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Evania
Guest
I’m curious to learn the differences and similarities between a Charismatic Catholic and a Traditional Catholic. It would be interesting to hear from both.
Thank you and God Bless.
Thank you and God Bless.
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Lady_Love
Guest
I have had experience being a traditional Catholic who attended Latin Masses and Charismatic by attending a Cursillo and other charismatic prayer groups.
I have encompassed both of them into my spirituality. I have a profound appreciation for ritual and discipline, which I learned from the Traditional but I also have the freedom to let the Holy Spirit move me however He wishes, which I learned from the Charismatic.
I think to be one or the other only hurts yourself. I think both need to be embraced to have a well balanced perspective of Catholicism.
I have encompassed both of them into my spirituality. I have a profound appreciation for ritual and discipline, which I learned from the Traditional but I also have the freedom to let the Holy Spirit move me however He wishes, which I learned from the Charismatic.
I think to be one or the other only hurts yourself. I think both need to be embraced to have a well balanced perspective of Catholicism.
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Windmill
Guest
I think many in the Charismatic and Traditionalist movements are victims of the same thing: the failure of mainstream Catholicism to capture the mystical and the divine and bring that to bear in their worship. Catholics who know what is occurring in the spiritual world at Mass fail to see that played out in the visible world at Mass. So, in their disappointment, they seek other means of touching the Divine. They either go to Charismatic Masses where people place a high regard on the experience of the Holy Spirit on an emotional level, or they seek the Traditional Latin Mass where they are connected to centuries of saints before them and feel a sense of sanctity in the Latin, the rigorous prayers, the quietness, and the attention to detail.
Either way, both “types” have a high regard for the sacramental life - but they have their dangers. The extreme forms of Charismatic Catholicism can place the “feeling” of the Holy Spirit in higher regard than the sacramental life. They pray for deliverance, speak in “tongues”, and search after an emotional high to confirm their faith, rather than going to confession and learning the doctrines of their faith. The extreme forms of Traditionalism can place too high a regard for the outward forms of sacraments to the point of legalism…they forget the power of the Holy Spirit and the need for conversion of heart, and in stead they trust in ritual purity without the struggle for charity and conversion.
Both extremes are to be avoided. However, both forms of Catholicism have a lot to teach the average Catholic in mainstream parishes about devoting their lives to the pursuit of holiness.
Either way, both “types” have a high regard for the sacramental life - but they have their dangers. The extreme forms of Charismatic Catholicism can place the “feeling” of the Holy Spirit in higher regard than the sacramental life. They pray for deliverance, speak in “tongues”, and search after an emotional high to confirm their faith, rather than going to confession and learning the doctrines of their faith. The extreme forms of Traditionalism can place too high a regard for the outward forms of sacraments to the point of legalism…they forget the power of the Holy Spirit and the need for conversion of heart, and in stead they trust in ritual purity without the struggle for charity and conversion.
Both extremes are to be avoided. However, both forms of Catholicism have a lot to teach the average Catholic in mainstream parishes about devoting their lives to the pursuit of holiness.
I am both traditional and charismatic. The charismatic instilled in me the love for scripture and the desire to be led by the Holy Spirit. But the traditional keeps me in touch with my Catholic heritage, the beauty of liturgical prayer and love of the Church, her liturgy and her authority. The traditional is a check against the excesses of the charismatic, keeping me grounded within the authority of the Church, properly discerning of the spiritual gifts, not depending on emotion, and appropriate behaviour (no oinking in the Spirit). The charismatic is a check against rigidity and long-facedness which can sometimes be found among those of the traditional stripe.
Both movements are important in my life and I believe they both contribute to my spiritual growth.
Both movements are important in my life and I believe they both contribute to my spiritual growth.
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judynurse
Guest
I am interested in this thread because I am Catholic, pre-Vatican II but now attend Mass and serve as a Eucharistic Minister & work in Grief Support in my Parish. (I’m a retired Nurse who worked in Hospice and a widow.)
Back around 1972, I became a Charismatic without ever knowing such a designation existed, following a dream which kept referring me to some verses in the NT. After the dream repeated for 3 nights, I looked up the verses, which led me to others, which led me to what some refer to as the “Baptism of the Spirit”, or an enhanced knowledge of the love of Christ and the Father.
It was years before I even knew there was anyone else who did the same thing!
I am also yearning for the Traditional Mass again. I think there might be a Tridentine Mass in a town 50 miles from me, which is held once a month. I think I’d like to attend when I can (winter weather on the roads allowing). However, I’m very invested in my local Parish in a small town, and would not want to leave it permanently, until I must find a retirement home. I have never attended a “Charismatic Mass” or weekend, the only one in this state is about 6 hrs. away in a large city with heavy traffic, which I’m afraid of driving to. Are there many Traditional Catholics who are also Charismatic?
To me, the “charismatic” was an additional level of my Catholicism, not something separate.
Am I wrong?
Back around 1972, I became a Charismatic without ever knowing such a designation existed, following a dream which kept referring me to some verses in the NT. After the dream repeated for 3 nights, I looked up the verses, which led me to others, which led me to what some refer to as the “Baptism of the Spirit”, or an enhanced knowledge of the love of Christ and the Father.
It was years before I even knew there was anyone else who did the same thing!
I am also yearning for the Traditional Mass again. I think there might be a Tridentine Mass in a town 50 miles from me, which is held once a month. I think I’d like to attend when I can (winter weather on the roads allowing). However, I’m very invested in my local Parish in a small town, and would not want to leave it permanently, until I must find a retirement home. I have never attended a “Charismatic Mass” or weekend, the only one in this state is about 6 hrs. away in a large city with heavy traffic, which I’m afraid of driving to. Are there many Traditional Catholics who are also Charismatic?
To me, the “charismatic” was an additional level of my Catholicism, not something separate.
Am I wrong?
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Dorothy
Guest
I agree. I learned a lot about the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit through the renewal. The charismatic gifts we receive are meant to build up other members of the Body of Christ.
The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit that we receive are for ourselves.
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Evania
Guest
Thank you all for your responses! One final question: What does it mean to be baptized in the Holy Spirit? Is this something seperate than regular baptism? How does a person do this?
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judynurse
Guest
I don’t know how people involved in the Charismatic Renewal do the prayer for the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”, but since I had never heard of the Renewal when I “became” Charismatic, I can tell you what happened to me.
I read Scriptures in the NT which referred to the “Baptism of the Spirit”, especially at Pentecost, and when the Apostles laid hands on converts and prayed for them to “receive the Spirit”. I didn’t have an Apostle handy (!! I was a bit literal-minded at the time, and young!) so I simply found a quiet place at home, kneeled and prayed for the “Baptism of the Spirit” so I could be closer to the Lord. I had read that some people in the NT were given many spiritual gifts, including the “gift of tongues”, so I “hedged” my prayer, asking Jesus to fill me with His Holy Spirit, but “please don’t give me this strange gift, as I don’t want to sound weird”. LOL
The Baptism of the Spirit, as it is referred to, felt to me as though I had been immersed in warm oil, surrounded by love, and very aware of the immediate Presence of the Lord. It was the most beautiful Spiritual experience I’d ever had up to that time, and still seems the greatest of gifts to receive.
The next day I was taking a shower, and praying very quietly while standing under the nice, warm water, when I heard myself praying in another language and felt a feeling of being “uplifted” and very happy. So, I got the “tongues”, as it is referred to, anyway. Can’t hedge prayers when you ask the Lord for gifts, He gives as He chooses. I have never used the language in public, although I did a couple of times when praying for someone dying. Instead, I think of it as a “prayer language”, and use it sometimes alone when I pray, and know that when I do, especially when I’m not sure what to pray for or about, that the Spirit is praying for me, and therefore the prayer is in perfect accord with God’s Will. I don’t need to know what I’m saying, although I sometimes have a sense of what it means, because I trust that the Spirit of God knows perfectly well what I need to pray for or who to pray for.
Hope that answers your question regarding “how”.
I read Scriptures in the NT which referred to the “Baptism of the Spirit”, especially at Pentecost, and when the Apostles laid hands on converts and prayed for them to “receive the Spirit”. I didn’t have an Apostle handy (!! I was a bit literal-minded at the time, and young!) so I simply found a quiet place at home, kneeled and prayed for the “Baptism of the Spirit” so I could be closer to the Lord. I had read that some people in the NT were given many spiritual gifts, including the “gift of tongues”, so I “hedged” my prayer, asking Jesus to fill me with His Holy Spirit, but “please don’t give me this strange gift, as I don’t want to sound weird”. LOL
The Baptism of the Spirit, as it is referred to, felt to me as though I had been immersed in warm oil, surrounded by love, and very aware of the immediate Presence of the Lord. It was the most beautiful Spiritual experience I’d ever had up to that time, and still seems the greatest of gifts to receive.
The next day I was taking a shower, and praying very quietly while standing under the nice, warm water, when I heard myself praying in another language and felt a feeling of being “uplifted” and very happy. So, I got the “tongues”, as it is referred to, anyway. Can’t hedge prayers when you ask the Lord for gifts, He gives as He chooses. I have never used the language in public, although I did a couple of times when praying for someone dying. Instead, I think of it as a “prayer language”, and use it sometimes alone when I pray, and know that when I do, especially when I’m not sure what to pray for or about, that the Spirit is praying for me, and therefore the prayer is in perfect accord with God’s Will. I don’t need to know what I’m saying, although I sometimes have a sense of what it means, because I trust that the Spirit of God knows perfectly well what I need to pray for or who to pray for.
Hope that answers your question regarding “how”.
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Evania
Guest
That is very beautiful, but I’m not going to lie, that would freak me out if I got that gift.
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judynurse
Guest
Believe me, after I got out of that shower, it “freaked” me out too! I was scared that I’d do it in public or in Mass, without realizing it. I learned later that the Holy Spirit doesn’t “interrupt” Himself —i.e., the Spirit does not interrupt the Mass prayers with other voices! I also learned that I have complete control over whether to use my “prayer language” or to use my English! I use it mostly at night as a private way to communicate with my Lord, especially when my age and problems seem hard. It does make me feel peaceful, and I sleep well afterward. It has never occurred unless I did this deliberately. So, don’t “freak out”! The Lord knows how to teach you.
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powerofk
Guest
The way I understand it, what the Bible calls “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” is what the Church considers to be the Sacrament of Confirmation. Charismatics simply allow themselves to be more in tune with the Spirit and His fruits and gifts. That is not to say that Traditional Catholics and Mainstream Catholics do not experience the gifts of the Holy Spirit, however. For example, Traditional Catholicism exercises the gifts of piety and fear of the Lord. My profession allows me to exercise the gifts of wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. The Holy Spirit gives each of these gifts to all, but the more we use certain gifts, the more that gift is exercised, and the more of that gift we receive. If we do not use a certain gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift can weaken so much that it is difficult to use.
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Evania
Guest
What are some of the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives? I’m sorry if I’m asking dumb questions. I’m new to this and would like to learn. I know about God the Father and Jesus, but it seems like the Holy Spirit is forgotten in prayers.
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judynurse
Guest
That last response from Powerofk is perfectly correct. However, due to illness in youth, and a loss of papers from the Cathedral in a disaster, I had no record of Confirmation at all at the time I prayed for the “Baptism of the Spirit”. Therefore, the Lord gave me this experience to confirm His love for me, and to lead me into deeper spiritual truths. I actually wasn’t Confirmed until I was in my 40’s, because of no paperwork to show I had ever been Confirmed! But you are correct, the Confirmation is supposed to be the “giving” of the Holy Spirit when the Bishop lays his hands on the candidate’s head, just as it occurred with the Apostles. However, the Charismatic experience is a deeper union, which is perhaps a way of bringing adults back to Christ in a deeper way, and teaching them more of Himself.
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powerofk
Guest
The Spirit endows the following:
- the Three Theological Virtues of faith, hope, and sacrificial love (charity/agape);
- the Four Cardinal Virtues of prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice;
- the Seven Gifts of wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, fortitude (again), piety, and fear of the Lord;
- the Twelve Fruits of charity (again), joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, and chastity;
- the charisms of prophecy, teaching, serving, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, gifts of healing, distinguishing good vs. evil spirits, giving, mercy, miracles, leadership, exhortation, etc.
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Evania
Guest
Does God give everyone a charism?
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Dorothy
Guest
So we don’t get confused with the language…Baptism is a Sacrament. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a sacramental that helps a person on their spiritual journey. If the awareness of God’s love is not nourished with prayer and sacraments, it can fade away.
When a person opens him/her self in expectant faith to the Lord, He responds.
This “baptism” should enable the believer to enter more deeply into the Mass, which is the source and summit of our life as Catholics.
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Lady_Love
Guest
I was taught that at confirmation God bestows on us the “gifts of the Holy Spirit” but the problem comes in when, at the time of confirmation, a person is not open or should I say “activated.” The grace is always there from the moment of confirmation but one must learn to open themselves up to the grace. It’s kind of like being given a gift…you have to open it!
But what I have found is that Confirmation is like one of those boxes that has more boxes in it. When you open one box, you receive that grace and when you open the next box, you receive the next grace. Retreats such as Cursillo are a great means to opening more boxes (accessing the gifts of the Holy Spirit given you at confirmation.)
Praised be the Holy Spirit!
But what I have found is that Confirmation is like one of those boxes that has more boxes in it. When you open one box, you receive that grace and when you open the next box, you receive the next grace. Retreats such as Cursillo are a great means to opening more boxes (accessing the gifts of the Holy Spirit given you at confirmation.)
Praised be the Holy Spirit!
Because of that confusion, I don’t like that term. I prefer to call it an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. There is only one baptism, and that is the sacrament and Confirmation is the sacrament of the sealing of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This so-called “baptism” in charismatic circles is more of an “unlocking” of those gifts and is extra-sacramental. I can accept that such experiences can be genuine, but I will always be guided by two principles: that first of all, we will know people by their fruits; and second, we first receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism, and his strength, gifts, etc. at Confirmation. These non-sacramental activities in charismatic circles are not sacraments and are not the initial receiving of the Spirit.
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powerofk
Guest
Yes, I believe so. However, charisms of speaking in tongues and prophecy are very rare today; they apparently were not nearly as rare in the early church, as St. Paul often mentions them in his letters (most notably, in 1 Corinthians). Charisms of mercy, teaching, and the like are much more common today.
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Windmill
Guest
Again, I’d just like to say that the sacramental life is the primary means of sanctification of the Christian. Chasing after things like “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” or “speaking in tongues” to the neglect of the sacramental life is doing the Devil’s work for him. Satan would love it if you prayed for deliverance, cast out demons, spoke in tongues, and felt the Holy Spirit…but you never go to Confession. Such a soul will go before their Lord ill-prepared on their last day.
These experiences are not signs of heavenly election, nor should people who have these experiences judge those who have not had similar experiences as “less spiritual” or not in close relationship with Christ. I say this, because I have met many Pentecostal Protestants (from whom much of Charismatic Catholicism has borrowed terminology and mindset) who sincerely believe that if you haven’t been “baptized in the Holy Spirit” you have not truly been converted. Beware this import from those outside the fullness of the Faith who are trying to piece together Christianity from a Bible-only perspective.
Learn the faith. Live the faith. Share the faith. It’s a faith that has guided souls for 2,000 years successfully to Heaven. Don’t feel you have to re-invent Catholicism. If these spiritual experiences are given to you - great. If not, don’t worry that you are not truly Christian. Seek after Christ, pray daily, learn the doctrines that saints and martyrs lived and died for. That will get you to Heaven.
These experiences are not signs of heavenly election, nor should people who have these experiences judge those who have not had similar experiences as “less spiritual” or not in close relationship with Christ. I say this, because I have met many Pentecostal Protestants (from whom much of Charismatic Catholicism has borrowed terminology and mindset) who sincerely believe that if you haven’t been “baptized in the Holy Spirit” you have not truly been converted. Beware this import from those outside the fullness of the Faith who are trying to piece together Christianity from a Bible-only perspective.
Learn the faith. Live the faith. Share the faith. It’s a faith that has guided souls for 2,000 years successfully to Heaven. Don’t feel you have to re-invent Catholicism. If these spiritual experiences are given to you - great. If not, don’t worry that you are not truly Christian. Seek after Christ, pray daily, learn the doctrines that saints and martyrs lived and died for. That will get you to Heaven.
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