Charasmatic

[PodunkMommy]

Hello:

I put this under Liturgy because I know there are Charasmatic Liturgies out there. At first I thought I should put it under spirituality because there are charasmatic prayer groups as well.

I have done a search on the subject but what I’ve found so far don’t seem to be “calming my fears” so to speak.

I would consider myself an orthodox Catholic. If it were up to me I’d be attending an Eastern Liturgy like the Byzantine Rite or even a Tridentine Mass. I do seem to be more called to the Eastern Rite. But for the sake of my family and what bonds us, we attend the Novus Ordo.

One of our parishes had a charasmatic priest years ago and my husband and I were both very uncomfortable. We did not feel like we belonged. I also have been very confused with the speaking in tongues because the tongues that the speak of in the bible is tongues of different languages so the apostles could speak to those of foreign languages. These tongues nowadays aren’t foreign languages. That is very confusing to me.

Ok, now fast forward. I go to a retreat on the Holy Spirit. There’s a lot of singing (which I like) and it’s kind of different, but I really enjoyed it and it spoke to my heart, only to realize half way through that it was Charasmatic. I guess it wasn’t as “charasmatic” as usual because many of the people who were there, it was there first time.

I would not have gone had I realized. Now, I do not think Mass is the place for this, but I was definately moved. I was told this is even sanctioned by our Bishop and he is very orthodox.

I guess I just have some conflicting emotions going on.

I just would like some thoughts.

Thanks and God bless.

 

[hazcompat]

try this

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2CHARS.HTM

peace

 

[hazcompat]

or this might be better

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP961109.HTM

peace

 

[FAB]

Hello:

I put this under Liturgy because I know there are Charasmatic Liturgies out there. At first I thought I should put it under spirituality because there are charasmatic prayer groups as well.

I have done a search on the subject but what I’ve found so far don’t seem to be “calming my fears” so to speak.

I would consider myself an orthodox Catholic. If it were up to me I’d be attending an Eastern Liturgy like the Byzantine Rite or even a Tridentine Mass. I do seem to be more called to the Eastern Rite. But for the sake of my family and what bonds us, we attend the Novus Ordo.

One of our parishes had a charasmatic priest years ago and my husband and I were both very uncomfortable. We did not feel like we belonged. I also have been very confused with the speaking in tongues because the tongues that the speak of in the bible is tongues of different languages so the apostles could speak to those of foreign languages. These tongues nowadays aren’t foreign languages. That is very confusing to me.

Ok, now fast forward. I go to a retreat on the Holy Spirit. There’s a lot of singing (which I like) and it’s kind of different, but I really enjoyed it and it spoke to my heart, only to realize half way through that it was Charasmatic. I guess it wasn’t as “charasmatic” as usual because many of the people who were there, it was there first time.

I would not have gone had I realized. Now, I do not think Mass is the place for this, but I was definately moved. I was told this is even sanctioned by our Bishop and he is very orthodox.

I guess I just have some conflicting emotions going on.

I just would like some thoughts.

Thanks and God bless.

I can understand how you could be unconforatable with many of those who call them Chrismatic and often what they do.
The Chrisms of which they speak come from the Holy Spirit, specifaclly form as stated in Paul’s letters to the Corinthians. The music us in mass is very upbeat , whorship and praise. The priest at our our Chrismatic center do maintain the liturgy of the mass per the rites, but you are likely to see a lot of raising of hands in praise.
They do believe, and I have seen the gift of healing which comes through prayer.
Waht is most disturbing to most is the idea of speaking in tongues. This is one area that I part ways with them. I see the gift as the one given at pentecost, when the apostles were able to speak to the many differnt cultures present, it was the bring of people together under on church, under Christ, the opposite of the what happened at the tower of babble. They also seem to fail to read further in Paul’s letter who warns agains speaking in tongues if it is just babble which not one can understand, that unless it speads the word of God in an understandable way, it should not be done.
The movement has been around for years and is sactioned. There has been a great deal of fruit produced for the movement, often bring in people to the faith who are on the fringes.
The reatreats focus on the Holy Spirit, but also on sin and the need to turn away from sin and to turn to Christ, ending with the laying on of hands and asking the Spirit for healing, being “baptized in the Spirit”. The retreats oalso lead people to accept the teeaching of the church and to recieve the sacraments.
It’s not everyone’s cup of tea and often for many, hard to accept, but the Spirit works in many ways to meet the needs of God’s people.

 

[gtrenewed]

I can understand how you could be unconforatable with many of those who call them Chrismatic and often what they do.
The Chrisms of which they speak come from the Holy Spirit, specifaclly form as stated in Paul’s letters to the Corinthians. The music us in mass is very upbeat , whorship and praise. The priest at our our Chrismatic center do maintain the liturgy of the mass per the rites, but you are likely to see a lot of raising of hands in praise.
They do believe, and I have seen the gift of healing which comes through prayer.
Waht is most disturbing to most is the idea of speaking in tongues. This is one area that I part ways with them. I see the gift as the one given at pentecost, when the apostles were able to speak to the many differnt cultures present, it was the bring of people together under on church, under Christ, the opposite of the what happened at the tower of babble. They also seem to fail to read further in Paul’s letter who warns agains speaking in tongues if it is just babble which not one can understand, that unless it speads the word of God in an understandable way, it should not be done.
The movement has been around for years and is sactioned. There has been a great deal of fruit produced for the movement, often bring in people to the faith who are on the fringes.
The reatreats focus on the Holy Spirit, but also on sin and the need to turn away from sin and to turn to Christ, ending with the laying on of hands and asking the Spirit for healing, being “baptized in the Spirit”. The retreats oalso lead people to accept the teeaching of the church and to recieve the sacraments.
It’s not everyone’s cup of tea and often for many, hard to accept, but the Spirit works in many ways to meet the needs of God’s people.

A fair explanation for one who is not part of the renewal, except what I bolded and underlined. I would point you to these scriptures:

1Cor 13:1 - here St. Paul says there are two kinds of tongues - men and angels;

1Cor 14:2 - here St. Paul says that there is a tongue that speaks to God and not to men;

1Cor 14:4 - here St. Paul says that there is a tongue that edifies the one who prays in it;

From this and other scriptures we understand that there is a tongue that is a prayer language, that is different from the tongue that is in a known language.

This prayer language is what is commonly heard at Charismatic meetings. Sometimes God communicates to everyone through this private prayer language but there must be an interprettion by someone whom God has given the understanding at that time.

 

[FAB]

A fair explanation for one who is not part of the renewal, except what I bolded and underlined. I would point you to these scriptures:

1Cor 13:1 - here St. Paul says there are two kinds of tongues - men and angels;

1Cor 14:2 - here St. Paul says that there is a tongue that speaks to God and not to men;

1Cor 14:4 - here St. Paul says that there is a tongue that edifies the one who prays in it;

From this and other scriptures we understand that there is a tongue that is a prayer language, that is different from the tongue that is in a known language.

This prayer language is what is commonly heard at Charismatic meetings. Sometimes God communicates to everyone through this private prayer language but there must be an interprettion by someone whom God has given the understanding at that time.

I’m very away of the movements expaination of tongues, Ive been in this briar bush before and I am very familar with the movement.
1 Cor 13:1 Angelic tongues does not mean that there is a language of the angels.
1 Cor 14:4-5 the one who prophesis is greater than tongues, since he builds the church
This is a warning about speaking in tongues since 1 cor 4:2 for no one listens
1 Cor 14:9 those who utter intelligible speak…will be talking to the air.
1 Cor 14:10-12 Paul speaks of many languages all which have meaning, he is warning again to focus on speading the word with known languages and use the gifts of the Spirit to do so.
1 Cor 14:19 "in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in the tongue.
1 Cor 14:20 another warning “stop being childish in your thinking”
1 Cor 14:22 “tongues are a sign not of those who believe but for unbelievers, whereas prophecy is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.”
My favorite on Pauls warning against speaking in tongues
1 Cor 14:23 so if everyone meets in one place and every one speaks in tongues, and then uninstructed people or unbelievers should come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind.
It is becomes clear from Paul’s letter that he felt that speaking in tongues was the least important of the gifts, and that it should be advoided.
It is the flaw of the Chrismatic movement that has latched onto it.

 

[jilly4ski]

Hello:

I put this under Liturgy because I know there are Charasmatic Liturgies out there. At first I thought I should put it under spirituality because there are charasmatic prayer groups as well.

I have done a search on the subject but what I’ve found so far don’t seem to be “calming my fears” so to speak.

I would consider myself an orthodox Catholic. If it were up to me I’d be attending an Eastern Liturgy like the Byzantine Rite or even a Tridentine Mass. I do seem to be more called to the Eastern Rite. But for the sake of my family and what bonds us, we attend the Novus Ordo.

One of our parishes had a charasmatic priest years ago and my husband and I were both very uncomfortable. We did not feel like we belonged. I also have been very confused with the speaking in tongues because the tongues that the speak of in the bible is tongues of different languages so the apostles could speak to those of foreign languages. These tongues nowadays aren’t foreign languages. That is very confusing to me.

Ok, now fast forward. I go to a retreat on the Holy Spirit. There’s a lot of singing (which I like) and it’s kind of different, but I really enjoyed it and it spoke to my heart, only to realize half way through that it was Charasmatic. I guess it wasn’t as “charasmatic” as usual because many of the people who were there, it was there first time.

I would not have gone had I realized. Now, I do not think Mass is the place for this, but I was definately moved. I was told this is even sanctioned by our Bishop and he is very orthodox.

I guess I just have some conflicting emotions going on.

I just would like some thoughts.

Thanks and God bless.

I grew up in a parish like this. Lots of music and praise and worship. Lots of being slain in the spirit, and laying of hands, and speaking in tongues. There was a great focus on the holy spirit. The parish got a new priest who is more reserved very orthodox etc. The parish also do things by the book (except that they have a color guard and guitar/drums music).

I am very grateful to that parish, it taught me fidelity to the church and to know the Holy Spirit, as well as a great spirituality. That spirituality does not help my growth right now, but I am very grateful that I had that when I was a teen and needed to “feel” things. If this helps you now, then embrace that. It probably won’t last forever, but that is ok too. We are given this things we need when we need them.

 

[gtrenewed]

I’m very away of the movements expaination of tongues, Ive been in this briar bush before and I am very familar with the movement.
1 Cor 13:1 Angelic tongues does not mean that there is a language of the angels.
1 Cor 14:4-5 the one who prophesis is greater than tongues, since he builds the church
This is a warning about speaking in tongues since 1 cor 4:2 for no one listens
1 Cor 14:9 those who utter intelligible speak…will be talking to the air.
1 Cor 14:10-12 Paul speaks of many languages all which have meaning, he is warning again to focus on speading the word with known languages and use the gifts of the Spirit to do so.
1 Cor 14:19 "in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in the tongue.
1 Cor 14:20 another warning “stop being childish in your thinking”
1 Cor 14:22 “tongues are a sign not of those who believe but for unbelievers, whereas prophecy is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.”
My favorite on Pauls warning against speaking in tongues
1 Cor 14:23 so if everyone meets in one place and every one speaks in tongues, and then uninstructed people or unbelievers should come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind.
It is becomes clear from Paul’s letter that he felt that speaking in tongues was the least important of the gifts, and that it should be advoided.
It is the flaw of the Chrismatic movement that has latched onto it.

You have taken Paul’s instruction for tongues out of context, he is not against tongues, for he said “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all;”

It is important to take the entire body of scripture in context. All of chapter 14 in 1Cor is a teaching on spiritual gifts. Paul summarizes his teaching on tongues with; “What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.”

You are not seeing scripture as clearly as you say you are; nor are tongues a flaw, for they are from God who is not flawed. If some misuse gifts, this does not invalidate them. In chapter 11 of 1Cor they were misusing the eucharist but the eucharist is not flawed. Where there is misuse, teaching by the mature should correct it just as Paul did.

Whatever your bias against the renewal is, I hope it can be resolved for the Charismatic Renewal is approved at the highest levels of the Church.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I have one question. I came into Catholicism through the Assemblies of God which is a Pentacostal denomination. They believe that the “prayer of tongues” is evidence of the Baptism of the Spirit in Fire.

Do Charismatic Catholics believe such?

If so then how do they respond to Paul’s teaching that not everyone receives the same Gifts?

Also if they believe in the Baptism of the Spirit how does this fit with the Creed’s “One Baptism for the remission of sins”?

Is there a stigma attached to those not praying in tongues? That is are they viewed as less or treated differently? (This was my experience in the Assemblies of God)

I have been thinking to attending a local Charismatic prayer group and going to a Healing Service.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I’m very away of the movements expaination of tongues, Ive been in this briar bush before and I am very familar with the movement.
1 Cor 13:1 Angelic tongues does not mean that there is a language of the angels.
1 Cor 14:4-5 the one who prophesis is greater than tongues, since he builds the church
This is a warning about speaking in tongues since 1 cor 4:2 for no one listens
1 Cor 14:9 those who utter intelligible speak…will be talking to the air.
1 Cor 14:10-12 Paul speaks of many languages all which have meaning, he is warning again to focus on speading the word with known languages and use the gifts of the Spirit to do so.
1 Cor 14:19 "in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in the tongue.
1 Cor 14:20 another warning “stop being childish in your thinking”
1 Cor 14:22 “tongues are a sign not of those who believe but for unbelievers, whereas prophecy is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.”
My favorite on Pauls warning against speaking in tongues
1 Cor 14:23 so if everyone meets in one place and every one speaks in tongues, and then uninstructed people or unbelievers should come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind.
It is becomes clear from Paul’s letter that he felt that speaking in tongues was the least important of the gifts, and that it should be advoided.
It is the flaw of the Chrismatic movement that has latched onto it.

It is NOT clear that Paul feels that speaking in tongues should be “avoided”–that is your spin on it. He advocates restraint and order in the use of them, and says nothing about avoiding them. You have selectively quoted only part of that chapter. In verses 26 and following he sets down the rules for the use of tongues in public, and in verse 39 he explicitly states “…do not forbid speaking in tongues, but everything must be done properly and in order” (NAB).

Also you omitted verse 18, which states “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you” which precedes verse 19 in which he states he would rather speak 5 words with his mind so as to instruct others when he is at a service.

It is not the way of Catholics to interpret the Scriptures by picking and choosing and quoting to support whatever position they have. That is a method used often in fundamentalism, not Catholicism. All of it is the Word of God whether we like the words or not. It needs to be read in it’s entirety and in context. The fact is, the early Church did use tongues and they were NOT forbidden or to be avoided. They were to be used with restraint and in order, and St. Paul spoke in tongues more than any of them. That is inconsistent with your assertion that he advocates the gift of tongues should be avoided.

You may not like the use of tongues or the Charismatic renewal, many people don’t, but that is no excuse to not quote all of what St Paul had to say about the matter and tell the truth.

 

[gtrenewed]

I have one question. I came into Catholicism through the Assemblies of God which is a Pentacostal denomination. They believe that the “prayer of tongues” is evidence of the Baptism of the Spirit in Fire.

Do Charismatic Catholics believe such?

If so then how do they respond to Paul’s teaching that not everyone receives the same Gifts?

Also if they believe in the Baptism of the Spirit how does this fit with the Creed’s “One Baptism for the remission of sins”?

Is there a stigma attached to those not praying in tongues? That is are they viewed as less or treated differently? (This was my experience in the Assemblies of God)

I have been thinking to attending a local Charismatic prayer group and going to a Healing Service.

The Assemblies also used to believe that tongues was necessary for salvation but have backed off of that.

Tongues are manifested in two ways - one as the gift of tongues, such as those at Pentecost; and a private, personal tongue prayer language available to everyone “baptised” in the Spirit.

There is one baptism for the remission of sins, water baptism. Jesus said that He was going to baptize with the Holy Spirit also. That is where that comes from; however, as Catholics we believe we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism and confirmation. So the Catholic Charismatic Renewal believes that we are releasing by faith the gifts that are lying dormant but are identifing it as a Holy Spirit baptism.

I would encourage you to attend a prayer meeting and healing service. In the Body of Christ there is no less or more. We have need of each other. You may feel left out but I assure you no mature Charismatic looks at you that way. We are all on a journey, praying in tongues (also called praying in the Spirit) has helped me tremendously grow in Christ.

Some have problems receiving their prayer language. Some feel frustrated by this or feel that God is punishing them. I did not receive my prayer language right away but my wife did. I just kept seeking God and it came. Remember we have an adversary that does not want us to receive power or anything from God.

If I was at your prayer meeting I would encourage you to ask questions respectfully as one that wants to learn. If after awhile you do not feel drawn to the Renewal then I would say God Bless on your journey and see you at Mass.

 

[Elizium23]

The parish got a new priest who is more reserved very orthodox etc. The parish also do things by the book (except that they have a color guard

What is that supposed to mean? That a color guard is not “by the book”? The Knights of Columbus are a highly respected organization in the Church, and we provide a color guard frequently. What is wrong with a color guard?

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I have one question. I came into Catholicism through the Assemblies of God which is a Pentacostal denomination. They believe that the “prayer of tongues” is evidence of the Baptism of the Spirit in Fire.

Do Charismatic Catholics believe such? We don’t use the term “Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Fire” so I’m not sure what you mean. Many people who receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit do pray in tongues; others don’t.

If so then how do they respond to Paul’s teaching that not everyone receives the same Gifts?
The gifts Paul is speaking about there are those which are given to build up the church. The gift of speaking in tongues would be one of these and would be rare. It is used for communicating the word of God.
I think most charismatics feel that the gift of praying in tongues is available to those who have been filled with the Holy Spirit if they ask for this gift and are open to receive it.

Also if they believe in the Baptism of the Spirit how does this fit with the Creed’s “One Baptism for the remission of sins”? The term ‘baptism of the Holy Spirit’ is an experience of the power of the Holy Spirit (whom we received in Baptism and Confirmation) becoming more active in our life as we yield to Him. It isn’t the sacrament of Baptism which is for the remission of our sins.

Is there a stigma attached to those not praying in tongues? That is are they viewed as less or treated differently? (This was my experience in the Assemblies of God)Although many charismatic Catholics pray in tongues publicly in prayer meetings or privately it isn’t required to do so. No, there’s no stigma attached to not praying in tongues; some people praise God in their own words, not tongues. Those who don’t pray in tongues aren’t looked down on.

I have been thinking to attending a local Charismatic prayer group and going to a Healing Service. Attending a prayer group that is both faithful to the Church and filled with the Holy Spirit is a great blessing, as are prayers for healing.

 

[archangel04]

A fair explanation for one who is not part of the renewal, except what I bolded and underlined. I would point you to these scriptures:

1Cor 13:1 - here St. Paul says there are two kinds of tongues - men and angels;

1Cor 14:2 - here St. Paul says that there is a tongue that speaks to God and not to men;

1Cor 14:4 - here St. Paul says that there is a tongue that edifies the one who prays in it;

From this and other scriptures we understand that there is a tongue that is a prayer language, that is different from the tongue that is in a known language.

This prayer language is what is commonly heard at Charismatic meetings. Sometimes God communicates to everyone through this private prayer language but there must be an interprettion by someone whom God has given the understanding at that time.

I heard from many theologians that the “tounues” is not angelic speaking. In my opinion it’s just blah blah blah. The mind can be very powerful, convince it enough that you are a chicken and you will literally (in your mind) be a chicken. This is the same as those who “claim” to be possesed, it all in the mind. The mind triggers the appropriate responce, there have been many studies on this. Sad I don’t have the sources

 

[ClayPots47]

I guess I just have some conflicting emotions going on.

I just would like some thoughts.

Thanks and God bless.

Many people unfamiliar with the movement are confused about the gift/charism of tongues, what they don’t realize, is that there are two separate tongues. The tongues you are referencing in your post, are the apostolic tongues. These consist of prophecy (a message), and are either understood by others, or interpreted by others. The tongues you heard were probably prayer tongues, which frequently are sung, while apostolic tongues are spoken. If your Bishop sanctioned the event, then the Mass you attended should have been the Ordinary Form/Novus Ordo following the GIRM with several opportunities for praise prayer consisting of prayer tongues, ejaculations and acclamations. That is what a Charismatic liturgy is, the liturgy may be followed by Exposition, Benediction, Healing service, etc. Or some of the above may have preceded the Mass. The presiding priest sets the tone for when/where prayer tongues takes place.

There isn’t a universal pattern; by my experience in the two diocese’ I lived in, it was after the Entrance hymn, but before the presider begins the Mass with the sign of the cross, and at the elevation of the Host then the Chalice, following the Consecration. For those who don’t pray in tongues, use your favorite ejaculatory prayer or spontaneous acclamation. There were probably many other congregants present that also weren’t familiar with the charisms and tongues. The Charismatic Renewal has been fully endorsed by the Church and the three most recent popes. There is even an international committee with statutes approved by John Paul II. But it isn’t for everybody, and people do drift in and out of the movement. Many parish Charismatic prayer groups conduct retreats and healing liturgies, An OF Mass using elements of charismatic worship is part of these. They are open to anyone to attend. It is your choice to attend, or not. And it is perfectly fine to feel uncomfortable or confused regarding an experience with which you are unfamiliar.

 

[ClayPots47]

I have one question. I came into Catholicism through the Assemblies of God which is a Pentacostal denomination. They believe that the “prayer of tongues” is evidence of the Baptism of the Spirit in Fire.

Do Charismatic Catholics believe such?.

If so then how do they respond to Paul’s teaching that not everyone receives the same Gifts?.

Catholic Charismatics should not believe that, if they have been properly catechized through an approved Life in the Spirit Seminar. Unfortunately, elements of Protestant Pentecostalism has crept in to some Catholic prayer groups. I did not receive prayer tongues upon being baptized in the Holy Spirit after completing the Archdiocesan approved Life in the Spirit Seminar. I clearly received the baptism, but the tongues did not manifest themselves until much later. The apostolic tongues may not be exercised by all, as well as charisms for healing, prophecy, teaching, etc.No conflict with Paul’s teaching.

Also if they believe in the Baptism of the Spirit how does this fit with the Creed’s “One Baptism for the remission of sins”?

Is there a stigma attached to those not praying in tongues? That is are they viewed as less or treated differently? (This was my experience in the Assemblies of God)

I have been thinking to attending a local Charismatic prayer group and going to a Healing Service.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a sacrament, but is related to the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. It is an awakening of the gifts bestowed upon us when we received the Sacraments of Initiation. No one should be treating anyone less because they do not pray in tongues. A Catholic Charismatic who does, is not acting appropriately. Individuals in the movement, have been affected by incorrect Protestant Pentecostal teachings. You can substitute your favorite ejaculations or acclamations in place of tongues, and probably no one will notice. Charismatics often mix up the three during praise prayer.If they are having a Healing Service, most likely there will be the laying on of hands for prayer. Many people Rest in the Spirit. You are probably more familiar with “Slain in the Spirit” as a former AoG. In Catholic Charismatic circles, it is a gentle yield to the spirit, and many people fall. It is quiet; no barking, jerking, howling, flailing or any of the things often seen at Pentecostal events. You do not have to participate, and if you do, you don’t have to rest in the Spirit.

If it’s a normal Catholic Charismatic service, it will be a bit more subdued than Pentecostal services. The Mass will be OF with set periods for praise prayer in tongues or ejaculations and/or acclamations. I hope the group sponsoring the Healing Service is a good group that sponsors an appropriate liturgy that is faithful to the Church. And that you find the experience to be uplifting.

 

[mike1987]

Really nice one.

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[jilly4ski]

What is that supposed to mean? That a color guard is not “by the book”? The Knights of Columbus are a highly respected organization in the Church, and we provide a color guard frequently. What is wrong with a color guard?

lol, I use “color guard” as a more charitable reference to the girls they have prancing up and down the aisle with banners and flags. A remnant of a liberal liturgical director.

 

[FAB]

You have taken Paul’s instruction for tongues out of context, he is not against tongues, for he said “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all;”

It is important to take the entire body of scripture in context. All of chapter 14 in 1Cor is a teaching on spiritual gifts. Paul summarizes his teaching on tongues with; “What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.”

You are not seeing scripture as clearly as you say you are; nor are tongues a flaw, for they are from God who is not flawed. If some misuse gifts, this does not invalidate them. In chapter 11 of 1Cor they were misusing the eucharist but the eucharist is not flawed. Where there is misuse, teaching by the mature should correct it just as Paul did.

Whatever your bias against the renewal is, I hope it can be resolved for the Charismatic Renewal is approved at the highest levels of the Church.

I stated that I believe the movement has great fruits.
I also think that the focus on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as taught by Paul was not speaking in tongues.
the gifts of the spirit are clearly for the benefit of the entire community , and by the way not just those listed by Paul.
Those who have “received” this gift treat it as a they have gotten some type of personal connection which is only between them and God. As Paul indicated, if the gift does not spread the word of God in an understandable way it is useless.

The movement in general has been approved, but that does not every indicate that practices in the movement should not come under review.

 

[FAB]

You have taken Paul’s instruction for tongues out of context, he is not against tongues, for he said “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all;”

It is important to take the entire body of scripture in context. All of chapter 14 in 1Cor is a teaching on spiritual gifts. Paul summarizes his teaching on tongues with; “What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.”

You are not seeing scripture as clearly as you say you are; nor are tongues a flaw, for they are from God who is not flawed. If some misuse gifts, this does not invalidate them. In chapter 11 of 1Cor they were misusing the eucharist but the eucharist is not flawed. Where there is misuse, teaching by the mature should correct it just as Paul did.

Whatever your bias against the renewal is, I hope it can be resolved for the Charismatic Renewal is approved at the highest levels of the Church.

a study of Paul’s relationship with the Corinthians is that he often admonishing them for their practices and working to get things right. The full section on the gifts of the Spirit seems to be just this.
He starts out talking about the gifts, all the others are listed before tongues , which means he sees it as the least of the gifts. He does say he speaks in tongues then adds his buts, prophecy and spreading the word understandably is more important. Chapter 14 makes this very clear.
I think the same admonishment needs to given to the Charismatic renewal, it’s focus on the least of the gifts keeps them from doing greater things.
I don’t have a bias against the movement. When a teenager I was involved with it, back in the seventies, but it was much different. It helped shape by beliefs and my love for the church because it showed me there was a different way to worship than the more traditional style.
I didn’t revisit it until a few years ago, and it is now nothing like the one I had loved. It has turned into a in your face renewal, and if anyone questions it, Like myself , then the answer is you just don’t get it. I have been to a Life in the Spirit retreat and found it a real turn off. Since that time I had been looking for answers, and found them in the same letters that Paul described the gifts.
As an Deacon, I have tried to come from this as unbiased as possible. I have prayed about it, and yes I have had my own encounters with the Holy Spirit, receiving His gifts, but not through “baptism in the Spirit” through personal reflection and prayer, as well as in the sacraments of Confirmation and Holy Orders.