Chaplains in Nazi Germany

  • Thread starter Thread starter KidShellen
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
In the beginning, many german people saw hitler as a saviour of their economy. And I have no problem with this. He did a lot of good at the start.

But then…
Excuse me? The barbarous nature of the regime was there from day one. 1933 was in many ways especially bad with the utter lawlessness of the “national ground” in which the Nazis created “facts on the ground”. Downright terror.

As for the economy, it was already on the mend when Hitler - seized illegally - dictatorial power (I’m talking of the “Machtergreifung” subsequent to his appointment to the chancellorship). In many ways, Hitler harvested fruits that were already sown. But he “invested” Germany’s resources into a non-productive endeavour - military armament - which would have meant financial and economic ruin. Only the logic of territorial expansion could save that economic model from collapse. Austrian and Czech gold and then the rape of Europe kept things going.

To get back to this thread’s defined issue, I think the case of Abbé Franz Stock and the manner he has been honoured by our Popes (and may one day be pronounced a saint) speaks weightily to the issue of the morality of military chaplaincy in this context.

It would be instructive to also see what the magisterium has to say on the matter of military chaplaincy. Can anyone find appropriate sources?

As for a biblical reference, Christ and his apostles also ministered to officers of the occupying force. Generally considered as the enemy by Jews.

Incidentally, they never refused to minister to any genuine seekers. Nor should Christ’s church in our times. (Those medieval interdicts, for one, which meant that the normal faithful were denied the sacraments on account of the Pope’s differences with secular rulers strikes me as - to say the least - no example to emulate).

For me the basic issue is very clear.
 
Only the logic of territorial expansion could save that economic model from collapse. Austrian and Czech gold and then the rape of Europe kept things going.
Theft in one form or another, straightforward confiscation, compulsory payments and ‘taxes’ on emigration, ‘Sühneleistung’ etc was an important economic policy from very early on.
 
Theft in one form or another, straightforward confiscation, compulsory payments and ‘taxes’ on emigration, ‘Sühneleistung’ etc was an important economic policy from very early on.
Good point.

People ought to consider all of this, when coming up with the perennial “but he built the autobahns!” argument (which were anyway already in planning prior to Hitler’s takeover, I believe).
 
You’ll have to provide a reference for this. The issue is complex. First, the Vatican signed a Reichskonkordat in 1933 in order to protect the rights of the Catholic Church in Germany. Under this agreement, Franz Justus Rarkowski, S.M., was the Catholic military Bishop of Nazi Germany. He had been acting head of the chaplaincy since 1929. In 1938, he was given the title, Field Bishop of the German Army. There were 560 chaplains at the beginning of the war. Only the Air Force under Hermann Göring forbade chaplains.

Also in 1938, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain met with Chancellor Hitler and signed the Munich Agreement even though Hitler had seized a portion of Czechoslovakia known as the Sudetenland. Both France and Britain wanted to avoid war at all costs and the British Prime Minister felt that by giving Hitler what he did, he declared “Peace for our time” was the result.

You really have to understand the thinking of the time, not the years after.

Who did Time magazine name Man of the Year in 1938?

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,760539,00.html

How about Time’s cover for one issue in 1936?

time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19360413,00.html

Peace,
Ed
Ed,
Man of the year doesn’t mean good man of the year, but one that impacted the world with his presence.

I honestly don’t understand your point. If the priests and bishops went to concentration camps for standing up to hitler, then why didn’t the priests in the mitlitary follow suit?

Haven’t we had christians stand up before? They died, but they stood up and said no.
I have a difficult time understanding this forever and I’m glad this topic came up.

I’m not against the german people at the time this went on, I just don’t understand them.

I believe the argument I’ve heard the most is that if they didn’t fight, then off to the concentration camps they would go. But, haven’t people stood up before in history and lost their lives for it? What makes this so different?

And then I think about all those german boys who died in that war, and the condition of their conscience. They died anyway, wouldn’t it have been better if they had stood up?

I ask the questions not in criticism, but in great quandary.

Just some thoughts.
 
Just because the war was unjust, doesn’t mean the poor Catholics conscripted to fight didn’t have a right to the Sacraments.

If the chaplain joined to fight for Nazi Germany…then yes he supported an unjust war. If however he served to bring Christ to the troops…how can he be guilty of supporting an evil war?
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that point.
 
Excuse me? The barbarous nature of the regime was there from day one. 1933 was in many ways especially bad with the utter lawlessness of the “national ground” in which the Nazis created “facts on the ground”. Downright terror.

As for the economy, it was already on the mend when Hitler - seized illegally - dictatorial power (I’m talking of the “Machtergreifung” subsequent to his appointment to the chancellorship). In many ways, Hitler harvested fruits that were already sown. But he “invested” Germany’s resources into a non-productive endeavour - military armament - which would have meant financial and economic ruin. Only the logic of territorial expansion could save that economic model from collapse. Austrian and Czech gold and then the rape of Europe kept things going.

To get back to this thread’s defined issue, I think the case of Abbé Franz Stock and the manner he has been honoured by our Popes (and may one day be pronounced a saint) speaks weightily to the issue of the morality of military chaplaincy in this context.

It would be instructive to also see what the magisterium has to say on the matter of military chaplaincy. Can anyone find appropriate sources?

As for a biblical reference, Christ and his apostles also ministered to officers of the occupying force. Generally considered as the enemy by Jews.

Incidentally, they never refused to minister to any genuine seekers. Nor should Christ’s church in our times. (Those medieval interdicts, for one, which meant that the normal faithful were denied the sacraments on account of the Pope’s differences with secular rulers strikes me as - to say the least - no example to emulate).

For me the basic issue is very clear.
In the beginning of hitler’s rise, it would depend on where one was standing and how much was known. I believe, from what I have read, that the people didn’t know a lot of what was going on in the background. And he did help the housing and job situation in the beginning.
I think I would have been taken in by him at the initial stage.

Just a thought.
 
Ed,
Man of the year doesn’t mean good man of the year, but one that impacted the world with his presence.

I honestly don’t understand your point. If the priests and bishops went to concentration camps for standing up to hitler, then why didn’t the priests in the mitlitary follow suit?

Haven’t we had christians stand up before? They died, but they stood up and said no.
I have a difficult time understanding this forever and I’m glad this topic came up.

I’m not against the german people at the time this went on, I just don’t understand them.

I believe the argument I’ve heard the most is that if they didn’t fight, then off to the concentration camps they would go. But, haven’t people stood up before in history and lost their lives for it? What makes this so different?

And then I think about all those german boys who died in that war, and the condition of their conscience. They died anyway, wouldn’t it have been better if they had stood up?

I ask the questions not in criticism, but in great quandary.

Just some thoughts.
Read some history from credible sources. You don’t understand the mind of the German people at the time. They were horrified by the Godless Bolsheviks. Hitler’s book, Mein Kampf, was widely circulated and translated. Henry Ford, in the United States, published a book titled “The International Jew - The World’s Foremost Problem.” Hitler said that he wished he could send some of his Brownshirts, the paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party, to America to help Mr. Ford.

The Nazis created groups like the Jungvolk for those too young to join the Hitler Youth. The German people were horrified when the Nazi’s signed a non-aggression pact with the Russians (temporary, but the Russians didn’t know that until later), but were partly relieved to know their Eastern border was secured.

It seems a few people here believe that young German men were simply put in uniform, pointed in some particular direction and simply told to attack. The French deserved what they got (according to prevailing thought in the Party) and to this day, there is some debate as to why they surrendered so quickly. The Communists were defeated in Spain, with Hitler’s help, during the period 1936 to April 1939. Access to the Polish port at Danzig (Polish name: Gdańsk) was a necessity. The British Empire, on which the sun never set, was the preeminent naval power and the Germans and Japanese would deprive the British of their holdings in the East, including access to certain raw materials. North Africa had to be secured to deny the Allies a base of operations and to gain access to Arab oil. Anyone who believed that Germany was not rearming to the teeth, long before 1939, was either an idiot or a backer of the regime (who might claim it was only defensive). For example, the Russians murdered just over 20,000 Polish military personnel in 1940 and the mass burial site was discovered by the Germans in 1943. The Russians blamed the Germans. They lied. Other mass murder burial sites of Polish personnel were also discovered.

The Germans were fighting, they believed, Communist aggression, for living space, and for honor. They were destined to rule, not the Communist Barbarians from the East, and the British Empire had their chance to join the Nazis in their fight against Bolshevism. When they refused, and had the audacity to join the Americans on D-Day, they got V-1 cruise missiles exactly one week later. After combined Allied arms had captured the V-1 launch sites in France, the British breathed a brief sigh of relief, but that was followed by the V-2 ballistic rocket which was impossible to shoot down. The British could have saved their citizens from all that if they quit the war or joined with the Germans, but they didn’t.

Those Germans in uniform were fighting for territory and the belief that the Russians would just take Eastern and Western Europe if they didn’t. The French couldn’t do it and the British couldn’t do it. The Americans wanted to stay out, at first. This was a “European problem.” Bad enough they had to pull the British fat our of the fire in the First World War.

As my father, who joined the Polish Army, since the Polish government knew the Germans were about to invade, said about being drafted. “Son, when they (the recruiters) come to your home, you go. You’ve got nothing to say.” Just or unjust. When your country calls - you report for training and duty.

As to why this was different, and it wasn’t, get a book or two about German chaplains during World War II.

Peace,
Ed
 
Ed, I found one book on German chaplains, and I didn’t think it would answer any question I had, but was mostly factual.

So I gather from what you said, that the german people thought they were protecting the world against communist aggression by aggressively taking Poland and France with no declaration of war. And the German people agreed that this was what should be done, to agressively take those countries against their will, for Germany knew what was best for the world and the German people.

And England should just ignore the peace treaty and alliance they had with Poland and France when Germany agressively attacked Poland without provocation. In fact, tho I don’t remember the exact details, the Germans faked some sort of aggressive move by the Pole’s or French on the German boarder so Germans could justify their attack.

And I do believe that the night of glass shocked many of the German people.

There may have been some lies and propaganda fed to the german soldiers, and I’m sure some of them believed, but certainly there were many who didn’t.

I haven’t seen any hard evidence to help me understand why then someone didn’t stand up and be counted except for fear.

Maybe you could refer a book to me that would help me to understand.

Just some thoughts.​

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
 
Of course fear was the primary weapon. The following may be helpful:

catholic.com/magazine/articles/catholic-martyrs-of-the-holocaust

You have to understand that toward the end of the war, that most German troops went out of their way to surrender to American forces than the Russians, if they could. As Russian troops moved through Prussia (Poland), they fought to the last bullet to defend German civilians who had settled there during the war so they could escape the Russians.

General Patton was right. “We fought the wrong enemy.” He could not understand how the United States, which had liberated Eastern Europe, would allow it to fall into Russian hands. He was ready to go to war with the Russians. But deals had been made.

Peace,
Ed
 
So if you were forced to fight in an unjust war, you think you don’t have a right to have a priest offer you the Sacraments? :confused:
There is always a choice: to fight or not to fight.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
 
There is always a choice: to fight or not to fight.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
True, but if you refused…you could find yourself and your family in a death camp. The point is, I don’t think it’s right to deny faithful Catholics the Sacraments because one’s opinion that a war is unjust. It’s not Catholic to punish those who fight, because they wish not to see their entire family tortured or killled, as was the case in some dictatorships. It’s easy to be strong with a “do or die” when you’re by yourself…but when other people’s lives are at stake…it’s not so easy to stand your ground.

Should all American Catholics be denied the Sacraments if they fought in Iraq, because Bl. JP II saw it as an unjust war?
 
True, but if you refused…you could find yourself and your family in a death camp. The point is, I don’t think it’s right to deny faithful Catholics the Sacraments because one’s opinion that a war is unjust. It’s not Catholic to punish those who fight, because they wish not to see their entire family tortured or killled, as was the case in some dictatorships. It’s easy to be strong with a “do or die” when you’re by yourself…but when other people’s lives are at stake…it’s not so easy to stand your ground.

Should all American Catholics be denied the Sacraments if they fought in Iraq, because Bl. JP II saw it as an unjust war?
I believe that chaplains being in the military were ok since they were not there to take lives as a soldier. The same for the medics.

When the person receives the sacrament of confession, it is required that the sin is regretted for having been done, and that determination not to do it again is requisit.
If not, the sacrament is a sacrilege. How could someone in this ongoing situation meet these conditions? These are simply the requirements for reception by the church.

In the case of those who were sincerely misled thinking it was a just war, and the chaplain was of the same conviction, then this may have been different.

But fear itself, and the various shades of it, is not a reason to justify sin.

I have sometimes asked myself what would I do if I was conscripted into the military and told by the president that he is my leader, and I must do as he says…period. And then he orders me along with my regiment to invade Canada…just because he says so and he is the leader and I must obey. What would I do?

I would hope that I could believe in the words of Jesus when he said, “rejoice and be glad for your reward is great in the kingdom of heaven.” I sincerely would hope that I could live up to and rejoice in those words, along with my family. And then respond, “show me the wall where I must die,” and then sing the Ave Maria. But I am only a man, and who knows?

But at any rate, that world war is over and almost everyone in it has been taken to the next world. Being over, does it matter now what we think. Only in so far as we can learn from history and be ready when history repeats itself.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
 
I believe that chaplains being in the military were ok since they were not there to take lives as a soldier. The same for the medics.

When the person receives the sacrament of confession, it is required that the sin is regretted for having been done, and that determination not to do it again is requisit.
If not, the sacrament is a sacrilege. How could someone in this ongoing situation meet these conditions? These are simply the requirements for reception by the church.

In the case of those who were sincerely misled thinking it was a just war, and the chaplain was of the same conviction, then this may have been different.

But fear itself, and the various shades of it, is not a reason to justify sin.
True fear is not a justified reason, but coercion does limit the culpability of the sin. As for those serving in the Armed Forces
“Those who are pledged to the service of their country as members of its armed forces should regard themselves as agents of security and freedom on behalf of their people. As long as they fulfill this role properly, they are making a genuine contribution to the establishment of peace.” (Gaudium et Spes, No. 79).
Therefore a soldier does not necessarily need to confess his killing of other soldiers in combat. Provided that the war is just, this killing is not a sin as it is not the taking of an innocent human life; it is stopping an unjust aggressor for the sake of the common good.
 
Therefore a soldier does not necessarily need to confess his killing of other soldiers in combat. Provided that the war is just, this killing is not a sin as it is not the taking of an innocent human life; it is stopping an unjust aggressor for the sake of the common good.

This view would not apply to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where the killing was indiscriminate. Whole cities and their civilian populations were destroyed.
 
True fear is not a justified reason, but coercion does limit the culpability of the sin. As for those serving in the Armed Forces

Therefore a soldier does not necessarily need to confess his killing of other soldiers in combat. Provided that the war is just, this killing is not a sin as it is not the taking of an innocent human life; it is stopping an unjust aggressor for the sake of the common good.
Again it goes back to what is a just war and what is not.

If the catholic bishops and priests in Germany stood up against the III Reich, went to concentration camps and died, and other catholic organisations were shut down for their stand against it, then why would this be considered a just war? The soldier is soldier last to being catholic first.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
 
Again it goes back to what is a just war and what is not.

If the catholic bishops and priests in Germany stood up against the III Reich, went to concentration camps and died, and other catholic organisations were shut down for their stand against it, then why would this be considered a just war? The soldier is soldier last to being catholic first.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
Well some believed they were defending Europe against Communism. Not saying they were right, but hindsight is 20/20.
 
Assuming they had military chaplains (I don’t know if Hitler would allow it since his beliefs were more pagan than Catholic, and his regime put Catholic priests and nuns to death) even a Nazi soldier needed to have a priest present to hear his confession and be absolved of his sins. This is like the situation of Jesus eating with sinners.
 
Assuming they had military chaplains (I don’t know if Hitler would allow it since his beliefs were more pagan than Catholic, and his regime put Catholic priests and nuns to death) even a Nazi soldier needed to have a priest present to hear his confession and be absolved of his sins. This is like the situation of Jesus eating with sinners.
They did have chaplains. Hitler may have been an atheist (Himmler was the pagan), but a lot of Germany was Christian. Even the belt buckles were inscribed with “Gott mit uns” (God with us).

There were far less chaplains in the German army in WWII as opposed to WWI.
  • The Wehrmacht had chaplains. SS did not, and Luftwaffe seldom had them
  • Around 1935, there were only 8 full-time chaplains (all denominations), supervised by two military bishops.
  • In 1942, there were some 480 Protestant chaplains and probably a similar number of Catholic chaplains; the total was roughly one-quarter of that in WW1.
  • It appears that no new chaplains were appointed after 1942
  • There were chaplains in non-German Waffen SS units
 
Like the fighting men, the chaplains were conscripted into military service. They had no choice. I imagine they did their best to serve God and Church amidst the brutality they witnessed. I do recall reading that many Catholic priests were in the death camps and work camps, and that Jesuit chaplains were kicked out of chaplain service.

Why don’t you do an Internet search on “military chaplains in Nazi Germany”?
This is true. Saint Maximilian Kolbe was in the concentration camps and he gave his life for the love of a neighbor, one of the people who was there. I believe that a family was going to have one of the parents killed but he volunteered to take his/her place. He is a martyr of charity. I believe he is a priest but I am not 100% sure on that. I do know he is a friar.

Saint Maximilian Kolbe, please pray for us.

Unfortunately I do not know how to answer the question of the OP.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top