Charismatic Catholic Experiences

[InnocentIII]

sconea:

From the charismatics I keep hearing about “experiences” and enthusiasm. So many sound like new converts. And I honestly haven’t observed a steady growth in holiness in the charismatics I’ve known. Like many protestants they seem at the same level of spiritual growth as when first converted.

Thankyou sconea, it is this that concerns me quite often. I have known many charismatics, but it seems to me speaking with them that it is the experience that they crave, the rush, the high. It becomes an intensely personal buzz that does not seem to lead onto any spiritual goal. This may also explain the emphasis on tongues as an outward sign of “having the spirit”. While there has been much quoting of 1 Corinthians it should be remembered that St Paul was writing to discourage excessive enthusiasm for tongues as against the other gifts of the Spirit.

sconea:

And usually these are other lay people, not priests, praying and laying hands on people. You have no idea what ‘spirits’ you may be getting when you go SEEKING these extraordinary gifts.

This is also a concern, for this laying on of hands comes perilously close to usurping the proper charism of the priesthood. Our little group of charismatics has taken to extending their hands at all sorts of inappropriate moments and of encouraging people to come to them to have hands laid on them, a role which in the Church is reserved to priests and bishops.

sconea:

According to the church teaching:

By these gifts He makes them fit and ready to undertake the various tasks and offices which contribute toward the renewal and building up of the Church, according to the words of the Apostle: “The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit”.(115). Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be

presumptuously expected from their use.

To give an example, our holy priest is in my opinion truely charismatic but not a charismatic. At normal times he seems just an ordinary man but when he enters the pulpit he is transformed and the Holy Spirit speaks directly from him. Among our charismatics however, there is much talk of the Spirit but little in the way of fruits. It has become an aspect of personal piety rather than a gift for the work of the Church.

I have also noted an intense interest in things miraculous among them. Their love of the Blessed Sacrament is undoubtedly real but often in their bearing and actions they seem less concerned with it as a living reality than as a sign of the supernatural.

None of this is to deny the reality or the desirablity of charisms but it is as I have stressed several times to sound a note of caution for it is all too easy to get caught up in the enthusiasm and to live for that alone, or to get drawn to others who share the enthusiasm but may not be part of the Catholic Church (the leader of our charismatics is strongly influenced by the Hillsong Pentecostal Church). Again I would support individual charismatics but I am wary of charismatic groups forming within the Church.

 

[bekalc]

Innocent you mentioned that the Church only wants priests and bishops to lay hands on others, does this mean that we are discouraged for doing that amongst ourselves. For example if someone has a need and just a group of christians laying hand, praying together?

I’m just starting RCIA in October so I’m getting use to all these Catholic things. I"ve come to the place where I believe in the necessity of apostolic succession and a priestly function in the Church… I think accountabilty and authority is so important. I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit; I have seen them work in mirvolous ways. BUT I also have seen where these gifts have been abused as well. Discernment must be used…

However, I think people get excited when cool things happen, and I think thats okay. I also think it is good because how can we learn if we don’t have experience.

However, I also see how people can make worship or specific experiences all they are about. I also know that God likes to speak in different ways, and i see how people can use the gifts of the Holy Spirit as a form of fortune telling. Its a scary thing. I’ve never been to a Catholic Charismatic movement, so I’m not pinning this on any one of you…But I’m saying that this does happen. Part of this comes from a lack of knowledge. For example a lot of people think prophecy is seeing into the future. But its mainly just a Word from God. Scripture is prophecy. Or message about Jesus Christ who died for the World; that is prophecy. When we tell people about this Christ… It can be encouragment. Most prophecy is not the “fancy” stuff people make it out to be. And when there is a message like that while according to Scripture that message must be discerned.

Its funny thought but I am actually growing to appreciate the quiteness and the reverence at the Catholic mass. I find that in a lot of the jumpiness at Pentecostal churches, its more about your fun experience then its really about connecting to the Lord. (Don’t get me wrong I have sensed God there at times. David danced before the Lord, their is a time and a place for everything) But I feel like in the quietness I can really sense Christ at times and sometimes a Scripture verse read, or a song sung will really speak to me. I like that its centered on Scripture and the eucharist, and not the sermon/homily,

 

[Dorothy]

“bekalc”

<< For example a lot of people think prophecy is seeing into the future. But its mainly just a Word from God.>>

Yes, prophecy is forth-telling, not foretelling! It is a word spoken that tells us what we need to hear at that time.

<< It can be encouragment. Most prophecy is not the “fancy” stuff people make it out to be. And when there is a message like that while according to Scripture that message must be discerned.>>

Yes, prophecy can be encouragement, correction, etc.

<<Its funny thought but I am actually growing to appreciate the quiteness and the reverence at the Catholic mass. I find that in a lot of the jumpiness at Pentecostal churches, its more about your fun experience then its really about connecting to the Lord. (Don’t get me wrong I have sensed God there at times. David danced before the Lord, their is a time and a place for everything) But I feel like in the quietness I can really sense Christ at times and sometimes a Scripture verse read, or a song sung will really speak to me. I like that its centered on Scripture and the eucharist, and not the sermon/homily,>>

The Mass is the central act of worship in the Catholic Church, and should be so for all Catholics no matter what spiritual movement they are in to enhance their prayer life. The Eucharist is Sacrament, it is an encounter with the Risen Christ. Nothing compares with that, and our awareness has to be raised. The more we give of ourselves to the Lord, the more He gives Himself to us. He is gift to us.

We regard the prayer with the laying on of hands as a sacramental. It is not in the same category as a Sacrament. A prayer group is the Body of Christ using the gifts to build one another up. And, let us hope that they are getting the proper guidance and using it. In all the instructions I received regarding prayer teams we were never told we should not lay hands on anyone, as long as the person is okay with it. We touch their head, back or shoulder. Also, there are guidelines for prayer team members that should be followed, such as praying beforehand, as a team, for protection and discernment, and whatever gifts the Holy Spirit wants us to have. And, afterwards, we pray a cleansing prayer. (the team).

When we are baptized in the "Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit with water poured that is a Sacrament, that imparts sanctifying grace.

“Baptism” or “renewal” in the Holy Spirit prayer with the laying on of hands is a sacramental, not at all to be confused with the Sacrament of Baptism. We make that clear to the participants at a Life in the Spirit Seminar, and that is as it should be.

I have seen much good fruit come from the CCR, and good guidance should always be the goal.

And, it is good to remember that quiet prayer is a higher form of prayer (as you explained you are drawn to this type of prayer) and we should recollect ourselves for it and be open to it.
1 Kings 19:12…The Lord is in the "tiny, whispering sound.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[bekalc]

Dorothy, that sounds cool. I will probably definetly get involved in the Catholic Charismatic movement. However, I think I may wait a little until after I go through RCIA. I wanted to get really firmly grounded on what it is to be Catholic before I join any lay movement…

.It sounds though in someways like the Pentecostal/Charismatic circles. I found being a Pentecostal, and having non Pentecostal friends. Is that their are different types of Pentecostals. A lot of Evangelicals think that Pentecostals are all out of control, etc… But it just depends on the Pentecostal, and their mindset. The Pentecostal Church I was a member of, was very ordered, and they never had slain in the Spirit/didn’t care for it… The pastor was very sola scriptura like and so he even limited the amount of times a Word could be said in the Service because Scripture said Two or three at the most…

He’s theme was God is ae a God of order, and while I personally wouldn’t condemn every slain in the Spirit incident. I appreciated a curch that recognizned that the Bible insists on ordered worship and the gifts were to be discerned, not abused around. The Church was kind of like a Baptist Church with Pentecostal gifts… Then their are other Churches in the same denomination even in the same town where people would be jumping up and down in the aisles…However, the “ordered” Pentecostal Church is actually one of the fastest growing Churches in that denomination…So, there are really different types of Pentecostals, just like their are all kinds of types of people.

So it sounds like its a very similar thing with the Catholic Charismatic. Where perhaps the issues people are mentioning do exist, but then there are other cases where it doesn’t exist. It just depends on the group involved and where the individual basically has to be grounded in sound theology.

 

[Dorothy]

“belkac”

<<So it sounds like its a very similar thing with the Catholic Charismatic. Where perhaps the issues people are mentioning do exist, but then there are other cases where it doesn’t exist. It just depends on the group involved and where the individual basically has to be grounded in sound theology.>>

I agree what you are saying. And, I believe you are wise in wanting to wait a bit before getting involved in the CCR. Discernment is needed as groups differ in strengths and weaknesses from parish to parish.

May Our Lord Jesus Christ bless you and guide you in your RCIA journey!

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[InnocentIII]

bekalc:

Innocent you mentioned that the Church only wants priests and bishops to lay hands on others, does this mean that we are discouraged for doing that amongst ourselves. For example if someone has a need and just a group of christians laying hand, praying together?

I’m just starting RCIA in October so I’m getting use to all these Catholic things. I"ve come to the place where I believe in the necessity of apostolic succession and a priestly function in the Church… I think accountabilty and authority is so important. I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit; I have seen them work in mirvolous ways. BUT I also have seen where these gifts have been abused as well. Discernment must be used…

However, I think people get excited when cool things happen, and I think thats okay. I also think it is good because how can we learn if we don’t have experience.

However, I also see how people can make worship or specific experiences all they are about. I also know that God likes to speak in different ways, and i see how people can use the gifts of the Holy Spirit as a form of fortune telling. Its a scary thing. I’ve never been to a Catholic Charismatic movement, so I’m not pinning this on any one of you…But I’m saying that this does happen. Part of this comes from a lack of knowledge. For example a lot of people think prophecy is seeing into the future. But its mainly just a Word from God. Scripture is prophecy. Or message about Jesus Christ who died for the World; that is prophecy. When we tell people about this Christ… It can be encouragment. Most prophecy is not the “fancy” stuff people make it out to be. And when there is a message like that while according to Scripture that message must be discerned.

Its funny thought but I am actually growing to appreciate the quiteness and the reverence at the Catholic mass. I find that in a lot of the jumpiness at Pentecostal churches, its more about your fun experience then its really about connecting to the Lord. (Don’t get me wrong I have sensed God there at times. David danced before the Lord, their is a time and a place for everything) But I feel like in the quietness I can really sense Christ at times and sometimes a Scripture verse read, or a song sung will really speak to me. I like that its centered on Scripture and the eucharist, and not the sermon/homily,

Dear bekalc

You have expressed very succinctly and charitably what I both appreciate in charismatics and fear in the charismatic movement. The Church does not forbid us praying together nor using physical contact when doing so. My concern is that among charismatic groups there is often a sense (sometimes implicit at others explicit) of the laying on of hands. That is it is not about sharing equally but about adopting the role of the priest who alone has the power to bless this way. At one CCR meeting i attended the leader specifically asked those present to come forward if they wished and have hands laid on them by a member of the group. This clearly usurps the priests authority as the “alter Christi”.

I like your comments also about prophecy. St Paul is quite clear. Gifts should be used for the whole congregation. He was reacting to the church in Corinth where people were claiming gifts directly from the Holy Spirit as a sign of personal holiness. He undoubtedly did not want to deny the gifts of the Spirit but he did want to caution against excesses and against spiritual pride.

We know very little about the early church communities apart from what is mentioned in Luke, the letters and some historical documents. It must be remembered that these communities lived in immediate expectation of Christ’s return. To be a Christian in those days was to believe that the end of the world and the reign of God was close at hand. Heady stuff. Pace what has been said here however, there is little evidence of the Church being composed of charismatic communities for the first three centuries. Once it became obvious that the Second Coming was some way off and that the Church’s mission was to convert the world a more sober view of the faith took over ( it is interesting that charismatic movements in the protestant church have been great believers in the “end times” thesis). It should also be remembered that pentecostalism was often closely linked to gnosticism in the early church.

All that being said I do not condemn my brothers and sisters who find new faith through the Holy Spirit I only urge caution in the embracing what can be as imprisoning as it can be liberating.

 

[bekalc]

Innocent I see what you mean. I see what you mean about how sometimes groups can take over the role of priest, and one has to be careful not to do that.

I especially understand what you are saying about the end times scenario thing. It was a major thing that led me right out of the Pentecostal denomination I was raised in… I always had a major issue with the whole Pre trib rapture,and I will say that a lot of the seminary students in the denomination take issue with this teaching to, because they question its basis in Scripture. But after reading the early Church fathers and what they have to say about the issue; I became convinced that it was a false prophesy. It worried me that so much emphasis was placed on this in my denomination, because it made people think they will not have to endure persecution. What bothered me the most was that my denomination in their belief statements actually assumed the early church interperted certain passages like them, when we have the earliest Christian writings saying quite differently…

The Church needs to be prepared, perhaps at any time we could be the last generation…However, lots of people have thought that, and were wrong. So we need to be prepared for the other possibility.

 

[b_justb]

Sometimes caution sounds like fear to me.

 

[jabresnahan]

As a charismatic protestant it was a constant chase, a constant attempt to recapture the rosy feelings. That was because God inhabited the praises of His people. Enter His gates with thanksgiving and into His courts with praise. The implication was if the feelings wan’t there, (especialy peace) you were not in union with the HS.

After I realized feelings had nothing to do with reality, I looked for “hard core believers” and landed in a Baptist chirch. There was still the thanksgiving/praise formula but a higher emmphesis on the scripture.

It still seems like I have to fill in the blanks at mass to see the liturgey is exactly that praise/thanksgiving in yet a different form but still there

Liike another post I see an exodus to evangelical churches some carismatic. But what I see in the churches with the bigest draw, is a making of scripute practical and applicable. Most priests seem to assume that the hearer is at a place where I doubt most are. I was at a church that sung its heart out for an hour, and sat still for an hour long surmon. Would you believe nnobody wanted to leave? I hate to say this, but if you want to go beyond a milk diet in the catholic church you have to search and search.

One hungry Man

 

[Dorothy]

“jabresnahan”

<< I hate to say this, but if you want to go beyond a milk diet in the catholic church you have to search and search.>>

Perhaps you would be interested in one of the Third Orders? Such as Carmelite, Franciscan, Dominican, or the Oblates of St. Benedict? You can do a search about them online.

Do you pray the Liturgy of the Hours?

Peace,

Dorothy, Third Order Carmelite

 

[jabresnahan]

Dorthy,

Thanks for that idea. I know some very incredable saints that came out of the Carmalites. (Thats not to minimise the other orders of course.)

Tonight I spent an hour before the eucharist. I had to tear myself away. The light shed into my soul… how it penetrates me to my very core.

The chase for intelectual knolege is tempting, but that seems useless unless it’s applied. That leaves me wondering about all the sins of omission I’m commiting, which is resulting in a kind of paralisis

Sometimes I think I should of been a contemplitive, but how do you pull that with 5 year old?

So far I havn’t fit in anyware since comming back to the Church. How I should undertand “My sheep hear My voice” now along with “If you save your life you will loose it, but if you hate your life you will gain it” along with “walk by the spirit” and on and on.

My intelect wants so much to make my Abba happy. (I don’t think I do could anything to make Him love me any more or less) Yet sheep are downright stupid and will starve to death unless they are moved to a fresh pasture frequently. If I’m a moronical sheep how can I be reponsible for sin?

I’m soo confused

As a protestant I had God all figured out at least a couple of times. I could state the “gospel” in a couple of sentances.

Now I don’t know how to articulate my confustion. I know the creed, and I see examples of salt and light with courages vurtue all through out history.

How exactly am I to live that out, in the here and now, with my built in responsibilities?

One thirsty man

 

[Dorothy]

“jabresnahan”

At the end of your message you stated that you are a thirsty man.
I see that as Jesus’ thirst for you! When Jesus asked the Samaritan woman for a drink He was thirsting for her soul.

<>

What a blessing you describe!..stay with Him in faith even when some of the time in prayer is dry. He increases our faith that way.

<<The chase for intelectual knolege is tempting, but that seems useless unless it’s applied.>>

Yes, we do need to discern what knowledge the Lord wants us to have, and then apply it.

<<Sometimes I think I should of been a contemplitive, but how do you pull that with 5 year old?>>

All things are possible with God. He can show you what times to be with Him, teach you new ways to pray, put CD’s in your car while driving to work, associate with like-minded people, etc.
Obviously the Lord is drawing you to a deeper prayer life. Step by step He can guide your steps. Ask Blessed Mother also, she is our Mother in the order of grace, and cares about each of us as she cared about her Son.

<<So far I havn’t fit in anyware since comming back to the Church. >>

He loves you with an infinite love right where you are, and your continued prayer will be answered…

<<My intelect wants so much to make my Abba happy. (I don’t think I do could anything to make Him love me any more or less) Yet sheep are downright stupid and will starve to death unless they are moved to a fresh pasture frequently.>>

I pray that He lifts you up and puts you in the pasture of His choice.

<<I’m soo confused >>

May you receive the Light of His Peace, that surpasses all understanding.

In Jesus and Mary,

Dorothy

P.S. I have much more to share if you wish to continue.

 

[Dorothy]

“jabresnahan”

I forgot to mention that your role as a husband, and father of a five year old is not detrimental to pursuing a life of prayer. You can grow and learn in that God-given role.

I entered a Lay Carmelite community after having eight children and experiencing much turmoil, confusion, and unhappiness because I did not allow myself to pursue prayer seriously, while filled with all those anxieties and frustrations.

My two oldest children were entering their teen years at the time, and I found it unbearable. Although I clung to the Rosary in my frustration, there was as yet no “balance” to my spiritual life.

In retrospect, I can see that Our Blessed Mother led me into her “order”, just as a mouse is led into a mousetrap! :>) My first visit at a Lay Carmelite meeting was like a ton of bricks falling on my head…and I saw stars! Stars of conviction and grace.

In Jesus and Mary,

Dorothy

Then my healing began!

 

[jlroussin]

When I was 15, I had a very powerful experience of having a very close and intimate relationship with Jesus. This was never manifested in any of the gifts of the Spirit like tongues, etc. I would be in silent prayer, praying rosary, or bible reading, and yet I had a very close and intimate personal relationship with Christ.

This is only my experience, but pretty much all the people I’ve gotten to know in the movement in my area have been arrogant, self-righteous, and performance oriented.

 

[jlroussin]

http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Carole

This is a beautiful analogy. I have been conflicted for a while about whether I “should” be in the Charismatic movement to grow in my walk with the Lord. I’m a very quiet and reserved person, and actually have high functioning autism, so this rowdy, noisy form of worship does not necessarily appeal to me. But, in listening to tapes by Fr. John Hampsch, he specifically says that non charismatics are like a rosebud, and charismatics are like a rose bloom. To me, this seems somewhat elitist, and implies that the charismatics are more spiritually advanced than non charismatics. What are others’ impression of this statement by Fr. Hampsch?

 

[jlroussin]

When I was 15, I had a very powerful experience of having a very close and intimate relationship with Jesus. This was never manifested in any of the gifts of the Spirit like tongues, etc. I would be in silent prayer, praying rosary, or bible reading, and yet I had a very close and intimate personal relationship with Christ.

This is only my experience, but pretty much all the people I’ve gotten to know in the movement in my area have been arrogant, self-righteous, and performance oriented.

Adding to my post (#153), I feel I should further explain and qualify this. I’m not condemning the movement, I’m ONLY stating what MY personal experience has been, and realize it is very limited. I’ve had the experience of having several interactions with several charismatics, and even became involved in the movement for a brief time myself. I’ve only ever gotten to know, beyond the surface, about 3 or 4 other charismatics. Overall, their behavior towards me was condescending and self-righteous. However, I have autism, and autistic people experience a great deal of condescension from other people in general, so perhaps they just didn’t know or understand about my disability. Autistic people often appear to be very unemotional and in their own world, and perhaps they saw this in me, and assumed it was because my faith was lacking, or I was not Spirit filled.

 

[Dorothy]

This is a beautiful analogy. I have been conflicted for a while about whether I “should” be in the Charismatic movement to grow in my walk with the Lord. I’m a very quiet and reserved person, and actually have high functioning autism, so this rowdy, noisy form of worship does not necessarily appeal to me. But, in listening to tapes by Fr. John Hampsch, he specifically says that non charismatics are like a rosebud, and charismatics are like a rose bloom. To me, this seems somewhat elitist, and implies that the charismatics are more spiritually advanced than non charismatics. What are others’ impression of this statement by Fr. Hampsch?

In its best form, a charismatic prayer meeting should not be rowdy and noisy. In fact, the deeper the participants get into their personal prayer, the quieter it becomes, and that is as it should be.

I had been in the charismatic renewal for many years, and at the same time was also in the Lay Carmelites.
I learned and grew spiritually from both. However, five years ago at an annual conference, I knew it would be the last time at a conference for me, (which always had excellent speakers), as I was constantly being led to the adoration room there, where the Blessed Sacrament was exposed. I didn’t hear a voice, but knew the Lord was saying to me “enough”, and I only experienced a deep peace while before the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament for the rest of that weekend conference. A few months after that I (tearfully) spoke to the leader of the prayer group and explained my experience. He said I should go and be where the Holy Spirit wanted me to be.

I have become more and more involved with contemplative prayer and now find my spiritual nourishment in the Lay Carmelite group I am in. My prayer life has been nudged greatly by this, and the Sacraments mean so much more to me.

And, this is not to put down charismatic renewal, as many people were “jump-started” in their faith in a new way through the renewal. I have learned much in the renewal, and now my journey continues in a deeper way on Mount Carmel.

If that is exactly what Father Hampsch said I do not understand it.

Peace in Jesus and Mary,

Dorothy