Charismatic Catholic

[Jon_Mallory]

Of course, don’t worry, you are entitled to your own opinion, as others theirs. Basically you are saying, you are right, we are wrong. There is no argument there.

What are you objected to, the manifestation of charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit, perhaps as one from one’s of the Catholic rites, they are being recognized by the highest authority of the Church, the Pope and the Vatican.

If you are part of the Catholic Church, you have to be obedient to that, even if you disagree. It is that simple. So you have to examine your position within the Church.

As being mentioned, the CCR is not something new. If you do not know about it, you have to update yourself.

For us as Catholics to argue about this in the Forum, in a thread started by a non-Catholic, would not be looked so nice seen from the outside. My position and perhaps other posters as well is to make clarification as to what the CCR is.

The Catholic Church is so big, there are many spiritualities within it. There is bound to be disagreement but it does not mean that they are not parts of the Church.

We can only note your objection, and hope you are happy that you can voice it here, which it seems you do enjoy doing so.

God bless.

He’s right syromalankara. No less than four Popes have endorsed the movement. It is now one of many spiritualities in the Catholic Church. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Reuben_J]

Btw, next year, 2017, will be 50th anniversary of the CCR. Preparation for this big celebration has started already with the Holy Father himself leading the organizing committee. It will be held in July next year, and Rome will be swarmed by multitude of Catholic faithful for the celebration. In our parish, many of the young people are saving money for this trip.

The Pope himself will be there to open the celebration which will be including a mass. As this is the CCR gathering, rest assured that there will be singing and praying in tongue in celebrating God’s love for His Church and His people. There will be praise and worship of the living God which will be like perfume bringing fragrance to the Lord’s name into the highest heaven.

 

[Reuben_J]

He’s right syromalankara. No less than four Popes have endorsed the movement. It is now one of many spiritualities in the Catholic Church. Different strokes for different folks.

Thanks.

 

[SyroMalankara]

You seem to think that a pro-CCR statement is official acceptance of all actions of ‘charismatics’ - I don’t think that’s the case at all. Just like Pope Benedict supporting the EF Mass and removing the excommunication on SSPX is not an endorsement of all their actions, or the antisemitism of Bp. Williamson.

 

[SyroMalankara]

There will be praise and worship of the living God which will be like perfume bringing fragrance to the Lord’s name into the highest heaven.

You know what we use at the Divine Liturgy as perfume bringing fragrance to the Lord’s name into the highest heaven - Incense. Lots of it.

 

[grannymh]

When one is brave enough to check the beginning years of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, there are loads of documents by Bishops and others detailing the various positions regarding this infant renewal.
As early as 1969, only two years after the Renewal started, the U.S. Bishops investigated the fledgling movement and the Committee on Doctrine wrote that “theologically the movement has legitimate reasons of existence. It has a strong biblical basis. It would be difficult to inhibit the working of the Spirit which manifested itself so abundantly in the early Church.”

nsc-chariscenter.org/about-ccr/

Years later there is this amazing comment.
“Thus, we can say again, with great thanksgiving and enthusiasm, that in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and in the grace of baptism in the Holy Spirit we see God’s outpouring of a new Pentecost.”

nsc-chariscenter.org/about-ccr/

This is the home link for correct information about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
nsc-chariscenter.org/

 

[SyroMalankara]

Fr. William G. Most, PhD - Errors of Charismatics

Fr. Ryan Erlenbush - You’re not speaking in tongues, you’re just mumbling

 

[MaryHelp777]

Fr. William G. Most, PhD - Errors of Charismatics

Fr. Ryan Erlenbush - You’re not speaking in tongues, you’re just mumbling

Anyone can use Google to find a priest that supports their own particular point of view, unfortunately there are priests who disagree with Vatican II, celibacy, confession etc (no.judgement on their souls)

Once again you are ignoring Papal Approval of the last four Popes and current Pope, and the current Catechism.

The Papacy governs the bishops and priests and laity.

Find a quote of a Pope that supports your opinions.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Anyone can use Google to find a priest that supports their own particular point of view, unfortunately there are priests who disagree with Vatican II, celibacy, confession etc (no.judgement on their souls)

Once again you are ignoring Papal Approval of the last four Popes and current Pope, and the current Catechism.

The Papacy governs the bishops and priests and laity.

Find a quote of a Pope that supports your opinions.

The late Fr. Most is a well recognized theological powerhouse. Fr. Ryan is a priest in good standing, and if you read the article, actually supports the CCP.

You find a Pope supporting what I find troubling, general support of CCR or movements are not that.

 

[MaryHelp777]

You seem to think that a pro-CCR statement is official acceptance of all actions of ‘charismatics’ - I don’t think that’s the case at all. Just like Pope Benedict supporting the EF Mass and removing the excommunication on SSPX is not an endorsement of all their actions, or the antisemitism of Bp. Williamson.

Prove from a Papal quote that the Catholic Charismatics are in schism with the Church.

Pope Benedict said he wishes the catholic charismatic renewal to become a part of every parish throughout the world.

Pope Benedict also said:
“At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history.”

Pope Benedict also wrote:
“to those responsible for the ecclesiastical ministry - from parish priests to bishops - not to let the Renewal pass them by but to welcome it fully; and on the other (hand) … to the members of the Renewal to cherish and maintain their link with the whole Church and with the charisms of their pastors.”

Pope John Paul II, for his part, has been more explicit. Speaking to a group of international leaders of the Renewal on December 11, 1979, he said,
“I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church.”

Pope John Paul Ii said at an international catholic charismatic mass at the Vatican in 1975,
“the Renewal has had formal, canonical recognition by the Vatican.”

Pope Francis himself told priests to run Life in the Spirit seminars for laity (those seminars are Catholic Charismatic seminars)
Pope Francis said: “Speaking of dispensers of grace, I ask each and all of you that as part of the current of grace of Charismatic Renewal you organise seminars of Life in the Spirit in your parishes and seminaries, schools, in neighborhoods,"

These are not random quotes, these are the Popes 100% supporting the catholic charismatic renewal.
You seem to believe also, that if a few Charismatics are heretics that it means the whole charismatic renewal is heresy, (there are heretics in all parts of church ministry everywhere, wherever there are human beings you will find error)

You are pushing your own agenda and denying Papal Approval of the catholic charismatic renewal. What part of any of those quotes proves your false opinion that the Papacy does not approve the Charismatic renewal?
What evidence have you that the Popes think the renewal is heretical and schismatic and are secretly against it? None.

You are even denying that the Popes quotes are approval when it is complete canonical Papal Vatican approval.

SyroMalankara, do you need glasses?
You are believing what you want to believe and denying Papal Approval that has been given to the Catholic charismatic renewal 100%.

 

[MaryHelp777]

The late Fr. Most is a well recognized theological powerhouse. Fr. Ryan is a priest in good standing, and if you read the article, actually supports the CCP.

You find a Pope supporting what I find troubling, general support of CCR or movements are not that.

So you are going to follow one priest and ignore Four Popes and the Catholic Catechism?

That’s like Sola Scriptura, a penitent who goes from priest to priest until he finds one priest who supports his beliefs, regardless if his beliefs are against the catechism or teachings of the current Popes

 

[SyroMalankara]

Prove from a Papal quote that the Catholic Charismatics are in schism with the Church.

Who’s claiming this?

Pope Benedict said he wishes the catholic charismatic renewal to become a part of every parish throughout the world.

So do I

Pope John Paul Ii said at an international catholic charismatic mass at the Vatican in 1975,
“the Renewal has had formal, canonical recognition by the Vatican.”

You are pushing your own agenda and denying Papal Approval of the catholic charismatic renewal.

You are reading what you want into my words. Seems to be a regular occurrence.

What evidence have you that the Popes think the renewal is heretical and schismatic and are secretly against it? None.

When did you stop beating your wife?

You are even denying that the Popes quotes are approval when it is complete canonical Papal Vatican approval.

Approval of what?

The Supreme Pontiff, John Paul II, in an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, gave his approval to this letter, drawn up in a plenary session of this Congregation, and ordered its publication.

At Rome, from the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, October 15, 1989, the Feast of Saint Teresa of Jesus.

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION

III. Erroneous Ways of Praying

1. Even in the first centuries of the Church some incorrect forms of prayer crept in. Some New Testament texts (cf. 1 Jn 4:3; 1 Tim 1:3-7 and 4:3-4) already give hints of their existence. Subsequently, two fundamental deviations came to be identified: Pseudognosticism and Messalianism, both of concern to the Fathers of the Church. There is much to be learned from that experience of primitive Christianity and the reaction of the Fathers which can help in tackling the current problem.

In combating the errors of pseudognosticism8 the Fathers affirmed that matter is created by God and as such is not evil. Moreover, they maintained that grace, which always has the Holy Spirit as its source is not a good proper to the soul, but must be sought from God as a gift. Consequently, the illumination or superior knowledge of the Spirit (“gnosis”), does not make Christian faith something superfluous. Finally, for the Fathers, the authentic sign of a superior knowledge, the fruit of prayer, is always Christian love.

1. If the perfection of Christian prayer cannot be evaluated using the sublimity of gnostic knowledge as a basis, neither can it be judged by referring to the experience of the divine, as Messalianism proposed.9 These false fourth century charismatics identified the grace of the Holy Spirit with the psychological experience of his presence in the soul. In opposing them, the Fathers insisted on the fact that the soul’s union with God in prayer is realized in a mysterious way, and in particular through the sacraments of the Church. Moreover, it can even be achieved through experiences of affliction or desolation. Contrary to the view of the Messalians, these are not necessarily a sign that the Spirit has abandoned a soul. Rather, as masters of spirituality have always clearly acknowledged, they may be an authentic participation in the state of abandonment experienced on the cross by Our Lord, who always remains the model and mediator of prayer.10

1. Both of these forms of error continue to be a temptation for man the sinner. They incite him to try and overcome the distance separating creature from Creator, as though there ought not to be such a distance; to consider the way of Christ on earth, by which he wishes to lead us to the Father, as something now surpassed; to bring down to the level of natural psychology what has been regarded as pure grace, considering it instead as “superior knowledge” or as “experience.”

Such erroneous forms, having reappeared in history from time to time on the fringes of the Church’s prayer, seem once more to impress many Christians, appealing to them as a kind of remedy, be it psychological or spiritual, or as a quick way of finding God.11

1. However, these forms of error, wherever they arise, can be diagnosed very simply. The meditation of the Christian in prayer seeks to grasp the depths of the divine in the salvific works of God in Christ, the Incarnate Word, and in the gift of his Spirit. These divine depths are always revealed to him through the human-earthly dimension. Similar methods of meditation, on the other hand, including those which have their starting-point in the words and deeds of Jesus, try as far as possible to put aside everything that is worldly, sense-perceptible or conceptually limited. It is thus an attempt to ascend to or immerse oneself in the sphere of the divine, which, as such, is neither terrestrial, sense-perceptible nor capable of conceptualization.12 This tendency, already present in the religious sentiments of the later Greek period (especially in “Neoplatonism”), is found deep in the religious inspiration of many peoples, no sooner than they become aware of the precarious character of their representations of the divine and of their attempts to draw close to it.

Messalians - newadvent.org/cathen/10212a.htm

 

[SyroMalankara]

So you are going to follow one priest and ignore Four Popes and the Catholic Catechism?

That’s like Sola Scriptura, a penitent who goes from priest to priest until he finds one priest who supports his beliefs, regardless if his beliefs are against the catechism or teachings of the current Popes

You really are not reading my responses are you - instead you are injecting my words into your own narrative.

 

[MaryHelp777]

Who’s claiming this?

So do I



You are reading what you want into my words. Seems to be a regular occurrence.
When did you stop beating your wife?

Approval of what?

The Supreme Pontiff, John Paul II, in an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, gave his approval to this letter, drawn up in a plenary session of this Congregation, and ordered its publication.

At Rome, from the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, October 15, 1989, the Feast of Saint Teresa of Jesus.

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION

Messalians - newadvent.org/cathen/10212a.htm

SyroMalankara, that letter is about New Age.
Yoga, occult, freemasonry, transcendental meditation and hypnotism

It’s not about the catholic charismatic renewal.

… I think you really do need glasses.

And once again you are Googling and searching for anything that can prove.the catholic charismatic renewal does not have 100% Papal Approval.

I gave you quotes of four Popes and the catechism.
You are ignoring the Popes and Catechism and quoting one priest and a letter…

 

[MaryHelp777]

This.is the Letter to the Bishops of the World about both types of charismatic gifts, the normal ones and the extraordinary ones like tongues.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20160516_iuvenescit-ecclesia_en.html

 

[SyroMalankara]

SyroMalankara, that letter is about New Age.
Yoga, occult, freemasonry, transcendental meditation and hypnotism

It’s not about the catholic charismatic renewal.

… I think you really do need glasses.

And once again you are Googling and searching for anything that can prove.the catholic charismatic renewal does not have 100% Papal Approval.

I gave you quotes of four Popes and the catechism.
You are ignoring the Popes and Catechism and quoting one priest and a letter…

Excuse me. You stated that I am against the “catholic charismatic renewal” about a dozen times now. I re-stated to you that I have not questioned the “catholic charismatic renewal” or the Papal Approval BUT CERTAIN PARTICULAR ACTIONS associated with people that call themselves charismatic and catholic, including leadership and founders. Do you comprehend the difference?

 

[SyroMalankara]

This.is the Letter to the Bishops of the World about both types of charismatic gifts, the normal ones and the extraordinary ones like tongues.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20160516_iuvenescit-ecclesia_en.html

From your link:
The proper exercise of the charisms in the ecclesial community

1. From the above observations, it emerges that the Scriptural texts do not present an opposition between the diverse charisms; rather they see a harmonic connection and complimentarity between them. The antithesis between an institutional Church of the Judeo-Christian type and a charismatic Church of the Pauline type, affirmed by certain reductive ecclesial interpretations, in reality lacks a foundation in the texts of the New Testament. Far from situating the charisms on one side and the institutional entity on the other, opposing a Church “of charity” and a Church “of the institution,” Paul gathers in one list the recipients of the charisms of authority and teaching, of charisms that are useful to the ordinary life of the community, and of the more striking charisms.[17] Paul himself describes his ministry as an Apostle as a ministry “of the Spirit” (2 Cor 3:8). He feels invested with authority (exousía), given him by the Lord (cf. 2 Cor 10:8; 13:10), an authority that extends also towards charismatics. Both he and Peter give the charismatics instructions on the way to exercise their charisms. Their attitude is, above all, one of favorable welcoming; they are convinced of the divine origin of the charisms; they do not, however, consider these gifts as authorizing one to withdraw the obedience owed towards the ecclesial hierarchy, or as bestowing the right to an autonomous ministry. Paul shows himself to be aware of the drawbacks that a disordered exercise of the charisms can provoke in the Christian community.[18] The Apostle, therefore, intervenes, with authority, to establish precise rules for the exercise of charisms “in the Church” (1 Cor 14:19-28), that is, in the gatherings of the community (cf. 1 Cor 14:23-26). He limits, for example, the exercise of glossolalia.[19] Similar rules are also given for the gift of prophecy (cf. 1 Cor 14:29-31).[20]

[19] If in the assembly nobody is found capable of interpreting the mysterious words of the one speaking in tongues, Paul instructs the latter to remain silent. If there is an interpreter, Paul allows that two or, at most three, people may speak in tongues (cf. 1 Cor 14:27-28).

Anyone interpreting when you and others are doing their “tongues”?

 

[grannymh]

Fr. William G. Most, PhD - Errors of Charismatics

Fr. Ryan Erlenbush - You’re not speaking in tongues, you’re just mumbling

Thank you for these links.

Because Reverend William G. Most, PhD writes a rather long discussion, would you kindly give me what you consider are the damning points?

Reverend Ryan Erlenbush’s article contains some popular flaws. I have already addressed this comment “such that the individual speaks almost without control.” in post 146. To be efficient, I again ask you to kindly give me what you consider are the damning points?

 

[SyroMalankara]

St. Paul does not mention suggestion, but of course we should. Many charismatics today are reluctant to admit that any checking is needed. They just say: Look it is what St. Paul talked about. But as we saw, Paul warned about the evil spirit. Some years ago I wrote a long series of columns for National Catholic Register, on the movement…

Regrettably, many charismatics ignore these rules from St. Paul. They have more than two, they have even hundreds at a time. They try to say it is one thing to speak, another to pray in tongues. But Paul makes no such distinction and with good reason, as the experience just related makes clear.

St. Paul also knew that the Corinthians were getting vain over tongues. Hence in 1 Cor 14: he told them to be childlike, but childish.

Paul also felt the need to play down tongues… We note he mentions tongues last, and stops numbering after the first three - which are not the extraordinary type of gifts, they are of the ordinary type. (Prophecy in Paul does not mean usually foretelling the future, but giving a moving exhortation to the community). Almost all of chapter 14 of 1 Cor is a comparison of tongues and prophecy, with tongues coming off a poor second each time.

The danger of suggestion is very great. At a meeting of the Catholic Biblical Associaton in New York some years ago I spoke to a woman professor of Scripture, who was also a charismatic. She told me most cases are just suggestion. A Dominican priest who worked much with them told me the same thing…

In a Catholic Team Manual, Finding New Life in the Spirit, p.25 the candidate is instructed to say, after some preparation: “I ask you to baptize me in the Holy Spirit and give me the gift of tongues.”

This is contrary to Vatican II. In On the Church §12 the Council distinguishes ordinary and extraordinary charisms: “The extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly asked for, nor should the fruits of apostolic works be presumptuously expected from them; but the judgment of their genuine character and the ordered exercise of them pertains to those who preside in the Church…”

Finding New Life in the Spirit (Servant,1872) has sold 1,690,000 copies. It is a guidebook given to all participants in Life in the Spirit Seminars, developed by the Word of God Community out of Ann Arbor, Michigan. Candidates are taught how to invite the gift of tongues, to make a buildup for it – St. Teresa, as we said above, would worry that the door is left more than a little ajar. This is open to satan and/or autosuggestion. On p.25 the candidate is told to say: “I ask you to baptize me in the Holy Spirit and give me the gift of tongues.”

Is this gift of tongues the same as that which the Apostles had on the first Pentecost? Then people of many different native languages did understand. The speakers of whom Paul tells us in general would not understand. Did the Apostles also know? Probably yes. Or was there a sort of miracle in the air, so that the Apostle spoke one language, the crowd understood in various languages? We do not know.

As we said, in 1 Cor chapter 14 St. Paul makes many comparisons and contrasts of prophecy and tongues. In the course of it he says: There are many lifeless things that make a sound, such as the flute or the harp. But if there are only indistinct sounds, who will know what is supposed to be played on the flute or harp? If a bugle gives out an unclear sound, no one will get ready for battle. So too, if someone in a tongue gives out a sound that cannot be understood, how will anyone know what it means? He will be talking to the air!

…In general this could be a valid form of spirituality provided that great care is taken. First, one must check each case, as we said above, to see if it comes from a good spirit, an evil spirit, or autosuggestion. Many charismatics object strongly to checking. There is also a great danger of elitism. Some charismatics say other Catholics are “dead.” This could lead to spiritual pride, the most deadly of vices…

There is also a danger of excess emotionalism: normally God does give consolations (satisfactions in religion) to those who make the second conversion (begin to get very serious about pleasing God). …

Some charismatics claim what they have is merely the activation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which does not happen in the usual Catholic. They call this Baptism in the Spirit. This too is a great error. All receive these Gifts along with sanctifying grace, and they have an increase at Confirmation and other times. But normally they do not show clear and overt effects until one is far advanced in the spiritual life - earlier, there may be latent effects. Still further, the effects of these Gifts are not the miraculous phenomena - that would be to confuse the sanctifying and the charismatic categories. Some also tend to be fundamentalistic in understanding Scripture…

 

[SyroMalankara]

Many charismatics today are trying to say all Catholics must be charismatic, that “baptism in the spirit” was routine in the Patristic age. We find this clearly in a booklet, Fanning the Flame, by Kilian Mc Donnell (Liturgical Press,1991). He cites a few patristic texts to try to show these phenomena were routine in the patristic age. But the texts given are few, just three are given: Fairly clear are those of Tertullian, St. Hilary, St. Cyril of Jerusalem. But the booklet admits on p.18 that: “Both Basil of Caesarea… and Gregory Nazianzus… situate the prophetic charisms within the Christian initiation, though they are more reserved in their regard than Paul.” No quotes are given. Then we see a remarkable admission on St. John Chrysostom, quoted on the same page, “Chrysostom complained, however ‘the charisms are long gone.’” St. Augustine, in City of God (21.5), has to argue strongly that miracles are possible, against those in his day who denied the possibility. He says that if they want to say the Apostles converted the world without any miracles - that would be a great miracle. If there were miraculous gifts commonly around, Augustine would have merely pointed to them. But he did not.

Still further, historically. The miraculous gifts were common in Paul’s day, but at least by the middle of the next century became scarce in the mainline Church, but common in heretical groups. The present movement started in 1901 among Protestants. By 1925 there were about 38 denominations in the U.S. alone. Some decades later, in 1966. some Catholics, precisely by contact with the Protestants, asked that the Protestants lay hands on them, to receive tongues - for tongues were supposed to be the sign that one had been baptized in the Spirit.

Did not Pope Paul VI speak favorably of the movement? Yes, for there can be valid instances of it. But the dangers are very real and not too rare.