell you to leave. But there is something much deeper to marriage than what society can offer. Redefining marriage would only further make children a curse than a blessing.

An institution devoid of essential reference to factors linked to heterosexuality; for example, procreation and raising children. the concept of marriage would undergo a radical transformation, with grave detriment to the common good.

Not even in a remote analogous sense do homosexual unions fulfil the purpose for which marriage and family deserve specific categorical recognition. On the contrary, there are good reasons for holding that such unions are harmful to the proper development of human society, especially if their impact on society were to increase. And to redefine marriage would only devalue what I have. When society already does a married couple with four kids. Must be catholic!

My family is the one being attacked and they want to play the victim.
That’s one perspective…I found the article here by Justin Cannon to be quite illuminating on this topic [edited]
 
That’s one perspective…I found the article here by Justin Cannon to be quite illuminating on this topic [edited]
For someone whon professes to be ‘Catholic’, why is it you are linking to a non-Catholic web site, which is preaching/teaching that which is anathema to Catholicism and then telling all and sundry you find it “Illuminating”?

Instead of linking to the Catholic Catechism, for instance, or to Papal encyclicals, or to documents written by Church doctors, you link to a source of misinterpretations of the Bible and to a web site which has an obvious ‘agenda’ which is not in line with Catholic doctrine. If you’d bothered to read through this entire thread, you’d find the catholic perspective on this issue plain enough.

You are also posting this link onto other threads which are addressing the homosexuality issue. Why is that?
 
For someone whon professes to be ‘Catholic’, why is it you are linking to a non-Catholic web site, which is preaching/teaching that which is anathema to Catholicism and then telling all and sundry you find it “Illuminating”?

Instead of linking to the Catholic Catechism, for instance, or to Papal encyclicals, or to documents written by Church doctors, you link to a source of misinterpretations of the Bible and to a web site which has an obvious ‘agenda’ which is not in line with Catholic doctrine. If you’d bothered to read through this entire thread, you’d find the catholic perspective on this issue plain enough.

You are also posting this link onto other threads which are addressing the homosexuality issue. Why is that?
I am fully aware of the Catechism’s perspective on this topic. I am also aware that the etymology of words from the original Greek scriptures have often been mis-interpreted by modern translations and have led to all matters of confusion.

Even the CCC (2357) admits this about homosexuality and it’s implications on gay marriage: " its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained" - as we discern and find inclusive and loving ways to respond to our gay brothers and sisters, we will I hope step into an explanation that is more broadly acceptable and aligned with the lived experience of so many Catholics.
 
I am fully aware of the Catechism’s perspective on this topic. I am also aware that the etymology of words from the original Greek scriptures have often been mis-interpreted by modern translations and have led to all matters of confusion.

Even the CCC (2357) admits this about homosexuality and it’s implications on gay marriage: " its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained" - as we discern and find inclusive and loving ways to respond to our gay brothers and sisters, we will I hope step into an explanation that is more broadly acceptable and aligned with the lived experience of so many Catholics.
First up - you didn’t answer my question in my post.

Secondly, if you are fully aware of the Catholic Church’s position on this topic, you’d know it has a Natural Law base. Natural Law underpins Catholicism, does it not? Yet it seems you wish to pull one little brick out of the wall that is a coherent and cogent philosophical doctrine. That’s never going to work, is it?

Thirdly, you have quoted the Catechism very selectively.
You forgot this bit -
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity.
And you gave an incomplete transcription. The full text of what you posted is this -
Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
Notice the reference to Natural Law and to the statements that homosexual acts are “of grave depravity” and “Under no circumstances can they e approved”. Yet, it seems you wish to subvert that doctrine by quoting selectively, by adding your own thoughts which are against catholic doctrine and, quite frankly, put forward in a disengenuous manner.

As for the misinterpretation of original Greek sources is concerned, I take it you are referring to St. Paul? If not, as a self labelled Catholic, you should be.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 he had this to say -
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
When you refer to the supposed ‘confusion’ over the etymology of the words used by St. Paul, you are, of course, referring to the use of the word “homosexual” in translations of his epistles. The word “homosexual” is a fairly recent concoction and was not in use in St. Paul’s day. However, he did use two words that scholars know referred to homosexual practices. The words were malakoi and arsenokoitai. The first word malakoi can be traced all the way ack to Ancient Greece, where it was used perjoratively to describe the passive partner in homosexual sex. The Greek poet Aristophanes used it to mercilessly deride the passive same sex partner. The second word, arsenokoitai is more problematic. It seems to be a noun coined by St. Paul, but could possibly be a word in common usage. Scholars have indicated that it most probably comes from the phrase “meta arsenos koiten gynaikos”, which is used in the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) of Leviticus 20:13, which refers to *“Whoever lies with a man as with a woman” * “they have both done an abomination.”

St. Paul also lead a delegation to Jerusalem to meet with the Apostles concerning the spreading of the Gospels to gentiles and to consider what aspects of the old Law applied to Gentiles. The laws as they pertain to sexual immorality still apply.

A goodly portion of the misinterpretations that are to be found around the Internet are promulgated by those who would wish to subvert Catholic teaching on this subject. You have linked to a typical example.
 
First up - you didn’t answer my question in my post.

Secondly, if you are fully aware of the Catholic Church’s position on this topic, you’d know it has a Natural Law base. Natural Law underpins Catholicism, does it not? Yet it seems you wish to pull one little brick out of the wall that is a coherent and cogent philosophical doctrine. That’s never going to work, is it?

Thirdly, you have quoted the Catechism very selectively.
You forgot this bit -

And you gave an incomplete transcription. The full text of what you posted is this -
Notice the reference to Natural Law and to the statements that homosexual acts are “of grave depravity” and “Under no circumstances can they e approved”. Yet, it seems you wish to subvert that doctrine by quoting selectively, by adding your own thoughts which are against catholic doctrine and, quite frankly, put forward in a disengenuous manner.

As for the misinterpretation of original Greek sources is concerned, I take it you are referring to St. Paul? If not, as a self labelled Catholic, you should be.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 he had this to say -

When you refer to the supposed ‘confusion’ over the etymology of the words used by St. Paul, you are, of course, referring to the use of the word “homosexual” in translations of his epistles. The word “homosexual” is a fairly recent concoction and was not in use in St. Paul’s day. However, he did use two words that scholars know referred to homosexual practices. The words were malakoi and arsenokoitai. The first word malakoi can be traced all the way ack to Ancient Greece, where it was used perjoratively to describe the passive partner in homosexual sex. The Greek poet Aristophanes used it to mercilessly deride the passive same sex partner. The second word, arsenokoitai is more problematic. It seems to be a noun coined by St. Paul, but could possibly be a word in common usage. Scholars have indicated that it most probably comes from the phrase “meta arsenos koiten gynaikos”, which is used in the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) of Leviticus 20:13, which refers to *“Whoever lies with a man as with a woman” * “they have both done an abomination.”

St. Paul also lead a delegation to Jerusalem to meet with the Apostles concerning the spreading of the Gospels to gentiles and to consider what aspects of the old Law applied to Gentiles. The laws as they pertain to sexual immorality still apply.

A goodly portion of the misinterpretations that are to be found around the Internet are promulgated by those who would wish to subvert Catholic teaching on this subject. You have linked to a typical example.
By your response it is clear you agree with the modern word “homosexuality” instead of male prostitutes or perverted sex with young boys as indicated by the original Greek. There is a difference between committed loving relationships and those based on perversions of one sort or another. As to Natural Law the CCC freely admits this is an area where human knowledge is incomplete.
 
By your response it is clear you agree with the modern word “homosexuality” instead of male prostitutes or perverted sex with young boys as indicated by the original Greek. There is a difference between committed loving relationships and those based on perversions of one sort or another. As to Natural Law the CCC freely admits this is an area where human knowledge is incomplete.
By your response it is clear you are not willing to acknowledge the Catholic Church’s position on homosexuality. Your disingenuousness is rather obvious.

Your comment about the Natural Law is also false, as the Catechism states at 1958
The natural law is *immutable *and permanent throughout the variations of history
You have still failed to answer why it is you linked to a web site that is clearly anti-Catholic in what it promotes.
 
By your response it is clear you agree with the modern word “homosexuality” instead of male prostitutes or perverted sex with young boys as indicated by the original Greek. There is a difference between committed loving relationships and those based on perversions of one sort or another.
Another theory is that it was only culturally acceptable to have sex with others who were below your social standing (women, slaves, prostitutes, boys, etc). This adds an almost humorous twist to the discussion on “devalued” marriage since woman had very little value to begin with and were on the same level as slaves and male prostitutes.
As to Natural Law the CCC freely admits this is an area where human knowledge is incomplete.
Can you provide a reference?
 
Another theory is that it was only culturally acceptable to have sex with others who were below your social standing (women, slaves, prostitutes, boys, etc). This adds an almost humorous twist to the discussion on “devalued” marriage since woman had very little value to begin with and were on the same level as slaves and male prostitutes.

Can you provide a reference?
Yes…see: CCC (2357) “…its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained”
 
By your response it is clear you are not willing to acknowledge the Catholic Church’s position on homosexuality. Your disingenuousness is rather obvious.

Your comment about the Natural Law is also false, as the Catechism states at 1958

You have still failed to answer why it is you linked to a web site that is clearly anti-Catholic in what it promotes.
I am quite sincere in my comments - it is you that claim them to be other. You are the one taking liberty with the CCC regarding Natural Law:

1954: Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good.

Since (as 2357 admits) “the psychological genesis remains largely unexplained” the church’s “position” is one of active discernment. While you may prefer a black and white moral position - for anyone to claim that the Church has reached such a position is simply not factually correct.
 
Yes…see: CCC (2357) “…its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained”
The sentence has absolutely no bearing on the permanence of the doctrine. The Church is saying that she doesn’t care what the etiology is and is not. The “lack of [definitive psychological] explanation” has no effect on the truth and stability of the theology.

Remains unexplained.
Remains forbidden.
Got that?
😉
 
The sentence has absolutely no bearing on the permanence of the doctrine. The Church is saying that she doesn’t care what the etiology is and is not. The “lack of [definitive psychological] explanation” has no effect on the truth and stability of the theology.

Remains unexplained.
Remains forbidden.
Got that?
😉
What remains forbidden is prostitution and all forms of sexual perversion. The modern term “homosexuality” and its psychological genesis remains unexplained…that IS the teaching.
 
That’s one perspective…I found the article here by Justin Cannon to be quite illuminating on this topic (inclusiveorthodoxy.org/)
I have reported this post. This poster has been going around to several threads and posting this same link even though she or he has been told that it is contrary to all Catholic teaching.
 
What remains forbidden is prostitution and all forms of sexual perversion. The modern term “homosexuality” and its psychological genesis remains unexplained…that IS the teaching.
Your butchery and twisting of the CCC is not only obvious, it’s not even clever. you take one small phrase about the psychological genesis and try to hang an entire theology on it. it doesn’t work. please stop splattering your anti-Catholic teaching around on CAF.
 
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