Chapter 2 in Book of Daniel

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cathgal

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Curious to know how many know what this prophecy is saying:

"In your vision, O king, you saw a statue, very large and exceedingly bright, terrifying in appearance as it stood before you. 32 The head of the statue was pure gold, its chest and arms were silver, its belly and thighs bronze, 33 4 the legs iron, its feet partly iron and partly tile. 34 While you looked at the statue, a stone which was hewn from a mountain without a hand being put to it, struck its iron and tile feet, breaking them in pieces. 35 The iron, tile, bronze, silver, and gold all crumbled at once, fine as the chaff on the threshing floor in summer, and the wind blew them away without leaving a trace. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. 36 5 “This was the dream; the interpretation we shall also give in the king’s presence. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings; to you the God of heaven has given dominion and strength, power and glory; 38 men, wild beasts, and birds of the air, wherever they may dwell, he has handed over to you, making you ruler over them all; you are the head of gold. 39 Another kingdom shall take your place, inferior to yours, then a third kingdom, of bronze, which shall rule over the whole earth. 40 There shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; it shall break in pieces and subdue all these others, just as iron breaks in pieces and crushes everything else. 41 The feet and toes you saw, partly of potter’s tile and partly of iron, mean that it shall be a divided kingdom, but yet have some of the hardness of iron. As you saw the iron mixed with clay tile, 42 and the toes partly iron and partly tile, the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 The iron mixed with clay tile means that they shall seal their alliances by intermarriage, but they shall not stay united, any more than iron mixes with clay. 44 In the lifetime of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people; rather, it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and put an end to them, and it shall stand forever. 45 That is the meaning of the stone you saw hewn from the mountain without a hand being put to it, which broke in pieces the tile, iron, bronze, silver, and gold. The great God has revealed to the king what shall be in the future; this is exactly what you dreamed, and its meaning is sure.” 46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell down and worshiped Daniel and ordered sacrifice and incense offered to him.
 
From my understanding the statue(sp?) in it’s different makeup (gold, silver, bronze, tile, and metal) represent the four empires that take over the middle east at various times in history. Gold=Babylonian, silver=Persian, Bronze=Alexander the Great(Greek), tile and iron=Alexander’s generals that try to rule after his death through intermarriage and treaties. The mountain is a symbol of the Messianic kingdom to come. I’m not sure about the kingdoms as fact but study some history and a good Bible commentary on Daniel and it will help. This is my limited understanding. Hope it helps.
 
Gold: Babylon
Silver: Persian(Mede) Empire
Bronze: Hellenic Empire
Iron: Roman Empire
Iron and Tile: Roman and Byzantine Empires

Until Christ’s Church, all these powers ruled over Israel and the World in this very number and order, and the Church that Christ founded liberated the world and crumbled these powers and Christendom triumphed. The Role of St. Peter and the Church is fortold long before Christ while God’s chosen people were still in Babylonian captivity. A ROCK crumbles every earthly kingdom and fortells how the God’s kingdom will ultimately triumph through the Church.
 
cathgal, you’re right. I goofed. That’s why I recommended that the OP to do some reseach, particularly historical, to find the answers.

Though on an interesting note, I temporarily did a Bible study with a Calvary Chapel pastor on Daniel (a former friend/former college roommate asked and I was curious to see how others outside Catholicism viewed things). The pastor stated over and over again that the toes of clay and metal represented the European Union and that the Rapture was coming any day now. That was all he ever talked about. Rapture this, rapture that. I couldn’t figure out why anyone would believe that drivel and even worse put it forward as fact. Worse still, the man could telling me that the Rapture was clearly outlined in the Bible starting in Genesis! :eek: I laughed on the inside, kept a straight face, and told him I was never coming back. I hate broken records.

Sorry, I went off in the wrong direction.
 
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Pacbox:
cathgal, you’re right. I goofed. That’s why I recommended that the OP to do some reseach, particularly historical, to find the answers.

Though on an interesting note, I temporarily did a Bible study with a Calvary Chapel pastor on Daniel (a former friend/former college roommate asked and I was curious to see how others outside Catholicism viewed things). The pastor stated over and over again that the toes of clay and metal represented the European Union and that the Rapture was coming any day now. That was all he ever talked about. Rapture this, rapture that. I couldn’t figure out why anyone would believe that drivel and even worse put it forward as fact. Worse still, the man could telling me that the Rapture was clearly outlined in the Bible starting in Genesis! :eek: I laughed on the inside, kept a straight face, and told him I was never coming back. I hate broken records.

Sorry, I went off in the wrong direction.
I don’t see how his interpretation even come one iota close to what the prophecy foretold. Doesn’t he see the significant of the stone…destroying all the great kingdoms ?? Even if he sees it, he would not accept it cuz accepting means to admit that he’s wrong.

Yep, his interpretation is ludicrous ! :rotfl:
 
Thanks for the rolling laughing smiley. 😃

The pastor said he was raised Catholic (that may be about as true as the moon is made of cheese but I took the surface meaning of his word) but then found THE TRUTH! I think he just wanted to be his own pope and propogate his own interpretation of the truth.

Like I said, I laughed on the inside and kept a straight face with him. I did question his interpretation of it at one point and he told me that the Catholic Church had it ALL WRONG, that Protestantism (which he is a part of) had it ALL WRONG (I won’t argue the validity or falseness of Protestantism because it’s been done to death and I thought his comment was rude to Protestants who are decent and fair folk from what I know and understand), and that the truth was the Rapture. (Add cheesy horror music here.) He did this with Revelation. His congregation was being brainwashed and I felt so sorry for them. Calvary Chapel is heavy, heavy Rapture centric while, from what I’ve read, no self respecting Protestant believes the Rapture to be true.

I felt that I was dealing with a little kid who had to have his own way and that his words were the only truth to be believed. The only things I got out of the study was active studying of apologetics and I read most of Daniel. Oh, and I post on these forums.
 
Looking back now, I didn’t realize that you were the original OP, cathgal. You’ve been fun to post with in this thread. 😃
 
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Pacbox:
cathgal, you’re right. I goofed. That’s why I recommended that the OP to do some reseach, particularly historical, to find the answers.

Though on an interesting note, I temporarily did a Bible study with a Calvary Chapel pastor on Daniel (a former friend/former college roommate asked and I was curious to see how others outside Catholicism viewed things). The pastor stated over and over again that the toes of clay and metal represented the European Union and that the Rapture was coming any day now. That was all he ever talked about. Rapture this, rapture that. I couldn’t figure out why anyone would believe that drivel and even worse put it forward as fact. Worse still, the man could telling me that the Rapture was clearly outlined in the Bible starting in Genesis! :eek: I laughed on the inside, kept a straight face, and told him I was never coming back. I hate broken records.

Sorry, I went off in the wrong direction.

Calvary Chapel seems to be Dispie Pre-mill - or rather, Dispensational Premillenialist - in its understanding of Daniel.​

It would be very much more convenient if Christian theological vocabulary were not so full of sesquipedalian words such as
  • Dispensational Premillenialism
  • transubstantiation
  • canonisation
  • aphthartodocetism
  • Heilsgeschichte
  • Pneumatomachianism
  • and so on
 
Gottle of Greer, Calvary Chapel is HEAVILY Dispensational Pre-mill in their theology. At least the ones I’ve come into. The pastor I dealt with, that was all he would talk about. He also said that this believe was around since the time of Genesis. Which is VERY false. Look at their distinctives (their beliefs) and they list it:

www3.calvarychapel.com/forestgrove/distinctives.htm
 
Gold: Babylon
Silver: Persian(Mede) Empire
Bronze: Hellenic Empire
Iron: Roman Empire
Iron and Tile: Roman and Byzantine Empires

Until Christ’s Church, all these powers ruled over Israel and the World in this very number and order, and the Church that Christ founded liberated the world and crumbled these powers and Christendom triumphed. The Role of St. Peter and the Church is fortold long before Christ while God’s chosen people were still in Babylonian captivity. A ROCK crumbles every earthly kingdom and fortells how the God’s kingdom will ultimately triumph through the Church.
Is there any defined teaching on this from the Catholic Church. I was reading in the USCCB NAB version of the Bible online and found the footnotes on the statue quoted “The four successive kingdoms in this apocalyptic perspective are the Babylonian (gold), the Median (silver), the Persian (bronze), and the Hellenistic (iron). The last, after Alexander’s death, was divided among his generals (Daniel 2:41-42). The two resulting kingdoms, which most affected the Jews, were the dynasty of the Ptolemies in Egypt and that of the Seleucids in Syria, who tried in vain, by war and through intermarriage, to restore the unity of Alexander’s empire (Daniel 2:43). The stone hewn from the mountain is the messianic kingdom awaited by the Jews (Daniel 2:44-45). Our Lord made this image personal to himself; cf Luke 20:17-18.”

It seems like it is a little different timeline. We had some 7th Day Adventist come to our house and they had the timeline of what you had, but added that this prophecy came true because of Europe is still not united even through marriages.
 
I was reading in the USCCB NAB version of the Bible online and found the footnotes
There are two major approaches to the Book of Daniel. One believes that it is actually true, the other believes that it is fables and “prophecy after the fact.” You can instantly tell which kind of commentary you are reading by checking to see what it says regarding Daniel’s date. If it claims that the book was written by Daniel the prophet in the sixth century B.C., that is a commentary that believes the book is actually true. On the other hand, if it claims that Daniel was written by some unknown person(s) in the second century B.C. during the Maccabean revolt against Alexander the Great, then that writer is in the crowd that believes the book is fables and phony prophecy (such as someone producing a “diary” wherein he claims in a 1998 entry that God told him about the coming attack on 9/11/01).
 
I’m looking at a time line with pictures of the statue from left to right. There are Dates with historical events above the parts of the statue. Let me try to describe it and tell me if this stuff makes sense.

Gold head of Babylon
604 bc Daniel deported to Babylon

Silver chest of Medo-Persia
539 bc Babylon conquered by Medo-Persia
457 bc Persian decree to rebuild Jerusalem
444 bc Nehemiah begins rebuilding

Bronze stomach and thighs of Greece
167 bc Greek Antiochus desecrates Temple

Iron and clay legs and feet
142 bc Jews win independence
54 bc Roman Ponpey sacks Temple
10 bc Herod’s Temple completed
4 bc Incarnation of Christ

The stone
4 bc Incarnation of Christ
30 ad Passion of Christ

Stone strikes the statue and destory it
64 ad Nero torches Rome
67-70 ad Titus destroys Temple
136 ad Jerusalem destroyed

Stone grows into a world wide mountain
136 ad thru 476 ad Rome defeated
 
The dates are accurate enough, but mostly overkill. Conservative commentators will agree on the identity of the four kingdoms, but the details within each one are not important to the prophecy.

The exception to this is the timing of the great stone which strikes the fourth kingdom. The chart you presented says that the striking has already occurred and that Christ’s kingdom has become a great mountain that has filled the whole earth. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists usually believe that that event is still future, and that the second coming of Christ will strike a world-wide kingdom of antichrist, a reconstituted Roman empire. It’s the Left Behind scenario, minus some of the dramatic flourishes.
 
I’m looking at a time line with pictures of the statue from left to right. There are Dates with historical events above the parts of the statue. Let me try to describe it and tell me if this stuff makes sense.

Gold head of Babylon

Silver chest of Medo-Persia

Bronze stomach and thighs of Greece

Iron and clay legs and feet

The stone

Stone strikes the statue and destory it

Stone grows into a world wide mountain
Here is another one talking about (Daniel 7:1 -12:13) which says it is a recapitulation of the first vision. Instead of dealing with all five visions it deals with the first, third, and fifth. Just replace the above images with these.

Lion of Babylon

Bear of Medo- Persia

Leopard of Greece

Ugly beast of Rome

Son of Man’s coming

One little horn Describes Nero
54 ad becomes Caesar and kills three royal people
64 ad begins Great Tribulation against the Church
67 ad Jewish-Roman War begins
68 ad ends dynasty in suicide
70 ad Jewish-Roman War ends

The saints posseses the Kingdom

I thought it was interesting that the statue vision is re-explained from a different perspective using this vision.

I find it even more fascinating that the book of Revelation is a retelling of these visions using the same outline.
 
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