CHANT - Easy or Hard?

[snarflemike]

However, I would caution Catholics (or any Christians) who say, “As long as it’s chant, it doesn’t matter if diphthongs are used, or if people sing badly in their chest voices, or if men, women, and children all chant together with a resulting cacophony.”

This is the kind of thinking that has led to Protestant churches accepting very mediocre or even badly-written, even un-singable, Praise and Worship music instead of seeking out well-written songs and hymns that the entire congregation, even little children, can sing together.

IMO, anyone who advocates more chant in the Mass must also advocate well-done chant, which means educating the cantors, choir, and CONGREGATION in how to properly sing chant so that a beautiful sound is produced.

Here we are in complete agreement. Just as there is the saying, “never sing louder than beautiful,” there must also be the rule, “never sing more complicated than beautiful,” (a rule that our parish choir violates routinely). Nothing will turn a person off of ANY type of music than hearing it performed badly. Vatican II says that the 2nd purpose of sacred music is to sanctify the faithful, and ugly just doesn’t sanctify. I sometimes joke that, “It’s called GREGORIAN chant, people, not PRUSSIAN chant.” Just because the neumes are square doesn’t mean they should be SUNG square, like the victory march through Paris.

 

[Peeps]

Here we are in complete agreement. Just as there is the saying, “never sing louder than beautiful,” there must also be the rule, “never sing more complicated than beautiful,” (a rule that our parish choir violates routinely). Nothing will turn a person off of ANY type of music than hearing it performed badly. Vatican II says that the 2nd purpose of sacred music is to sanctify the faithful, and ugly just doesn’t sanctify. I sometimes joke that, “It’s called GREGORIAN chant, people, not PRUSSIAN chant.” Just because the neumes are square doesn’t mean they should be SUNG square, like the victory march through Paris.

snarflemike, I agree with you, but I would like to ask you to consider taking the same approach to whichever Catholic hymns you dislike.

I don’t like chant, but the few times our parish has tried it (several times for about 3 months, and then gave it up), I sang with all my heart and I sang as correctly as I know how. I earned a minor in music in college and have worked as rehearsal accompanist for many choirs, so I have learned the proper way to pronounce Latin. I have a terrible music memory, so if I have no “score” to refer to, I cannot remember a chant, but if there is a score, I turn to it and read it (our parish used the chants in the Gather hymnal).

I didn’t stand there with my mouth closed and an expression of disgust on my face. The music in the parish is selected by a music minister, who is under the authority of the priest who is under the authority of the the bishop who is under the authority of the pope who is under the authority of Our Lord Jesus Christ. It’s not my call to refuse to participate in a Mass that is valid and licit and music that is permitted by the rubrics.

So hopefully, you do the same for the hymns you personally don’t care for.

If everyone worked hard to sing/play as well as they are capable of, Catholics would all enjoy the Mass music more, and Protestants wouldn’t grimace and shake their heads when they visit our Masses!

 

[EmmaSowl]

Just speaking as a Byzantine Catholic

One of the members of my apologetics group (now defunct due to age - I was the whippersnapper, and now I’m nearly 60) was a Byzantine Catholic! Boy, did he love the liturgy. If I recall (you can correct me), the Byzantine liturgy borders on two hours.

I remember him saying how he couldn’t understand people who didn’t love the liturgy.

At that time, I was a convert from atheism who was annoyed by much of the liturgy. My cradle-Catholic Godmother told me to pray to love the liturgy. My prayer was partially answered: I’m obsessed with it!

Maybe I’d love it more if it was Byzantine…

Here an example of what it looks like:

Oh. My. Dear. Lord…

Now, that is not easy.

But a simple Agnus Dei is…

 

[EmmaSowl]

I’m an engineer - no musical training whatsoever. I picked up the notation in about an hour (it may be easier for non-music-readers than for readers, I don’t know).

Yes, yes, yes! It’s music for the people.

I remember my Godmother’s words a couple of years after my baptism (I was by then in the choir and cantoring): “With all those parts, I don’t know what I’m supposed to sing…”

God forgive me, at that moment, I took an elitist view that she was just ignorant (!!!). Thank God, I was smitten down from my arrogance and spent years crawling back to Mass, followed by years sitting in the pews.

Boy, oh, boy did I have to hang on to my Godmother’s other words to pray to love the Mass - because there is nothing in the parishes I’ve belonged to that helps the person in the pews feel that he is a part of the Mass.

Certainly not the music - unless one actually has a radio button set to Christian Rock (I do not).

I strongly believe chant should use the neume notation, not modern whole or half or quarter notes. I could go into my reasons if the discussion moves that way.

I’m moving it that way! I’m the OP - I get to, mwahahaha!

Seriously, I have no idea what you’re talking about, but I want to know (mostly because I really identified with the beginning of your post). There’s about 50 more replies I have yet to read, but if you haven’t explained yet, please do so before my next CA session.

God bless.

 

[ziapueblo]

the Byzantine liturgy borders on two hours.

If it’s done right, yes!

My prayer was partially answered: I’m obsessed with it!

I’m happy for you. We (Byzantines) love visitors. Is there a Byzantine Catholic parish in your area?

ZP

 

[dochawk]

You should check out Byzantine chant notation. It’s a whole other language

But otherwise, it would hardly be byzantine!

Lol, I wonder if I could learn it!

“plainchant” is trivially easy.

And any form of music or chant that is not easy and straightforward without training has no place being used liturgically for the people’s parts! (if it’s supposed to be choir without the congregation, that’s another story).

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) EmmaSowl:

the Byzantine liturgy borders on two hours.

Although that varies widely.

I think the “typical” for the current version in the Pittsburgh Metropolia (nee Ruthenian) is about 75 minutes—but our priests natural singing speed may be the fastest in history. We’ve seen unrushed 50 minutes (with full homily, he’s one of the rarities that can hold attention for a long one)!

He’s not rushing; it’s just his natural speed. He would probably sound downright peculiar at “standard” speed . . .

And he’s had very positive responses covering latin rite masses when he’s simply slipped into slavonic plainchant!

 

[EmmaSowl]

Is there a Byzantine Catholic parish in your area?

Not that I know of, but there’s an FSSP church right across the street from my work.

Gosh, I wish life hadn’t converged on me from all sides this month. I still haven’t had time to read 90% of the posts here. Pray that I’ll have time this week!

 

[ziapueblo]

What next if the woods are you in?

ZP

 

[EmmaSowl]

I’m an engineer - no musical training whatsoever. I picked up the notation in about an hour (it may be easier for non-music-readers than for readers, I don’t know).

I’m the daughter of an engineer (Lockheed).

But I was also in theatre and choir since grade school. Self-taught piano and guitar when young - now cannot play a lick.

Although I’ve written many songs, I still have to look at a staff and recite Every Good Boy Does Fine to identify a note. I’m no natural. For me, music is like a puzzle. If one knows the basics, one can construct something without expert training.

I think you’re right that maybe some ways of learning music might easier for non-music-readers.

I strongly believe chant should use the neume notation, not modern whole or half or quarter notes. I could go into my reasons if the discussion moves that way.

Never heard of neume notation. Is it that squiggly stuff? I’m not sure that would be helpful to the Average Joe, but what do I know?

I do like modern notes - I understand the beat patterns when I see them. I also like chant that is written like modern notes but eliminates the stems because they are not needed because nothing is flagged or dotted.

But ultimately, I do not think it is about the presentation of the notes. I think it is about the cadence of the song. Songs with a peaceful, consistent style will always be easier to sing than songs that are fancy schmancy.

 

[EmmaSowl]

I think this is the key–to have heard what it is you’re trying to do.

The other thing is that the place to start with chant is to learn a Mass that the congregation will do over and over again. That also gets it in your ear.

I think that’s why the old chants hold up. Our congregations are old and know that stuff because they heard it over and over and over. However, if we deny it to the youth, they may have some trouble learning it later.

But not that much trouble. I mean, if they can learn the current Verse, Verse, Refrain, Verse, Bridge, Refrain, Verse, Repeat, Bridge, Refrain music they’re given today, I think they can learn an Agnus Dei.

The other thing is that the place to start with chant is to learn a Mass that the congregation will do over and over again. That also gets it in your ear.

Yes! Getting in the ear is the key. It is so frustrating that, with every liturgical season, a brand new set of songs is introduced. It’s a cheap trick to introduce new music during non-ordinary seasons - especially Christmas.

Sure, introduce new songs (some new songs are really good), but do it slowly. Don’t cheat the faithful out of the few songs they really, really know well.

 

[EmmaSowl]

I find Chant to be FAR EASIER than other songs. I can’t read music, but I can chant almost anything using a basic meter.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for validating my observations!

What I don’t understand is why this observation is controversial. I mean, puh-lease, compare any chant with any contemporary song and explain exactly why chant is harder.

However, what I find interesting is the number of cantors who can’t chant to save their life but can sing hymns like On Eagles Wings without issue.

They can chant. They just hate to do it because it doesn’t show off their musical chops.

Okay, that’s pure speculation, but I would like to know how someone can sing a pop song but not chant.

 

[Peeps]

Okay, that’s pure speculation, but I would like to know how someone can sing a pop song but not chant.

For those who are comfortable with “pop songs” because of their upbringing, family preferences, church background, school music program, music training, or for some other reason, pop songs are natural and easy to sing.

Same for any style of music. I grew up with all kinds of music–classical, country, musical theater, big band, and some pop (mainly the Beatles, who have a large repertoire of very melodic songs).

I didn’t grow up with chant, other than in the old horror movies on the late Friday night “Creature Feature”.

Pianists like me generally have an easy time reading music–we’re the best sightsingers! I can read notes and rhythms at the same time, in any part.

OTOH, pianists are often (but not always) TERRIBLE at learning songs “by ear.” In churches that use Praise and Worship, in which there are no hymnals or music scores, just words on an overhead, we suffer! When my husband and I were Protestant, we started coming to church 20 minutes late to avoid the Praise and Worship time–we literally hated it (and still dislike it when we visit a Protestant church and it’s utilized in the worship services).

My organ teacher has his doctoral degree and over 50 years of experience playing church music, leading choirs, teaching voice and keyboards, teaching band and orchestra methods, and writing/arranging music. However, he, like me, is a terrible “ear” singer! However, he knows chant-but he was raised in the Episcopal church, where chant is still used.

Anyway, it’s just what you were raised with and also what you like. What you like is heavily-influenced by where and how you were raised. I believe that people can cultivate a broader music appreciation if their parents and other family members are open to different kinds of music (my parents were), but I also think that many people grow up listening to basically one or two styles of music, and don’t really develop an appreciation for music styles outside of their comfort zone.

I guess what you can glean from this post is that the reasons people aren’t on board with chant in the Mass are more complex than just “I don’t like it.” It doesn’t help when fellow Catholics say, “But this is the Official Music of the Church.” The natural reaction is, “Oh, so all the music that I’ve sung all my life is chopped liver? Really? My grandmother, God rest her soul, had Eagles’ Wings sung at her funeral, and I love that song and I always will.”

You’re up against something bigger than just a bad attitude. The technological age (starting with the Victrola and the radio!) has allowed people to bring many different types of music into their lives, and telling them to abandon all that and do chant in Mass is like telling people to give up eating their favorite foods and eat "“Superfood.” Yes, it’s probably healthier, but…

 

[Divine3]

If you go to a Byzantine eastern divine liturgy in union with Rome…the whole congregation chants, the readings are chanted, the priest chants all the prayers…the chants are easy to follow. A delight to behold. There are plenty of Latin rite priest who have adequate voices to chant the mass but they don’t. I have been to some masses where the priest does chant. So what if its extra work, look how the Eastern priest work in giving a sacred liturgy for God and the community. But the mass is in English.

 

[DaveBj]

I still have to look at a staff and recite Every Good Boy Does Fine

You need to catch up with the times. Nowadays it “Every Good Burger Deserves Fries.” Bass staff lines are “Good Burritos Don’t Fall Apart.”



D

 

[babochka]

EmmaSowl:

I still have to look at a staff and recite Every Good Boy Does Fine

You need to catch up with the times. Nowadays it “Every Good Burger Deserves Fries.” Bass staff lines are “Good Burritos Don’t Fall Apart.”



D

Do all cows still eat grass?

 

[DaveBj]

Do all cows still eat grass?

Yes, but the alternatives aren’t as funny.

All Cars Eat Gas
All Cows Eat Grass
Any Cat Eats Greens
Apples Can’t Excel Grapes
Ashley Can Eat Grapes

D

 

[EmmaSowl]

However, many of the Mass propers can be quite difficult.

Then, I think, we can avoid the difficult until the faithful are ready for it.

Milk before meat.

 

[EmmaSowl]

Have you ever sung chant as part of a choir?

Yes. And those are the times I hear the faithful sing the loudest.

 

[EmmaSowl]

Those who say the “common man” cannot chant probably hasn’t taken the time to bother teaching it.

AMEN, brother!!!

 

[EmmaSowl]

I think most simple chant settings are well within the reach of a congregation.

However the more complicated and melismatic chants of the Propers is probably not so easy for beginners

This exemplifies the new info I’m getting from these threads. There is simple chant and there is intricate chant.

I know nothing of intricate chant.

But I know that simple chant creates more singing by the faithful at Mass than any hymns - even simple hymns. (And I like simple hymns).

I’m not a chant-only broad. I’m a let-the-faithful-sing broad. That means I want ALL music (chant or hymns or [groan] contemporary worship) to be presented in a way that actually helps the faithful sing.

If choirs would stop performing and start facilitating, the faithful would sing more, learn more, and maybe one day be able to sing intricate chant/hymns during the jubilant holy seasons (Christmas/Easter) which are fitting for the fancy schmancy stuff.