Charismatic Catholic

[SyroMalankara]

I personally know someone (I’ll call her Alice for simplicity’s sake) who went over to a stranger at a charismatic prayer meeting and prayed with her in tongues. To everyone else it sounded like babble, but the stranger, a woman who had recently escaped a Communist country, heard Alice praying in her native tongue for things she had never told anyone about. It happens.

Of course in the Spirit it can happen. I’m concerned about the number of people that claim it happens, and the leaders who push this as if it were somehow supposed to a widespread phenomenon to be promoted, when in fact it should be very private and probably rare. Of course, it’s also possible that the hearer wanted it to be real and made it so in her mind.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Are you referring to what is called a Miracle of Hearing? I have heard on CAF that the Miracle of Hearing has happened somewhere…

Are you talking about major public events such as conferences or perhaps having a famous guest speaker? The normal Charismatic gathering is not a major anything.

The normal Charismatic gathering usually begins with prayers of praise for God. Each person says their personal prayer in Tongues or the vernacular. In my old Charismatic prayer group, there was a participant who never use Tongues during this beginning part of our meeting. When I was standing next to her, I would shift to the vernacular and then back to Tongues and so on. There was no need for a person standing opposite us to understand what was being prayed to God. There is no need for that person to be an eavesdropper. There is no reason for the Miracle of Hearing.

There is no reason for it to be aloud either, correct? Silent prayer is just as effective, no?

 

[SyroMalankara]

All the last four Popes support the catholic charismatic renewal.

They have an international charismatic mass at the Vatican each year.

The Catechism testifies that the charisms are real and for building up the church.

At one of those international charismatic masses, the Pope was walking into the Church and all the Charismatics starting singing in tongues,
The Popes response was to speak aloud, “This (the catholic charismatic renewal) is the Church.”

All of this has been mentioned before. Charismatics tend to interpret these and many innocuous events as pro-charismatic.

Padre Pio and all the saints were charismatic.

The Apostles were charismatic.

In the sense, as catholic charismatic given very special charisms to build up God’s church on earth

Every baptized person is also charismatic. I’m not referring to this, I’m referring to the movements that now uses this title in their public events.

St Paul wrote in the new Testament, “Seek yee the higher spiritual gifts. And do not denounce the one who prophecies. I wish you all spoke in tongues. Pray for the gift of interpreting tongues. Pray for the gift of prophecy. If someone is sick among you, lay your hands upon them calling upon the Name of the Lord and they will get better.”
Jesus said, “These are the signs that will accompany believers; they will speak in other tongues, they will heal the sick, they will prophecy, they will cast out demons,
Greater works than I will they do, because I go to My Father.
You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you.”

Saint Pope John Paul the second said," The world has lost its sense of the supernatural and the miraculous."

The Bible says, “Jesus could not do any great work in His own hometown except heal a few sick people, and He marvelled at their lack of faith.”

People are skeptical of God’s miraculous power often block His miracles by lack of faith as Jesus showed at Nazareth where they said, “He’s only the carpenters son!”

While Peter walked on the sea when used faith and spoke and testified, “You are the Son of God!”

These promises of God, the spiritual gifts St Paul told Christians to seek, were alive in the Apostles, disciples and early Christians, in the saints, and in the Catholic charismatic renewal which has the full support of the last four Popes.

As Jesus said, “A prophet is without honour among his own people.”
As Pope John Paul Ii has said, “The world has lost its sense of the miraculous.”

St Paul wrote, “Why is it of hard belief to you that God can raise the dead?”
That God can work His miraculous gifts in His people throughout history.

What is this, selective quotation?

 

[grannymh]

There is no reason for it to be aloud either, correct? Silent prayer is just as effective, no?

I pray silently, no sound, in Tongues. That personal decision does not attack praying in tongues out loud. I believe that there is still free speech in America.

 

[MaryHelp777]

Why does this not occur at every charismatic event? You speak in English, I understand it in Spanish? You pray in Cantonese, I understand in French. Makes sense according to the verse, but that’s not what is happening today is it?

Yes it does happen in charismatic prayer groups when it suits God’s purpose.

Not every charismatic prayer group will need or have tongues from everyone, it may be that just the evangelist who is praying over people at the healing service after mass prays in tongues over each person, it depends on each situation,

Why tongues? St Paul says, “We do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit gives us utterance.”
Would you like to pray with the words of the Holy Spirit if God offered you tongues as He offered to the Apostles, disciples, early church, saints and now again in the Catholic charismatic renewal?

I have heard of someone praying in tongues, and someone saying, “You were speaking in my native language, Spanish, you told me my sins and told me to go back to church.”
Or out in Africa, the Irish missionary priests heard the Africans speaking in tongues and heard the Africans speaking the Irish language in tongues.
Often the tongues might be languages of the angels, people do not understand but the words glorify God.

Sometimes the tongues are earthly languages, and someone who speaks that language can interpret.

Others have the gift of interpreting tongues and can interpret any tongue if it is God’s will to interpret.

I heard the story of a guy praying in an unknown tongue to a woman who told him he was speaking perfectly in aramaic, along with speaking in the correct accent, and that he was praising God. The guy didn’t even know aramaic.
St Paul answers that in the Bible:

"Are all prophets? Are all healers? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret tongues? Each has been given his own gift.
Yet the greatest of all these is love. If I speak with the tongues of angels but have not love, I am but a useless sound. If I prophecy but have not love, I am but a sound.

Some people have the more little gifts which are more important.
As Jesus says," He who is loyal in little is loyal in much."

The saints have many examples of tongues.

Saint Anthony of Padua was once asked to speak in front of the Pope. Everyone heard the sermon in their own language.
God does as He sees fit when God sees it suiting His purpose.

Jesus promised in the Bible, “In the latter days I will pour out My Spirit in a way that was previously reserved for the prophets,”

Excellent catholic books on tongues,

Tongues by Fr Robert De Grandis
Tongues by Linda Schubert

 

[MaryHelp777]

All of this has been mentioned before. Charismatics tend to interpret these and many innocuous events as pro-charismatic.

Every baptized person is also charismatic. I’m not referring to this, I’m referring to the movements that now uses this title in their public events.
What is this, selective quotation?

So am I. I am referring to the Roman Catholic Charismatic renewal.
Every catholic is supposed to be charismatic but it is in the Catholic charismatic renewal that you see the special charisms of tongues, healing, prophecy, words of knowledge etc that Jesus describes in the Bible and promises for His followers.

You forget and cannot refute Papal Approval:

The very first Pope who began the annual Catholic Charismatic Renewal international mass in the Vatican each year, when he heard all the Charismatics praying in tongues at the Vatican Church before Mass, said aloud, “This (the catholic charismatic renewal) is the Church.” (in full support of the catholic charismatic renewal and it’s charisms).

Pope John Paul Ii said to the Catholic charismatic renewal special gifts, “Use your charisms.” (speaking of the extraordinary charisms of the Holy Spirit).
Pope John Paul Ii permitted the catholic Charismatics to pray over him publicly in tongues and it was recorded on video camera (at an international catholic charismatic renewal mass in Rome).

Pope Benedict wrote that it is his wish that the catholic charismatic renewal become a normal part of faith development in every parish throughout the world.

Pope Francis was head of the charismatic renewal as bishop in Argentina.

All the last four Popes support the catholic charismatic renewal.

They have an international charismatic mass at the Vatican each year.

The Catechism testifies that the extraordinary charisms of the charismatic renewal are real, such as tongues etc and for building up the church. And are to be used in obedience to the church, and not quenched.

What you are worried about my friend, is falsities in the church, that unfortunately happens in some parts of every church ministry, there are Catholics that we all have to be weary of who preach heresy, who deny Jesus miracles, who don’t believe in confession or the True Presence, who are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Jesus has always warned about that. The church, being made up of human beings will always have those who try to lead us astray, whether it be a bad religious person, or not so good charismatic renewal person.

 

[MaryHelp777]

History of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and Papal Approval:

youtube.com/watch?v=J-QDOcDGDWA&list=PLVnh-RJrG2kV-eo-6ByPYmjFCy0Yht3Dr&index=6

 

[Reuben_J]

So am I. I am referring to the Roman Catholic Charismatic renewal.
Every catholic is supposed to be charismatic but it is in the Catholic charismatic renewal that you see the special charisms of tongues, healing, prophecy, words of knowledge etc that Jesus describes in the Bible and promises for His followers.

You forget and cannot refute Papal Approval:

The very first Pope who began the annual Catholic Charismatic Renewal international mass in the Vatican each year, when he heard all the Charismatics praying in tongues at the Vatican Church before Mass, said aloud, “This (the catholic charismatic renewal) is the Church.” (in full support of the catholic charismatic renewal and it’s charisms).

Pope John Paul Ii said to the Catholic charismatic renewal special gifts, “Use your charisms.” (speaking of the extraordinary charisms of the Holy Spirit).
Pope John Paul Ii permitted the catholic Charismatics to pray over him publicly in tongues and it was recorded on video camera (at an international catholic charismatic renewal mass in Rome).

Pope Benedict wrote that it is his wish that the catholic charismatic renewal become a normal part of faith development in every parish throughout the world.

Pope Francis was head of the charismatic renewal as bishop in Argentina.

All the last four Popes support the catholic charismatic renewal.

They have an international charismatic mass at the Vatican each year.

The Catechism testifies that the extraordinary charisms of the charismatic renewal are real, such as tongues etc and for building up the church. And are to be used in obedience to the church, and not quenched.

What you are worried about my friend, is falsities in the church, that unfortunately happens in some parts of every church ministry, there are Catholics that we all have to be weary of who preach heresy, who deny Jesus miracles, who don’t believe in confession or the True Presence, who are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Jesus has always warned about that. The church, being made up of human beings will always have those who try to lead us astray, whether it be a bad religious person, or not so good charismatic renewal person.

Great post, Mary.

Last year at the Charismatic gathering in the Vatican, don’t know whether you were there or not, Pope Francis asked to be prayed over by the multitude of crowd as he knelt down and the people extended their hands upon him to pray over him.

Yes, Catholic Charismatic Renewal is part of the Catholic Church and is a major event of the Holy Spirit last century. Every Century the Spirit would do something and the twentieth century can be said a great move of the Spirit.

Yes, the CCR is supported by all the previous Popes, from John XXIII until Pope Francis. It is a part of the one body of Christ. The Catholic Church is too big for some Catholics and they may not know what’s going on in the Church except for their little devotion and activities. There’s nothing wrong with that though but to blindly be critical of something you do not know is not good.

Btw, next year, 2017, is the fiftieth anniversary of the CCR and Pope Francis has taken the lead in the organizing committee instead of delegating it to one of the curia Bishops. This is a major shift in the papal action but it shows his personal interest and approval/blessing.

In conjunction with it, he has issued a doctrinal Magisterium of faith to all the bishops, about the hierarchical and charismatic church which should he accepted equally. Probably not many people in CAF know about this now.

 

[Reuben_J]

The document is “IUVENESCIT ECCLESIA’’ (THE CHURCH REJUVENATES) to the bishops of the Catholic Church on the relationship between hierarchical and charismatic gifts for the life and the mission of the Church.

Among other things, it mentions that both are by the same Holy Spirit - the Institutional Church with hierarchical gifts and the Church of Charity, the Charismatic gifts.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

The problem isn’t prophecy, it’s lack of prophecy. There are a megaton of tongue speakers and near no authentic propheciers. Odd, isnt’ it?

I agree with this. I also don’t understand the “gift of tongues” if no-one can understand the words. The point of the gift is to preach the gospel. Also, isn’t another of the gifts supposed to be interpretation of tongues? Shouldn’t each charismatic service that has speaking in tongues have an interpreter for each different “language”, if there is no-one there that speaks the language?

It just seems to me like a gift should have a purpose.

The “praying in tongues” seems more like power of suggestion and a way to get an evangelical buzz from prayer to me, a relative outsider. But again, I’m not judging others for their preferences.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I heard the story of a guy praying in an unknown tongue to a woman who told him he was speaking perfectly in aramaic, along with speaking in the correct accent, and that he was praising God. The guy didn’t even know aramaic.

I find these stories, and their continuous retelling (without verification) quite concerning. There are very few people in the entire world that speak Aramaic. (There are a few more that speak Syriac - liturgically used in the Malankara Syriac, Malabar, Syriac, Chaldean, Maronite, and Assyrian Churches - a derivate of Aramaic that is branched into 3 to 4 different groups that are similar, but vary in pronunciation and differ in a few words and phrases, they are written slightly differently as well). The odds that a fluent Aramaic speaker was at a Charismatic Catholic prayer and overheard a man praying aloud in “perfect Aramaic” with the “correct accent”, etc… well, let’s just say, the tale sounds very tall.

Saint Anthony of Padua was once asked to speak in front of the Pope. Everyone heard the sermon in their own language.
God does as He sees fit when God sees it suiting His purpose.

The difference is that St. Anthony was in this event, understood by all. That is a miracle. Being understood by none, not even the speaker is much less to be in awe about.

 

[Reepicheep]

I’m generally weary and skeptical of any unique ‘gifts’ that are self-proclaimed en masse. If one has some such divine charisma, I’d expect they would spend their days in solitude and prayer, attached to a hermitage for support. In addition, I’d further expect that individual to be in total fidelity to the Church, especially the Divine Liturgy (Mass) and the Mysteries (Sacraments). However, there are very few of these kinds of “charismatic” leaders and many, many more of the kind that publicly ‘show off’ their ‘gifts’, gather many followers in an organized and deliberate manner, begin a tax-free enterprise that they or their devotees lead and other questionable practices.

A couple of the legitimate ones are very difficult to reach and don’t publicly seek out attention. Here’s a few that we know about by media:

Father-monk Maxime the Stylite of Katskhi:
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2384040/Maxime-Meet-monk-lives-life-virtual-solitude-131ft-pillar.html

Father-monk Yakub of the Syriac Church:
youtube.com/watch?v=BMs3Zs6uVE0

Father-monk Lazarus El-Antony of the Coptic Church:
youtu.be/9VjU_505i6E?t=25m15s

The Apostles had such gifts, and they most certainly did not choose lives of solitude.

Further, if you have the gift of miraculous healing, why would you deny healing to those who need it? And how can you go about healing people and at the same time spend your life in solitude?

Fidelity to the Church? Yes, most certainly. Any “Catholic Charismatic” who will not obey Mother Church must be suspect at the least.
I would ask: how many Catholic Charismatics do you know of who are, to your knowledge, in rebellion against Mother Church?

Please do not include Protestant Charismatics in your answer to this question. One cannot reasonably expect those who are not Catholics to abide by the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Apostles had such gifts, and they most certainly did not choose lives of solitude.

Sure, but they didn’t personally benefit from their gifts and were under threat of death by martyrdom.

Further, if you have the gift of miraculous healing, why would you deny healing to those who need it? And how can you go about healing people and at the same time spend your life in solitude?

The same way those monks do. People come to him, he spends time with them personally - no glitz, no glamor, no publicity, no cameras.

Fidelity to the Church? Yes, most certainly. Any “Catholic Charismatic” who will not obey Mother Church must be suspect at the least.
I would ask: how many Catholic Charismatics do you know of who are, to your knowledge, in rebellion against Mother Church?

I’ve seen some abysmal practices in the context of Mass/Divine Liturgy and devotions. Others were not to the spirit of solemnity. Others were not my taste but nothing forbidden.

Please do not include Protestant Charismatics in your answer to this question. One cannot reasonably expect those who are not Catholics to abide by the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Why wouldn’t they, if they were actually moved by the authentic Spirit - one could reason that the same Spirit would lead them to act Catholic, join Catholicism, and become loyal to the Saints and the Church.

 

[Reepicheep]

(Snipped)

I’ve noticed that Charismatic Catholic supporters tend to promote non-significances are pro-charismatic. Every laymen, deacon, priest, bishop and Patriarch wishes the charismatic renewal to become a natural part of the parish and faith formation - how this becomes so is the disagreement. Doesn’t that wish imply that the Charismatic movement today is not now “a natural part of the parish and faith formation”? Also, couldn’t that wish be interpreted as wishing they would stop being an exclusivist or separate group as a quasi-parish within the larger parish?

MaryHelp777 said:

(“Pope Benedict expressed that he wished the catholic.charismatic renewal would become a natural part of every parish and of faith formation”)

The Holy Father said, "“every” not “the”. That is, it’s only part of some parishes and he wished it would be part of every parish.

If you first show the Holy Father thought they were being exclusivist in the first place, then you may claim that the Pope’s words can be interpreted as wishing they should stop being exclusivist.

Pope Francis was head of the catholic charismatic renewal when he was bishop in Argentina.
Pope Francis also freed up the TLM in Argentina and was friendly with the SSPX. As head of the Diocese, primate of Argentina, he was also head of the Eastern-Rite Catholics without their own Bishop. That doesn’t mean much per se one way or the other.

Well, if it doesn’t mean much one way or the other, then it doesn’t support your argument more than the other side’s argument.
And ‘friendly with the SSPX’ is a vague term. Friends with some supporters of the SSPX? Conciliatory toward the leaders? He attempted to reconcile them with the Church? None of that means he supported their claims.

So you’d expect all of these secondary gifts being expressed only by those overflowing with Love, right?

One would expect those filled with the Holy Spirit to be loving people. “Loving” does not equal “completely free of sin and imperfection”.
Further, if only those who had reached such pinnacles of perfection were allowed to receive the gifts, then the gifts would be unknown–there would be nobody to receive and exercise them.
Further, aren’t the gifts meant to build up the Church? Doesn’t that include building up the people who receive them?

The problem isn’t prophecy, it’s lack of prophecy. There are a megaton of tongue speakers and near no authentic propheciers. Odd, isnt’ it?

1. What makes you think authentic prophets are so rare?
2. The gift of tongues is more common among charismatics than the gift fo prophecy? Well, so what? The Spirit moves as He will.

 

[grannymh]

I agree with this. I also don’t understand the “gift of tongues” if no-one can understand the words. The point of the gift is to preach the gospel. Also, isn’t another of the gifts supposed to be interpretation of tongues? Shouldn’t each charismatic service that has speaking in tongues have an interpreter for each different “language”, if there is no-one there that speaks the language?

It just seems to me like a gift should have a purpose.

The “praying in tongues” seems more like power of suggestion and a way to get an evangelical buzz from prayer to me, a relative outsider. But again, I’m not judging others for their preferences.

Once you accept the fact that there are two, yup two, extremely different Holy Spirit gifts which employ Tongues, understanding will happen. (1Corinthians, chapters 12 & 14)

Because I am needed off CAF, your challenge is to find these two gifts which are so apparent in your post.

This book will help.
HINT – Take a look at the chapter headings in the beginning, especially chapter 4, page 33 & chapter 6, page 51

brendancase.com/uploads/Key_to_the_Charismatic_Renewal.pdf

 

[Reepicheep]

Why is there a different Mass called charismatic Mass or charismatic healing Mass - such a thing is written nowhere in any rubric, General Instruction, or liturgical document.

It is not a different Mass. A charismatic Mass is simply a Mass at which there are many people who belong to the charismatic movement. Some of those attending may pray in tongues. It’s still the same Mass that it would be were there no charismatics present.

Here is my concern with the practice - if you can guarantee a ‘speaking in tongues’ moment, isn’t it just prearranged and not a spontaneous action of the Holy Spirit?

“The gift is under command of the prophet.” Those with the gift of prayer in tongues can choose to use it or not. And spontaneous does not mean random. I can choose to pray for ten minutes every morning and still be spontaneous in the content of my prayer.

why have you gone to protestant charismatic service? I believe the Catholic worship is much greater than any protestant service, considering the focus, and worshipping in Spirit and Truth.

Red flags all over the place for me with this.

So do I, but I have at least once in the past attended a Protestant charismatic prayer meeting. We have the fullness of the truth, but the Protestants are still Christians; God has not abandoned them.

 

[Reepicheep]

Why is the only “gift” worth mentioning and promotion that which draws attention to one’s self? Many of the non-tongues “gifts” are much more uplifting for the entire Church but we rarely hear a peep about it from the same people who say they’ve got the “tongues”.

I have heard much about other gifts. I have seen other gifts in use.

 

[Reepicheep]

Sounds like it’s not authentic at all then.

This is the line I’ve read and heard from Charismatics, both Catholic and non-Catholic. What exhibits “wanting it” - muttering and babbling while swaying hands in the air? Is not feeling this is genuine “refusing it”? Seems a good way to slight anyone who questions the actions by saying they are not wanting and refusing this.

No. Wanting it means that you actually desire it and ask God for it. Not that you “mutter and babble”.

And no. Not feeling that whatever happened is genuine does not mean you refuse the gift. It means you have doubts as to whether you received the gift.

 

[Reepicheep]

To get to your point on holding hands during The Lords Prayer, I have heard from many different priests that this is not a common practice in The Church (much more common in USA) & actually a break in church tradition.

This is the case. Some people, sometimes many people, want to do this. It is in no way a real Church tradition, and not authorized by Mother Church.

 

[Reepicheep]

Why does this not occur at every charismatic event? You speak in English, I understand it in Spanish? You pray in Cantonese, I understand in French. Makes sense according to the verse, but that’s not what is happening today is it?

Why does not every Catholic, or every Christian, have the gift to pray in tongues?

“Rare” odes not mean “nonexistent”.