Changing "vosotros" to "Usted" in Spanish Mass parts

[Cavaille-Coll]

I have attended many Spanish Masses in the United States where the priest will substitute the word “Usted” or its derivatives for “vosotros,” which is used in the approved Spanish sacramentary used in the United States. “Usted” is the formal second person plural “you” while “vosotros” is the informal. While “vosotros” is part of the common Spanish of Spain and parts of Latin America, it is rarely used among Mexicans, who prefer “Usted.” Is it permissible for a priest or deacon to change this?

 

[VociMike]

Sounds like the issue is with a one-size-fits-all translation. While I have no idea what the rules are, it seems like the intent of such a change is simply to make the vernacular more, well, vernacular to a particular group. I can’t find fault with such an attempt made on the very limited scale you present.

 

[japhy]

I have attended many Spanish Masses in the United States where the priest will substitute the word “Usted” or its derivatives for “vosotros,” which is used in the approved Spanish sacramentary used in the United States. “Usted” is the formal second person plural “you” while “vosotros” is the informal. While “vosotros” is part of the common Spanish of Spain and parts of Latin America, it is rarely used among Mexicans, who prefer “Usted.” Is it permissible for a priest or deacon to change this?

They’re jumping the gun. The USCCB has approved a future change of vosotros to ustedes, but it has not been enacted yet.

 

[benedictgal]

I have attended many Spanish Masses in the United States where the priest will substitute the word “Usted” or its derivatives for “vosotros,” which is used in the approved Spanish sacramentary used in the United States. “Usted” is the formal second person plural “you” while “vosotros” is the informal. While “vosotros” is part of the common Spanish of Spain and parts of Latin America, it is rarely used among Mexicans, who prefer “Usted.” Is it permissible for a priest or deacon to change this?

Actually, I think you have it backwards. “Vosotros” is fhe formal plual of “usted”, the formal singular. “Tu” is the informal singular while “ustedes” is the informal plural.

Our diocesan director of Divine Worship, a priest, is a member of the USCCB committee that is working on a Spanish-language Roman Missal for use in the United States. We currently use the Roman Missal from the Mexican Episcopal Conference. Included in that Roman Missal are the lectionary and the Book of the Gospels. However, there is a glitch in this system as the Responsorial Psalms come from the version approved for use by the Spanish (as in Spain) Episcopal Conference.

A friend of mine who is a priest has the Book of the Chair from Spain. It has the “vosotros”. The Mexican version of the Roman Missal, as noted in the OP, also uses “vosotros”.

Japhy is right. They are jumping the gun. Even the diocesan director is using “ustedes” and is telling the priests to do so. However, the approval is not there yet. For that matter, it’s not even there yet for the Spanish Roman Missal. I suspect that this will be a longer, more drawn-out process than what we are seeing with the ICEL.

 

[Phemie]

Actually, I think you have it backwards. “Vosotros” is fhe formal plual of “usted”, the formal singular. “Tu” is the informal singular while “ustedes” is the informal plural.

That was my first reaction (because in French ‘tu’ is familiar and ‘vous’ is polite), then I went to check my Spanish text book. Tú is listed as familiar and usted as polite; vosostros & vosotras are listed as ‘familiar’ and ustedes as both familiar and polite.

I know my Peruvian priest friend told me that they fought to get the informal language in their Missal, going so far as publishing their own and using it until it got approved.

 

[japhy]

Actually, I think you have it backwards. “Vosotros” is fhe formal plual of “usted”, the formal singular. “Tu” is the informal singular while “ustedes” is the informal plural.

That was my first reaction (because in French ‘tu’ is familiar and ‘vous’ is polite), then I went to check my Spanish text book. Tú is listed as familiar and usted as polite; vosostros & vosotras are listed as ‘familiar’ and ustedes as both familiar and polite.

I know French, and my initial reaction was to think that vosotros is formal (as Phemie). I don’t know Spanish. But wiktionary, if it can be trusted, says this:
ustedes, pl.

1. Spain (formal) you (plural); plural form of usted.
2. Latin America you (plural)

First person:
* singular: yo, mí, me
* plural: nosotros, nosotras, nos

Second person:
* tuteo: tú, ti, te
* voseo: vos, os
* formal: usted, ustedes, le, les
* familiar plural: vosotros, vosotras, vos, os
Other sources: “usted: You (your worship, your honor), a contraction of vuestra merced (vuesarced, usted), a pronoun used in polite style to address all persons of respectability, either orally or by letter.” (1) “ustedes (pron pers pl) Polite plural form of address also used in Latin American countries as the familiar plural form] you” (2)

So it seems that ustedes in Spanish (generally) means “you” plural formal. However, in Latin America, this word is also used in the informal (familiar) sense.

 

[DeusEratVerbum]

This makes sense seeing as vosotros isn’t ever used outside of literature. You would never use it in conversation.

Of course, you could just have the Mass in Latin and never have to worry about the constant changing of vernacular language.

 

[SMHW]

So it seems that ustedes in Spanish (generally) means “you” plural formal. However, in Latin America, this word is also used in the informal (familiar) sense.

Yep. That’s one of the things that I remember quite well from Spanish class all those years ago. “Ustedes” is formal plural but it used instead of the familiar plural in many parts of the Western Hemisphere. But the familiar singular *is *commonly used.

But none of this really matters as far as what is said at Mass since any Spanish speaker would understand “vosotros” even if they never use it.

Does anyone know what the Spanish sacramentary approved for use in Mexico says? I believe that was what was used in the United States for many years prior to their being an approved U.S. Spanish version (if there is even one now.)

 

[benedictgal]

Yep. That’s one of the things that I remember quite well from Spanish class all those years ago. “Ustedes” is formal plural but it used instead of the familiar plural in many parts of the Western Hemisphere. But the familiar singular *is *commonly used.

But none of this really matters as far as what is said at Mass since any Spanish speaker would understand “vosotros” even if they never use it.

Does anyone know what the Spanish sacramentary approved for use in Mexico says? I believe that was what was used in the United States for many years prior to their being an approved U.S. Spanish version (if there is even one now.)

Then I guess we were taught wrong as far as “vosotros” was concerned because we were told that “ustedes” was informal.

Now, I have seen the Mexican Roman Missal (the one that we use here in the United States, or, at least in Texas). It says “vosotros”.

By the way, those who are educated in formal Spanish would know what the word “vosotros” means, especially in the liturgy. The Mexican folks (the ones who live in Mexico and shop here) who come to our Masses don’t seem to have a problem with the word.

Now, I have a unique situation because I am on the Texas side of the border. My city is the largest inland port in the United States and has a healthy visitor traffic thanks to folks who come from the Mexican side. A lot of times, they come to Mass. They do get confused because we kneel during areas where they remain stainding. However, the prayers are the same because we use the Roman Missal approved for the Mexican Episcopal Conference. The catch is that the rubrics come from the USCCB-approved Roman Missal.

Now, in 2003, I spoke with Msgr. Moroney, the former Secretary to the then-Bishops Committee on Liturgy. We talked about which books we could use, given our unique bilingual situation. He told me that for the time being, we are to use the Roman Missal (Sacramentary and Lectionary/Book of the Gospels) from the Mexican Episcopal Conference. At the time, he noted that the USCCB should have their Spanish-language version up and running within five years. We are now at five years later, 2008. As I indicated in a previous post, the diocesan director for Divine Worship is on the committee and so far, no complete document has emerged, to my knowledge, for the USCCB to approve and send to Rome.

My reckoning is that it will take much longer to do this than the ICEL translations because of something that we haven’t factored into the equation: Not all Hispanics come from Mexico. You have the Cuban, Pureto Rican, Central American and South American bishops conferences and their particular Roman Missals. So, what is familiar in the Mexican one may be slighly different for the Argentine or Cuban versions. Interestingly enough, the Mexican Roman Missal does not set the prefaces to chant; however, the Argentine version does.

I’m almost afraid to say this, but, given the significant population of Spanish-speakers in the world, perhaps the Church should look into the possibility of having an International Committee on the Spanish Language for liturgical translations. Just the same, a U.S. version of the Spanish-language Roman Missal doesn’t exist just yet.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

It sounds like the same problem as thee, thou, ye and you in English.

 

[SMHW]

Now, I have seen the Mexican Roman Missal (the one that we use here in the United States, or, at least in Texas). It says “vosotros”.

By the way, those who are educated in formal Spanish would know what the word “vosotros” means, especially in the liturgy. The Mexican folks (the ones who live in Mexico and shop here) who come to our Masses don’t seem to have a problem with the word.

Yes. Just as any English speaker understands words such as “thee” and “thou” but is unlikely to use such words in everyday speech.

However, the prayers are the same because we use the Roman Missal approved for the Mexican Episcopal Conference. The catch is that the rubrics come from the USCCB-approved Roman Missal.

Now, in 2003, I spoke with Msgr. Moroney, the former Secretary to the then-Bishops Committee on Liturgy. We talked about which books we could use, given our unique bilingual situation. He told me that for the time being, we are to use the Roman Missal (Sacramentary and Lectionary/Book of the Gospels) from the Mexican Episcopal Conference. At the time, he noted that the USCCB should have their Spanish-language version up and running within five years.

It seems as if not much has changed since 2000/2001 when I worked for my parish liturgy director. It was an issue back then in my parish where Spanish liturgies are quite rare.

 

[SMHW]

It sounds like the same problem as thee, thou, ye and you in English.

My guess is that Mexican children are more likely to learn “vosotros” in their grammar classes than English speaking children are to learn the correct usage of *thee, thou, ye, *and you.

 

[pnewton]

My guess is that Mexican children are more likely to learn “vosotros” in their grammar classes than English speaking children are to learn the correct usage of *thee, thou, ye, *and you.

Dost thou truly thus believe. Alas, I fear thee may be right.

 

[Fuerza]

Then I guess we were taught wrong as far as “vosotros” was concerned because we were told that “ustedes” was informal.

Now, I have seen the Mexican Roman Missal (the one that we use here in the United States, or, at least in Texas). It says “vosotros”.

By the way, those who are educated in formal Spanish would know what the word “vosotros” means, especially in the liturgy. The Mexican folks (the ones who live in Mexico and shop here) who come to our Masses don’t seem to have a problem with the word.

Hi,

Native Spanish speaker here with an MA in Spanish Linguistics. Ustedes is definitely formal, however it can be used informally in Latin America, since the vosotros form is not used. It is still considered by default to be formal though.

Vosotros is another matter. In modern usage, it is the informal plural form and is used only in Spain. However, historically it was used not only as the plural form of the informal, but also as a singular honorific (as can be seen in the movie “Pan’s Labyrinth”). Therefore, it is entirely appropriate to use Vosotros to address God as it is a sign of respect. Whther or not an individual priest is authorized to use it in liturgy, however, is another matter altogether.

 

[benedictgal]

Hi,

Native Spanish speaker here with an MA in Spanish Linguistics. Ustedes is definitely formal, however it can be used informally in Latin America, since the vosotros form is not used. It is still considered by default to be formal though.

Vosotros is another matter. In modern usage, it is the informal plural form and is used only in Spain. However, historically it was used not only as the plural form of the informal, but also as a singular honorific (as can be seen in the movie “Pan’s Labyrinth”). Therefore, it is entirely appropriate to use Vosotros to address God as it is a sign of respect. Whther or not an individual priest is authorized to use it in liturgy, however, is another matter altogether.

Thank you. I feel with shame on that one. Even though I’m from the border, English is my first language.

By the way, my parochial vicar still uses “vosotros”.

 

[dzheremi]

On those occasions when I’ve slept too late to make the 10 A.M. English mass () or had a latino/a friend with me, I’ve gone to the Spanish mass here in my small community in northern California. It’s almost all Mexicans, and we use the voseo there even though we never use it in our day to day speech. To me it feels a bit awkward since it’s not part of Spanish as I learned it (from my grandmother, a native of Mexico City), but I definitely know what it means.

But just one thing to Fuerza: I only have a BA in general/theoretical linguistics so I will defer to your superior knowledge, but isn’t it also used in the more Europeanized states in Latin America (I’m thinking of Argentina and Uruguay), not just in Spain? Also, I have had friends from Colombia who use it, and when I asked them they said it was used in their country. Do you know if this is the case?

 

[StatCrux]

I just looked something up (very quickly and on wikipedia so it might be wrong) but it shows the parallel between English and Spanish.

Despite being viewed today as more formal address, Thee and Thou considered the informal address in their time.

Vosotros was and is the informal second person plural address. Because it is becoming anachronistic today people are confusing it with being a more formal address as well.

Despite being the informal mode of address, they have since developed into something more (formal, beautiful, something that points to tradition…). I think in a sense this is an example of organic development of liturgy in the context of language. We shouldn’t be quick to discard these “outdated” forms of address because they might have different, very contemporary meaning.

 

[Jsmith17]

This makes sense seeing as vosotros isn’t ever used outside of literature. You would never use it in conversation.

Spain uses the vosotros in conversation, as do my professors here that are from Spain. Unlike the English “thee, thou and ye”, the vosotros is still used by an important part of the Spanish speaking world.

 

[Jsmith17]

But just one thing to Fuerza: I only have a BA in general/theoretical linguistics so I will defer to your superior knowledge, but isn’t it also used in the more Europeanized states in Latin America (I’m thinking of Argentina and Uruguay), not just in Spain? Also, I have had friends from Colombia who use it, and when I asked them they said it was used in their country. Do you know if this is the case?

I’ve also noticed this. I’ve spoken to people who are from Argentina and Chile who used the vosotros in conversation.

 

[Fuerza]

On those occasions when I’ve slept too late to make the 10 A.M. English mass () or had a latino/a friend with me, I’ve gone to the Spanish mass here in my small community in northern California. It’s almost all Mexicans, and we use the voseo there even though we never use it in our day to day speech. To me it feels a bit awkward since it’s not part of Spanish as I learned it (from my grandmother, a native of Mexico City), but I definitely know what it means.

But just one thing to Fuerza: I only have a BA in general/theoretical linguistics so I will defer to your superior knowledge, but isn’t it also used in the more Europeanized states in Latin America (I’m thinking of Argentina and Uruguay), not just in Spain? Also, I have had friends from Colombia who use it, and when I asked them they said it was used in their country. Do you know if this is the case?

I have heard of its being used in those countries, especially since the voseo phenomenon is common there, and many would see it as a natural plural of “vos”. However, I’m not sure if using vosotros is the norm or if it’s only found in a few local dialects in those areas. The Hispanic side of my family is Puerto Rican/Spaniard and most of my teachers were from Mexico and Spain. Also, the focus of my degree was on European Spanish, so there are some specifics that I don’t know about South American varieties and others here may know more than I.