Changing the Word of God to be P.C.?

[distracted]

I am troubled by Palm Sunday’s readings in the book Pray Together and in other missals I’ve read. It distinctly changes the words of Scripture! I know the Protesters are going 2 have a field day with this Post, but the evidence is right there in front of us… (unless i am “missing” something?).
Luke 22:14 says Jesus spoke to Peter and warned him that Satan was seeking to “sift you like wheat”. And yet, this week, that has been changed to “sift all of you like wheat”. This is a “protestant-ized rendition” of this scripture, taking away from Peter’s pre-imminence with the Apostles.
Are the publishers of our missals Protestants trying to get their “message” across to us one way or the other???
Please respond if you know anything about this. As for me, i am going to write and complain (and/or call)… Could you please do the same? After all, i may forget to do it (i have a 100,000 things on my mind…& can’t do at this exact moment… ).
Thanks.

 

[distracted]

Something is not right here…

Luke 22:14, the scripture reading for Palm Sunday says that Jesus warned Peter about Satan wanting to “sift you like wheat”. Yet the reading this Palm Sunday says: “…sift all of you like wheat”, which not only changes scripture but takes away from Peter’s pre-imminent role as the Chief Apostle.
Please call the publishers and complain :

After all, if Peter is not the chief Apostle, then where, really, is the Catholic position for having a pope??? (… so their theory goes…).

Thanks.

 

[jmcrae]

Something is not right here…

Luke 22:14, the scripture reading for Palm Sunday says that Jesus warned Peter about Satan wanting to “sift you like wheat”. Yet the reading this Palm Sunday says: “…sift all of you like wheat”, which not only changes scripture but takes away from Peter’s pre-imminent role as the Chief Apostle.
Please call the publishers and complain :

#1-800-635-0622

After all, if Peter is not the chief Apostle, then where, really, is the Catholic position for having a pope??? (… so their theory goes…).

Thanks.

Can you spell out what it is that you are having a problem with?

How does being tested take away from something that St. Peter didn’t even actually receive until several days after the Resurrection? (He received the promise in Matthew 16:18, but he was not actually appointed as Pope until John 21:15-19.)

 

[distracted]

Something is not right here…

One of the readings for Palm Sunday was Luke 22:14.

The original scripture says that Jesus warned Peter that Satan was seeking to have him, to “sift you like wheat”, yet this week’s readings in 2 different missals changes that to “…sift ALL OF YOU like wheat”, which takes away from Peter’s role as chief Apostle (which takes away from the Catholic position for the papacy…).

I am wondering if Protestants are publishing our missals or something???

Please call 1-800-635-0622

and complain about this (unless you have a reasonable explanation??? ). This is the number for publisher of the Pray Together missal (i don’t have the # for the other one).
Thank you.:dts:

 

[Pug]

Distracted, I don’t know what agenda they may have, but the “you” in the Greek is plural in the wheat line. It is singular in the *next *line, where Jesus is praying for thee, meaning Peter specifically.

I would guess the translation is attempting to indicate that a switch from plural to singular is taking place, given that English just has a “you” to work with these days, and doesn’t have a thee/you distinction anymore. It used to be that one could just switch from you to thee in the next line to give the change away. So I’m guessing they did the “all of you” thing to make the switch at least partially visible in modern English.

 

[Pug]

This is basically the same post as your one here. I answered it over there.

 

[mchale]

Umm, I think you mean Luke 22:31, not 14.

In any case, a quick look at the vulgate (My Latin is rusty, but my Greek is non-existent) shows:

ait autem Dominus Simon Simon ecce Satanas expetivit vos ut cribraret sicut triticum

Now, as I said, my Latin is rusty, but I would read the above as…
“Then the Lord said to Simon, 'behold Simon, Satan seeks to have you sifted like wheat”

Now the key word for the sake of this argument is “vos” which is a form of you in latin. Now, vos can either be thought of as a more formal version of address or as a plural. In context, considering the closeness of Peter and Jesus, it seems to me to be a reasonable reading to suggest that you here was meant as a plural.

Now mind you the original text is in Greek, so someone with more knowledge of Greek than me would be needed to suggest if the same sense is in the Greek. That being said, it seems to me, that if the vos was meant in the plural sense, then the “all” is simply added as a clarification of the plural version of the form you in English now is also used for the singular form.

–
Bill

 

[6glargento]

even if the papacy was proven false that would not nessesarally prove protestantism true

 

[lak611]

The verse you are referring to is Luke 22:31. From the NAB, Luke 22:31-32, “Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.”

From the RSV, “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

From the Douay-Rheims, “Luk 22:31 And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.”

From the KJV, “Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.”

From the ESV, Luk 22:31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat,
Luk 22:32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

From the NJB, 31’Simon, Simon! Look, Satan has got his wish to sift you all like wheat;32but I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail, and once you have recovered, you in your turn must strengthen your brothers.

From the CEV, Luk 22:31 Jesus said, “Simon, listen to me! Satan has demanded the right to test each one of you, as a farmer does when he separates wheat from the husks.
Luk 22:32 But Simon, I have prayed that your faith will be strong. And when you have come back to me, help the others.”

Some of the translations say “you” and others say “all of you” in verse 31, but the meaning is the same based on verse 32. In all the translations, Peter is the one who will strengthen his fellow apostles after he has repented and been forgiven of his sin.

 

[nomolos]

I am troubled by Palm Sunday’s readings in the book Pray Together and in other missals I’ve read. It distinctly changes the words of Scripture! I know the Protesters are going 2 have a field day with this Post, but the evidence is right there in front of us… (unless i am “missing” something?).
Luke 22:14 says Jesus spoke to Peter and warned him that Satan was seeking to “sift you like wheat”. And yet, this week, that has been changed to “sift all of you like wheat”. This is a “protestant-ized rendition” of this scripture, taking away from Peter’s pre-imminence with the Apostles.
When I read it before hand I too was confused. Peter was the one Satan was after since Jesus gave him the key to his Kingdom. Any body with military tactical training would go after the leader, that way it would break morale. Wasn’t it mention take the shepherd away and the sheep would scatter?

 

[Fidelis]

The reading is taken right from the Catholic *New Amercan Bible *(NAB). While the Douay-Rheims, for example, renders this passage:

And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

…the NAB has:

“Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.”

The commentary in that Bible notes:

[31] All of you: literally, “you.” The translation reflects the meaning of the Greek text that uses a second person plural pronoun here.

Rendered literally, with the personal pronouns added it would read:

“Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift you [plural; all of you] like wheat, but I have prayed that your [singular; Peter’s] own faith may not fail; and once you [Peter] have turned back, you [Peter] must strengthen your brothers.”

Thus, in no way does this translation take anything away from Peter’s primacy; in fact, it reinforces it.

 

[lak611]

From the Haydock Commentary: "Ver. 31. Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. In these words is expressed both what Satan desired, and what God permitted. Satan desired leave to tempt them, that he might make them fall from their faith in Christ. Almighty God permitted this temptation, this trial, to convince them how weak they were of themselves: he permitted their frailty to be partly overcome, yet so that rising again by his grace, they should be cleansed and purified as wheat when it is sifted: and that shortly after, being strengthened and confirmed by the coming of the Holy Ghost, they might become new men, enabled to stand firm against all the attacks of their greatest adversaries. (Witham)

Ver. 32. That thy faith fail not. The faith of Peter, established by the coming of the Holy Ghost, hath never failed, nor can fail, being built upon a rock, which is Christ himself, and being guided by the spirit of truth, as Christ promised. (John xv. 26. and xvi. 13.) — And thou being once converted, confirm thy brethren, even all the other apostles and bishops, over whom I have made and constituted thee and thy successors the chief head, that such a head being appointed by divine authority, all occasions of schisms and divisions might cease, says St. Jerome. (Witham) — Admire the superabundance of the divine patience. That the disciple might not lose courage, he promised him pardon before he has committed the crime, and restores him again to his apostolic dignity, saying, confirm thy brethren. (St. Cyril)"

 

[jmcrae]

Something is not right here…

Luke 22:14, the scripture reading for Palm Sunday says that Jesus warned Peter about Satan wanting to “sift you like wheat”. Yet the reading this Palm Sunday says: “…sift all of you like wheat”, which not only changes scripture but takes away from Peter’s pre-imminent role as the Chief Apostle.

First, Luke 22:14 says, “And when the hour had come, he reclined at table, and the twelve apostles with him.” I’m assuming you meant verse 31?

Second, verse 31 in the Bible still says, "And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired to have you [plural, meaning all of the Apostles] that he may sift you [meaning all the Apostles] as wheat.

He then says, in verse 32, “But I have prayed for thee [Peter *alone] that thy faith may not fail; and do thou, when once thou hast turned again, strengthen thy brethren.” “brethren” here referring again to the Apostles]

EDIT: I am thinking that in the translation they are using for your Missal, they have to indicate the plural by saying “all of you” because the singular “thee” has been replaced by the more ambiguous “you” in verse 32, in that particular translation.

That’s just a guess on my part.

 

[BobP123]

That being said, it seems to me, that if the vos was meant in the plural sense, then the “all” is simply added as a clarification of the plural version of the form you in English now is also used for the singular form.​

Bill

You mean like “fer u an’ alla youse” vernacular?

Ooops, wrong board.

 

[distracted]

This is basically the same post as your one here. I answered it over there.

I am not sure what happened… I meant to put the other, similar post in another forum and somehow my brain short-circuited… Its been known to do that…

Anyway, i am going to read your Post again because i am not sure i understand it completely… I hope it indicates that the probelm is not as big as i first thought…

 

[distracted]

Umm, I think you mean Luke 22:31, not 14.

In any case, a quick look at the vulgate (My Latin is rusty, but my Greek is non-existent) shows:

ait autem Dominus Simon Simon ecce Satanas expetivit vos ut cribraret sicut triticum

Now, as I said, my Latin is rusty, but I would read the above as…
“Then the Lord said to Simon, 'behold Simon, Satan seeks to have you sifted like wheat”

Now the key word for the sake of this argument is “vos” which is a form of you in latin. Now, vos can either be thought of as a more formal version of address or as a plural. In context, considering the closeness of Peter and Jesus, it seems to me to be a reasonable reading to suggest that you here was meant as a plural.

Now mind you the original text is in Greek, so someone with more knowledge of Greek than me would be needed to suggest if the same sense is in the Greek. That being said, it seems to me, that if the vos was meant in the plural sense, then the “all” is simply added as a clarification of the plural version of the form you in English now is also used for the singular form.

–thank you… i just don’t understand why this is the first time i have heard it like that… I am used to hearing the version where Jesus was speaking primarily to Peter… Even Protestants haven’t changed it (i visited a Protestant site that had to do with that passage).
I don’t know - the change just makes it seem SO Protestant, so, well, anti-papacy…

Bill

 

[distracted]

even if the papacy was proven false that would not nessesarally prove protestantism true

It would prove that neither was true… Becaue if the Church is wrong about that, and has been for centuries, it can’t be trusted on anything else…

When confused, walk in the Spirit… :doh2:

 

[distracted]

Umm, I think you mean Luke 22:31, not 14.

In any case, a quick look at the vulgate (My Latin is rusty, but my Greek is non-existent) shows:

ait autem Dominus Simon Simon ecce Satanas expetivit vos ut cribraret sicut triticum

Now, as I said, my Latin is rusty, but I would read the above as…
“Then the Lord said to Simon, 'behold Simon, Satan seeks to have you sifted like wheat”

Now the key word for the sake of this argument is “vos” which is a form of you in latin. Now, vos can either be thought of as a more formal version of address or as a plural. In context, considering the closeness of Peter and Jesus, it seems to me to be a reasonable reading to suggest that you here was meant as a plural.

Now mind you the original text is in Greek, so someone with more knowledge of Greek than me would be needed to suggest if the same sense is in the Greek. That being said, it seems to me, that if the vos was meant in the plural sense, then the “all” is simply added as a clarification of the plural version of the form you in English now is also used for the singular form.

–
Bill

This makes me a feel a little better… A LITTLE…

 

[distracted]

The verse you are referring to is Luke 22:31. From the NAB, Luke 22:31-32, “Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.”

From the RSV, “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

From the Douay-Rheims, “Luk 22:31 And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.”

From the KJV, “Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.”

From the ESV, Luk 22:31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat,
Luk 22:32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

From the NJB, 31’Simon, Simon! Look, Satan has got his wish to sift you all like wheat;32but I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail, and once you have recovered, you in your turn must strengthen your brothers.

From the CEV, Luk 22:31 Jesus said, “Simon, listen to me! Satan has demanded the right to test each one of you, as a farmer does when he separates wheat from the husks.
Luk 22:32 But Simon, I have prayed that your faith will be strong. And when you have come back to me, help the others.”

Some of the translations say “you” and others say “all of you” in verse 31, but the meaning is the same based on verse 32. In all the translations, Peter is the one who will strengthen his fellow apostles after he has repented and been forgiven of his sin.

Thank you. Gee, do you have a copy of all those versions?? :clapping:

 

[distracted]

First, Luke 22:14 says, “And when the hour had come, he reclined at table, and the twelve apostles with him.” I’m assuming you meant verse 31?

Second, verse 31 in the Bible still says, "And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired to have you [plural, meaning all of the Apostles] that he may sift you [meaning all the Apostles] as wheat.

He then says, in verse 32, "But I have prayed for thee [Peter *alone]

that thy faith may not fail; and do thou, when once thou hast turned again, strengthen thy brethren." “brethren” here referring again to the Apostles]

EDIT: I am thinking that in the translation they are using for your Missal, they have to indicate the plural by saying “all of you” because the singular “thee” has been replaced by the more ambiguous “you” in verse 32, in that particular translation.

That’s just a guess on my part.

Hmmm… i hate to say this, but now, i feel even more confused!
:coffeeread: :juggle: