Chant and Pope Francis

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Cojuanco

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Now don’t get me wrong, I love our Holy Father. But I did notice that while, say, Benedict would chant, for example, the Preface, Francis does not. I would inquire to ask why this might be. Is it a Jesuit thing? Because I notice a similar though not identical contrast when I hear Mass celebrated by a Jesuit in contrast to one celebrated, for instance, by a Norbertine.
 
Cojuanco said:
Now don’t get me wrong, I love our Holy Father. But I did notice that while, say, Benedict would chant, for example, the Preface, Francis does not. I would inquire to ask why this might be. Is it a Jesuit thing? Because I notice a similar though not identical contrast when I hear Mass celebrated by a Jesuit in contrast to one celebrated, for instance, by a Norbertine.
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It’s because he is tone deaf and only has one lung.
 
Having one lung is liturgical abuse.

I’m logging off now. :whistle:

-Tim-
 
Sorry for the fast response – having been a Nurse, it just didn’t hit me as funny, but I suppose, if phrased a bit differently it could be. Just isn’t to me.
 
No it is not a Jesuit thing. I wish people would just drop it with the Jesuits. As a religious myself, I can honestly say that it borders on offensive. Each time the pope does something that people find different or displeasing, “it’s a jesuit”. There are 20,000 Jesuits in this world and most of them are very hard working and holy men who have done more good for the Church than most of us, including me.

To answer the question, the Holy Father has been asked why he speaks Italian so poorly and why he never attempts to speak in English or German, even though he knows both languages. He has said that he is totally tone deaf. He cannot hear pitches,which are necessary for languages and music. It is a auricular conductive nerve problem, not a pulmonary problem. Many people suffer from it and don’t know it, because it’s not a disease. In plain English, we call it tone deaf. That’s why some people can never pronounce another language correctly, even after much exposure. They can’t hear certain sounds; therefore, they can duplicate them correctly. It’s the same in music.
 
Thank you for the informed response. I had also heard that Pope Francis is “tone deaf”. I learned to hear notes prior to losing most of my hearing at age 5. So, although I could not always hear people’s voices, I could hear most music and had excellent pitch and could sing, although I couldn’t hear myself. I started wearing hearing aids when I was in my 40’s and finally could hear a bird sing for the first time since I was 5. Amazing! However, my hearing is now so poor that I can no longer sing or chant at all. I can still hear notes on a piano or organ, if my hearing aids are turned up, and tell if they are “on key”. I understand how not being able to hear well, in an auditory defect, would affect ability to hear the tonal sounds of languages. I still have some difficulty with Spanish, because some words sound alike, and I have difficulty reading lips in Spanish. I can relate to his problem, since I cannot hear much of anything at all when I take my hearing aids out. Even with them, I lose a lot of conversation if I can’t follow their lips, because I hear words in a very “blurry” way. Fortunately, I can still hear music to a large degree. I sympathize with tone deafness, which must be very frustrating. To be able to read and write a language, but unable to speak it clearly or at all would be difficult, especially for a man as intelligent as Pope Francis.

I would think the lack of one lung would affect his ability to sing much, if he could hear the notes. Breath control would be very difficult. I think we need to start thinking of him as our Holy Father, rather than as a Jesuit. He is no longer “a Jesuit” in a sense – He is the Pope!
 
judynurse said:
I would think the lack of one lung would affect his ability to sing much, if he could hear the notes. Breath control would be very difficult. I think we need to start thinking of him as our Holy Father, rather than as a Jesuit. He is no longer “a Jesuit” in a sense – He is the Pope!
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Just a few comments. He’s not missing an entire lung. The press got that wrong. He’s missing the left lower lobe.

As to the Jesuit thing. He is a Jesuit. A man is not dispensed from his religious vows when he becomes a bishop, not even the bishop of Rome. He is morally bound to live by those vows to the extent that they do not conflict with his ministry.

The proper way to identify him is as a Jesuit Pope, a regular pope, or a religious pope.

As opposed to Pope Benedict XVI who was a secular pope.

All popes are diocesan in the sense that they are all Bishop of Rome. If you’re not the Bishop of Rome, then you’re not the pope.

Interestingly enough, a pope is not an archbishop, because Rome is not a major metropolitan see.
 
Thank you for the information. I did not realize he’d had just a lobectomy, rather than losing the entire lung. You are correct, it would affect his breathing very little, except (possibly) at high altitudes, which affect almost everyone who normally lives near sea level or only a thousand or two thousand feet higher. (If you go suddenly to 5000 or 8000 feet for a vacation, be prepared to take a lot of naps the first few days! I used to live at high altitude, adjusted, returned to a lower altitude in Ohio. When I went back for a two week visit, I slept a LOT the first 3 or 4 days there!)

I understand what you mean about secular vs. religious order regarding the Pope. I realize he still follows his religious vows, but I think if more people will think of him primarily as the Pope and the Bishop of Rome, there will be fewer remarks about “is that a Jesuit thing?” Actually, the correct answer (I think???) to such comments is “no, it’s a Catholic thing!”
 
To JReducation: You apparently are a Religious in Ft. Worth. I have a good friend, a retired Franciscan priest who lives in a Franciscan retirement community there, and recommended that I might move there (it’s also open to laity and Third Order Secular Franciscans). Are you familiar with that location? I was very unsure about it, as my understanding of the area is that it’s extremely hot, stormy (tornados) in summer, and a lot of ice in winter or floods. Is this correct? I like cold weather, but not real hot anymore (used to live in Alamogordo, NM and the Convent in Amarillo --HOT!!!) Don’t care a lot for floods or ice either, but ice can be avoided by staying home, but not floods. Is it really hot and in a drought there? I’m also not too sure about living in a large city, as far as driving in one after 22 years in a small town. If it’s a suburban area, outside the city, that would probably solve that problem, but concerned about the heat in summer. Father likes the heat, so that’s no help in getting an accurate answer from him! Thank you for any information, Brother!
 
I intended no offense Brother. I just was curious because I know regular priests tend to have distinct customs, that’s all.
 
judynurse said:
To JReducation: You apparently are a Religious in Ft. Worth. I have a good friend, a retired Franciscan priest who lives in a Franciscan retirement community there, and recommended that I might move there (it’s also open to laity and Third Order Secular Franciscans). Are you familiar with that location? I was very unsure about it, as my understanding of the area is that it’s extremely hot, stormy (tornados) in summer, and a lot of ice in winter or floods. Is this correct? I like cold weather, but not real hot anymore (used to live in Alamogordo, NM and the Convent in Amarillo --HOT!!!) Don’t care a lot for floods or ice either, but ice can be avoided by staying home, but not floods. Is it really hot and in a drought there? I’m also not too sure about living in a large city, as far as driving in one after 22 years in a small town. If it’s a suburban area, outside the city, that would probably solve that problem, but concerned about the heat in summer. Father likes the heat, so that’s no help in getting an accurate answer from him! Thank you for any information, Brother!
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Oh no no no! I’m not in Ft. Worth. I’m in Ft. Lauderdale. The Franciscans in Ft. Worth are the Observants (OFM). We’re the the Franciscans of Life (FFV). I’m not too familiar with Texas at al. I’ve been there for short visits to Houston, San Antonio, El Paso and Dallas.
Cojuanco said:
I intended no offense Brother. I just was curious because I know regular priests tend to have distinct customs, that’s all.
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Not you. I have never heard you say anything negative about anyone. However, there is a small group that seems to see only the negatives of the Jesuit Order. Everytime the Jesuits come up, they jump on the train to remind everyone that the Jesuits are guilty of this and that. The problem is that they don’t jump on the train and mention that the Jesuits are also responsible for all of these other good things that happen in the Church or that they run some very important ministries and offices in the Church and do so very well.

It is true that the Society of Jesus has had a horrible transition from pre-Vatican II to post-Vatican II; but it is not alone. I think the world has had a horrible time transitioning from the 1950s to the 21st century and the roller coaster ride is not over. In other words, their men are a product of the culture in which they are born and raised, as are the men in my community, the Dominicans, the Oblates and everyone else.

They are at a disadvantage that people don’t want to recognize. I think it’s unfair not recognize it. St. Ignatius did not provide structure for them. In fact, he prohibited it.
 
He does not sing anything by himself, but if you will look very closely, you will see him singing along with the Pater Noster and some of the Marian hymns at his Masses.
 
I actually used to be more critical about the Jesuits than I am now. Then I actually met one in person. If even a fifth of Jesuits are like him, the Order is in good hands. And the campus ministry he serves… it’s like he’s conjuring vocations out of thin air, mostly for the Jesuits, naturally. He also handles RCIA for the nearby parish, which, given the alternative, is a superlative thing.

I still will make Jesuit jokes, though. 😛
 
Jesuit, Franciscan and Dominican jokes are the most common jokes about religious. They’re right up there with the rabbi, priest and minister jokes.

I have always found that the Jesuits have done very good work for the Church and continue to do so. I was very fortunate to deal with them a lot in the missions. They were impressive, because of their humility, hard work, and love for the people they serve. Back here, there was an elderly Jesuit, who has since gone to heaven. He worked with us on life issues. He was in his 80s, but he never missed a March for Life. If you have ever been to one, you know that it’s an exhausting event. He was like the Pied Piper. Kids just flocked to him. I also had the good fortune of being stationed in a parish with a Jesuit bishop. He was a very holy man. Were it not for him, I would have ended up in a psych ward. I hated parish life. That’s the one thing that I know I’ll have to do in Purgatory. 😦 Three-hundred years of parish life. :eek:
 
JReducation said:
I’m not too familiar with Texas at all.
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I am indeed sorry for your loss. 😃

Still, I hate to admit that my first reaction to the news he had one lung (or a missing lobe), was a flash back to the Great John Paul who said the Church needs to breathe with both of her lungs.
Jesuit, Franciscan and Dominican jokes are the most common jokes about religious. They’re right up there with the rabbi, priest and minister jokes.
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I never joke about Jesuits.

I use a Benedictine as my third, except for this one.

A Dominican and a Franciscan were having a discussion about whose order was most favored by God. Rather than getting into a heated argument, they decided to pray for a sign. They both went into the church and started praying fervently; each trying to “out pray” the other. This marathon went late into the evening and eventually both men fell asleep. When they awoke the following morning, there was a letter lying on the alter. Both men rushed up to see what it said. The letter read:

Brothers,
I hold both the Dominicans and the Franciscans in equally high favor.
*Omnisciently yours, *
God, S.J.

Merry Christmas to all!
 
JReducation said:
No it is not a Jesuit thing. I wish people would just drop it with the Jesuits. As a religious myself, I can honestly say that it borders on offensive. Each time the pope does something that people find different or displeasing, “it’s a jesuit”. There are 20,000 Jesuits in this world and most of them are very hard working and holy men who have done more good for the Church than most of us, including me.
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Brother, it has nothing to do with mocking or degrading Jesuits. St. Ignatius wanted the clerks regular to be able to celebrate the Divine Office with less solemnity than was commonly expected in his time, so chanting is something that’s very uncommon among Jesuits. And that’s ok!
It is of course a well-known fact that the Jesuits have never had choral singing or recitation of the Office as part of their order’s way of life. Their two great Roman churches, the Gesù (1584) and Sant’ Ignazio (1650), have enormous sanctuaries, designed to be clearly visible from the entire nave; unlike the churches of older religious orders, neither one has any choir stalls. When the order was very new, shortly after Saint Ignatius’ death, they were temporarily forced by Pope Paul IV, who never liked either Ignatius or his order, to accept the obligation to choral Office. Diego Laynez, one of the Saint’s first companions and his successor as Superior General, protested, but to no effect. In the true spirit of Ignatian obedience, the Jesuits began celebrating the Divine Office in choir; and in the true spirit of Ignatian independence, dropped it three years later, with the permission of Paul’s successor Pius IV, a Pope much more sympathetic to the Society and Ignatius’ vision for it.
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n releasing his order from the communal celebration of the Office, Saint Ignatius was not motivated by disdain for or lack of interest in the public prayer of the Church. As Fr. Robert Taft, himself a Jesuit, points out, “(t)he evidence for Ignatius’ personal devotion to the public hours and his daily attendance at them…is beyond challenge.” (The Liturgy of the Hours in East and West, p. 301) His purpose was rather to keep the members of the Society from being tied down to any obligation which might impede the apostolic works in which they would be engaged. A Jesuit would never have to break off his studies, his teaching, his spiritual direction or time in the confessional to run off to Vespers at the church of his order. The idea was not that he was free to ignore the Divine Office, but rather, freer to participate in it, if he so desired, with those who retained the traditional choir obligations of the secular and religious clergy.
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Source: newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/10/compendium-of-reforms-of-roman-breviary_06.html#.UsRUY_sxsw8
 
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