Charismatic Catholic

[grannymh]

I am also insulted at being told I have placed the HS in a box. I see this as Protestantism masquerading as Catholicism. I don’t know what goes on in their meetings,but if it involves this tongue mumbo jumbo, you can count me out too!

This bit of information will give you comfort.

St. Paul never taught that praying to God in Tongues (as taught by the Catholic Charismatic Renewal) was absolutely necessary for an individual’s Salvation. Therefore, you can sleep easy because you do not have to get involved with the Protestantism and Catholicism “tongue mumbo jumbo” as you call it.

 

[Wannano]

I just try to address the gist of your question. As you can see from the posts here, just say the word ‘Charismatic’, there are hosts of Catholics who start frothing in the mouth saying that we have gone Protestants. So that’s the things we are dealing with. And sure enough these Catholics know nothing of what the CCR do.

So why Charismatic is such a taboo word for them? Obviously they have heard from those who find that it was a threat to them. And for those who do not know any better, they just parroting what they heard.

Today the Pope even has to officially issue a document on the doctrine of faith saying that the Charismatic gifts are the same gifts from the Holy Spirit on equal importance as the hierarchical gifts.

So I hope you can understand why we want to distance ourselves from the Pentecostals and the Protestant Charismatics.

Basically there is control in what we should do in exercising the gifts which are the least that should occupy our mind but instead the important changes in our lives should be the focus. And that is Jesus Himself.

Having control is not the same as stifling the Holy Spirit.

Thus it is important to know the various marks of the Holy Spirit like, He is the Spirit of order not of confusion, He gives peace instead of strive, He brings you more and more to be like Jesus. In other word, the Charismatic Renewal should make us even more Catholics.

True. I think in the Protestant circle, they do not have that control unlike in Catholicism where we already have the Catholic faith (as I told you). Anything that deviates from that would be a no, no, to the Catholics Charismatics.

I would see that as a compliment to the Holy Spirit. Thanks!

Yes, there were miracles and healings and deliverances of the demons. That was why it was very powerful and drew the crowd. When the CCR first started, they drew thousands upon thousands of people who hunger for God. The leaders were given the gift of preaching and proclaiming the Word which often came with signs and wonders.

Ironically, that in itself was the problem. The local clergy suddenly found their sheep could be more effective than them. They couldn’t handle that. But to be fair, most saw it in a positive light. If the parishioners could help the in the parish, then it must be a good thing.

So if those healings and deliverance bring people to deeper faith and love for Christ, who then can say they are wrong?

I can’t speak for the Protestants. As for the Catholics, they already received the Holy Spirit in their Baptism. In the CCR, it is a matter of activating the Holy Spirit that is in them. Actually we have the Sacrament of Confirmation for that but many of us even after being confirmed do not experience our lives being changed which they should be.

In the case of Protestant Charismatics, they do not believe in Baptism the way we do, thus their turning point in their lives which is a beginning for them, is when they receive the Holy Spirit at that point in time. However, I could be wrong in that though.

 

[Wannano]

I just try to address the gist of your question. As you can see from the posts here, just say the word ‘Charismatic’, there are hosts of Catholics who start frothing in the mouth saying that we have gone Protestants. So that’s the things we are dealing with. And sure enough these Catholics know nothing of what the CCR do.

So why Charismatic is such a taboo word for them? Obviously they have heard from those who find that it was a threat to them. And for those who do not know any better, they just parroting what they heard.

Today the Pope even has to officially issue a document on the doctrine of faith saying that the Charismatic gifts are the same gifts from the Holy Spirit on equal importance as the hierarchical gifts.

So I hope you can understand why we want to distance ourselves from the Pentecostals and the Protestant Charismatics.

Basically there is control in what we should do in exercising the gifts which are the least that should occupy our mind but instead the important changes in our lives should be the focus. And that is Jesus Himself.

Having control is not the same as stifling the Holy Spirit.

Thus it is important to know the various marks of the Holy Spirit like, He is the Spirit of order not of confusion, He gives peace instead of strive, He brings you more and more to be like Jesus. In other word, the Charismatic Renewal should make us even more Catholics.

True. I think in the Protestant circle, they do not have that control unlike in Catholicism where we already have the Catholic faith (as I told you). Anything that deviates from that would be a no, no, to the Catholics Charismatics.

I would see that as a compliment to the Holy Spirit. Thanks!

Yes, there were miracles and healings and deliverances of the demons. That was why it was very powerful and drew the crowd. When the CCR first started, they drew thousands upon thousands of people who hunger for God. The leaders were given the gift of preaching and proclaiming the Word which often came with signs and wonders.

Ironically, that in itself was the problem. The local clergy suddenly found their sheep could be more effective than them. They couldn’t handle that. But to be fair, most saw it in a positive light. If the parishioners could help the in the parish, then it must be a good thing.

So if those healings and deliverance bring people to deeper faith and love for Christ, who then can say they are wrong?

I can’t speak for the Protestants. As for the Catholics, they already received the Holy Spirit in their Baptism. In the CCR, it is a matter of activating the Holy Spirit that is in them. Actually we have the Sacrament of Confirmation for that but many of us even after being confirmed do not experience our lives being changed which they should be.

In the case of Protestant Charismatics, they do not believe in Baptism the way we do, thus their turning point in their lives which is a beginning for them, is when they receive the Holy Spirit at that point in time. However, I could be wrong in that though.

I honestly never meant to open a can of worms. I had no idea this was a contentious issue in the Catholic Church. In my community we are now twenty years past the same turmoil. We all need to read 1Cor. 12, 13 &14. I initially started the thread because I had read about a charismatic Mass which from my experience observing Mass seemed like an oxymoron.

It is with interest that some Catholic posters are suggesting that CCR is Protestantism. I am not a “charismatic” per se, but it is obvious to me that the early New Testament church and also Jesus’ ministry contained much of the current so called “charismatic” activity. In that realization I have often thought that early church worship appears to have been more personal and spontaneous than formal and liturgical. To say that is “Protestantism” seems to be suggesting that early church experience was not what is currently seen as “Catholic?”

 

[Rosebud77]

I honestly never meant to open a can of worms. I had no idea this was a contentious issue in the Catholic Church. In my community we are now twenty years past the same turmoil. We all need to read 1Cor. 12, 13 &14. I initially started the thread because I had read about a charismatic Mass which from my experience observing Mass seemed like an oxymoron.

It is with interest that some Catholic posters are suggesting that CCR is Protestantism. I am not a “charismatic” per se, but it is obvious to me that the early New Testament church and also Jesus’ ministry contained much of the current so called “charismatic” activity. In that realization I have often thought that early church worship appears to have been more personal and spontaneous than formal and liturgical. To say that is “Protestantism” seems to be suggesting that early church experience was not what is currently seen as “Catholic?”

It is in the Church of England also. It is… different… emotional… seemingly uncontrolled. From the outside… I involved a little but it was not where I needed to be. Far too much emotion. And that is from someone well known for being over emotional !

 

[SyroMalankara]

It is with interest that some Catholic posters are suggesting that CCR is Protestantism.

CCR is not protestantism. CCR is Catholic. Certain charismatic practices are protestantism.

I am not a “charismatic” per se, but it is obvious to me that the early New Testament church and also Jesus’ ministry contained much of the current so called “charismatic” activity. In that realization I have often thought that early church worship appears to have been more personal and spontaneous than formal and liturgical. To say that is “Protestantism” seems to be suggesting that early church experience was not what is currently seen as “Catholic?”

No. The early church was always Liturgical, Jewish worship is liturgical. Charisms are gifts that the individual receives through the Sacraments, sharpening one’s relationship to the Sacraments in Liturgical prayer. Actually, intentionally praying the prayers of the Mass and canonical hours with one’s whole mind, heart, and soul is a charism.

 

[mattp0625]

I have attended my fair share of Catholic charismatic events, and I will continue to do so. However, for me, it is about balance.

I attended a Catholic event that included the sermon of a Pentecostal minister, and I have watched another Pentecostal minister online (and read a few of his books).

I did not realize, until recently, that the CCR had a link to the Pentecostal church.

While the interactive prayer is great, it begins to feel too “fun focused” when it is the entire focus. The sermon also starts to feel empty knowing it lacks the sacraments and the backing of apostolic succession.

I have also read about the CCR in several Catholic books, but one in particular struck me. It indicated that some start to focus too much on prayer groups and not enough on mass and the sacraments.

Additionally, the book indicated (rightly, I think) some lay groups may start to draw too much focus onto themselves, claiming to be experts on “deliverance” and battling evil spirits. Praying for each other is great, but even some of the great saints had difficulty discerning good and evil, or truth versus deceit, in the spirit world.

I also heard and read that one should be suspicious when folks claim to have direct word of knowledge from God. I have experienced this type of scenario when visiting prayer groups. Some of it really struck me. However, trusting (or focusing too much on) folks who claim to be experts on the spirit world may be ill advised.

So, I try to focus my CCR participation on those events led by priests and that focus on the sacraments.

I am glad that the Catholic Church is training more exorcists for extreme cases and increasing charismatic events. However, I also agree with the notion that we ought to give more appropriate weight to the sacraments versus the emotional experience of some deliverance ministries.

Ultimately, truth should be given greater weight.

 

[Reuben_J]

I honestly never meant to open a can of worms. I had no idea this was a contentious issue in the Catholic Church. In my community we are now twenty years past the same turmoil. We all need to read 1Cor. 12, 13 &14. I initially started the thread because I had read about a charismatic Mass which from my experience observing Mass seemed like an oxymoron.

It’s alright. It is not so much an issue now, the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church has been pretty much incorporated into the Church and the distinction is not as pronounced as in their earlier days. Probably everybody would have a friend, relative or a member of the family who has some encounter with the Renewal in their parish, and those are no different than themselves. It is not like a Catholic Charismatic has a sign on their foreheads or something. Lol.

However, there may be one or two individuals who still harbor some issue with the Charismatic which was carried over from the initial years. There is no open conflict however and those differences eventually died down.

Of course, you have people in CAF who are free to write their displeasure but they wouldn’t do that in real life as they would run out of Charismatic who would be bothered to argue with them, and if they want to pick a fight, they would become isolated and eventually embarrassed by making a fuss about nothing.

The Charismatic mass issue is largely settled. It is true that some of the songs were being sung ‘Charismatically’ in that mass but with the implementation of GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal), the mass is very much standardized, not just from the Charismatic viewpoint but also from any modification which should not be there.

It is with interest that some Catholic posters are suggesting that CCR is Protestantism.

In the US, there are many Catholics who have Protestant background. They know what’s happening there so it is obviously an issue for them if the things that they converting away from to be found in the Catholic Church again.

As been said, the Catholic Charismatic is quite distinctive from the Protestant version in that the former still very much maintain their Catholic features such as the mass and Marian devotion.

I am not a “charismatic” per se, but it is obvious to me that the early New Testament church and also Jesus’ ministry contained much of the current so called “charismatic” activity. In that realization I have often thought that early church worship appears to have been more personal and spontaneous than formal and liturgical.

We know the word charismatic is a misnomer but because of want for better word. Every Christian is a Charismatic in that they are moved by the Holy Spirit and God does not have any favorite. We consider Virgin Mary as the first Christian Charismatic when she encountered the Holy Spirit. Some Christian saints did pray in tongue.

We cannot really define the Holy Spirit.

What you said by Jesus ministry, if seen today, as Charismatic activity is rather true – the healing and when he proclaimed the word, it was accompanied with signs and wonders. The preaching of the word really had power.

But obviously the apostles/early Christians did have a liturgical gathering as well – the breaking of the bread and listening to the teaching of the apostles.

So I suppose, these were two different activities.

To say that is “Protestantism” seems to be suggesting that early church experience was not what is currently seen as “Catholic?”

You got a point there which sometimes is hard for us Catholics to admit.

It is true that the apostles had the Charismatic gifts and more of that were evident when the Church was under persecution. However, once the Church stabilized and safe, the charismatic gifts (miracles, healings, deliverance, et al) became less and less, and eventually they were only confined to the saints.

It seemed that by the time of St. Augustine, people did not expect any Charismatic gift anymore and so very few happened. It was told that when Augustine was a Bishop, a mother went up to him to ask him to pray over her child. And to his surprised the child was healed. It was then he started to use that gift.

So you can imagine for the Catholics if any upstarts start proclaiming they can hear God and heal people, what would be their first reaction? Those people must be mad. So it was difficult to deal with at first and there were many people who could not accept it.

 

[Reuben_J]

I have attended my fair share of Catholic charismatic events, and I will continue to do so. However, for me, it is about balance.

I attended a Catholic event that included the sermon of a Pentecostal minister, and I have watched another Pentecostal minister online (and read a few of his books).

I did not realize, until recently, that the CCR had a link to the Pentecostal church.

While the interactive prayer is great, it begins to feel too “fun focused” when it is the entire focus. The sermon also starts to feel empty knowing it lacks the sacraments and the backing of apostolic succession.

I have also read about the CCR in several Catholic books, but one in particular struck me. It indicated that some start to focus too much on prayer groups and not enough on mass and the sacraments.

Additionally, the book indicated (rightly, I think) some lay groups may start to draw too much focus onto themselves, claiming to be experts on “deliverance” and battling evil spirits. Praying for each other is great, but even some of the great saints had difficulty discerning good and evil, or truth versus deceit, in the spirit world.

I also heard and read that one should be suspicious when folks claim to have direct word of knowledge from God. I have experienced this type of scenario when visiting prayer groups. Some of it really struck me. However, trusting folks who claim to be an experts on the spirit world may be ill advised.

So, I try to focus my CCR participation on those events led by priests and that focus on the sacraments.

I am glad that the Catholic Church is training more exorcists for extreme cases and increasing charismatic events. However, I also agree with the notion that we ought to give more appropriate weight to the sacraments versus the emotional experience of some deliverance ministries.

Ultimately, truth should be given greater weight.

This is a valid post and so true. I always appreciate a post like this that can make the distinction between the spirituality itself and the downside that can happen.

Speaking about the Charismatic gift – yes, the danger is always there when we start to begin to feel important and then the focus is to get result and get it right, rather than it is the Holy Spirit who moves people and who gives the power. This is being well aware of but the temptation of pride and self-glory sometimes is hard to recognize even when we are very enthusiastically working for the Lord, the thin gray line separating whether we actually do it for ourselves and to be successful in our agenda or we are just God’s instrument to do His work.

In the Charismatic Renewal circle, having been aware of this danger, they work in group for support and to have an understanding to freely give and able to accept fraternal correction. That helps in some ways but the ultimate protection would be to always in communion with God – to have a good personal relationship with Him through prayers, lot and lot of them, immersing in the word, very regularly receiving the Sacraments and to always be humble, always submitting to the clergy/local ordinary, if it is a parish situation, or to the Pope, if it is an international body.

Attending the mass. From my observation, this is not much of a problem. Usually the Charismatics are mass attending folks. Today the daily weekday chapel is full with them. Those traditional Catholics must be wondering, where are these people come from who take the pews in the daily mass? They are the Charismatics who were so touched with a renewed love for the liturgy which they find so real now, that they just flock to the mass.

Of course, they can be sidetracked and do not attend mass as regular as they should.

It is common for clergy or religious to be included in a Charismatic team when they conduct various activities like Holy Spirit, healing, marriage seminar or praise rally. They have to be involved like in giving the Sacraments (Eucharist and Confession) or exposing the Blessed Sacrament. Sometimes a priest would take the talk himself.

Sometimes a Charismatic Community would have their own priest who came from their own members or any priest as a liaison person to connect the group to the local ordinary.

The word Catholic in the Charismatic Renewal is very important to describe what they are, the Renewal as their objective, and Charismatic, in that it is the Holy Spirit who gives the power.

 

[Rosebud77]

I once knew an Episcopalian priest in the US ( female) who would go to RC mass then go on to a lively charismatic church for “Praise and Worship”…

 

[Dorothy]

No offense but I’ll pass. I grew up in a fundamentlist pentecostal church where tongues, shaking, consulvsions, running the aisles and yelling loudly were the norm. I’d hope and pray that CCR doesn’t do this in a Mass.

I have never seen that at a Catholic Charismatic prayer meeting. Thankfully, I had been successfully launched into the Charismatic Renewal by a contemplative Carmelite priest. He was led by the Holy Spirit to be involved in the renewal, and he was instructive to those who thought they didn’t need the sacraments after their “renewal”.

Some of his MP3s can be found here:

advancedchristianity.com/

There are other topics as well. His name is Father Venard Poslusney, O. Carm. There is a short biography of him at that site.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I have never seen that at a Catholic Charismatic prayer meeting. Thankfully, I had been successfully launched into the Charismatic Renewal by a contemplative Carmelite priest. He was led by the Holy Spirit to be involved in the renewal, and he was instructive to those who thought they didn’t need the sacraments after their “renewal”.

Some of his MP3s can be found here:

advancedchristianity.com/

There are other topics as well. His name is Father Venard Poslusney, O. Carm. There is a short biography of him at that site.

That site is a good compilation, but some of it is mislabeled, and some of the presenters are controversial.

Dr. William Lane Craig taught theology professor at a Catholic institution in Europe, but he’s not Catholic, he’s evangelical. He’s got a podcast titled “Why I’m not a Catholic”, so as of now, he’s definitely NOT.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Continuing an issue that I find to be troubling with groups that call themselves “charismatic” - is the undiscerned invitation of so-called “mystics”, “visionaries”, “healers”, etc.

There were many groups supporting, visiting, and promoting Medjugorje; there are invitations like these, posted on official or semi-official channels:

Charlie Johnston, invited to numerous CCR gatherings, prayer circuits etc.
charliej373.wordpress.com/2014/08/04/on-spiritual-direction/

He’s still doing it, still some hardcore fanatics, despite his Archbishop’s ban:
archden.org/statement-on-the-alleged-visionary-mr-charlie-johnston/

ncregister.com/daily-news/alleged-visionary-charlie-johnston-continues-ministry-despite-denver-archdi

That’s just one “visionary”, there’s too many folks I’ve met like this; and dozens if not hundreds of followers for each “mystic”.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I’m pretty sure when the apostles spoke in tongues at Pentecost, they didn’t speak gibberish. They spoke clearly and distinctly in different languages.

 

[grannymh]

Continuing an issue that I find to be troubling with groups that call themselves “charismatic” - is the undiscerned invitation of so-called “mystics”, “visionaries”, “healers”, etc.

There were many groups supporting, visiting, and promoting Medjugorje; there are invitations like these, posted on official or semi-official channels:

Charlie Johnston, invited to numerous CCR gatherings, prayer circuits etc.
charliej373.wordpress.com/2014/08/04/on-spiritual-direction/

He’s still doing it, still some hardcore fanatics, despite his Archbishop’s ban:
archden.org/statement-on-the-alleged-visionary-mr-charlie-johnston/

ncregister.com/daily-news/alleged-visionary-charlie-johnston-continues-ministry-despite-denver-archdi

That’s just one “visionary”, there’s too many folks I’ve met like this; and dozens if not hundreds of followers for each “mystic”.

Please note.

It is the responsibility of the Catholic to report any of the abuses mentioned in post 251 or in any other post.

This means that every Catholic who witnesses any “charismatic” abuse of the Catholic religion or has proper evidence of an abuse has the responsibility to report it to the proper Catholic authority within the Diocese.

Because not all “abuses” are equal, I can give the chain of command to be used via post or PM.

In some Dioceses, the Bishop has already taken steps to prevent some of the abuses mentioned in post 251. May I suggest that Catholics, who are responsibly ready to report a speaker or a preacher, first check their Diocesan web site for a list of approved speakers.
Regarding this example from post 251.
Charlie Johnston, invited to numerous CCR gatherings, prayer circuits etc.
charliej373.wordpress.com/20…ual-direction/

He’s still doing it, still some hardcore fanatics, despite his Archbishop’s ban:
archden.org/statement-on-the-…rlie-johnston/

When this happens, it is the Catholic’s responsibility to speak to the Pastor of the Church affiliated with the particular Catholic Charismatic Renewal group. However, it may be simpler to check with the Diocesan liaison for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal concerning an inappropriate speaker because one first needs to know if the problem group is actually part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. A call to the Diocesan office will produce name and phone number of the liaison. In some areas, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is under the Vicar for Spirituality. At first, this may sound complicated. That should not deter Catholic responsibility.

 

[ffg]

What’s clear is that the term charismatic is meaningless because it means something different to each person. Even if it has a hard definition, experience seems to define it. You can’t box ‘charismatic’.

I’m sure there are people who would attend a Mass Sunday evening for teens and would call it charismatic due to the lively music.

But at the same time, someone else attending would not consider it charismatic due to their experience with what is ‘charismatic’ to them.

What the OP gets to experience here with this thread is how cultures exist within Catholicism. Catholics can vary in cultural traditions while at the same time declaring the same Creed.

That’s not necessarily something that would be very recognizable to someone outside of the CC.

I suppose, if truth hunting, one can ask oneself if it is reasonable for a church to require xxxxxxx as it pertains to potentially defining a cultural act or an individual’s way of worship considering God is the Father of ALL people. (and all people come from all kinds of various backgrounds)

Take care,

Mike

 

[Michael68]

What’s clear is that the term charismatic is meaningless because it means something different to each person. Even if it has a hard definition, experience seems to define it. You can’t box ‘charismatic’.

I’m sure there are people who would attend a Mass Sunday evening for teens and would call it charismatic due to the lively music.

But at the same time, someone else attending would not consider it charismatic due to their experience with what is ‘charismatic’ to them.

What the OP gets to experience here with this thread is how cultures exist within Catholicism. Catholics can vary in cultural traditions while at the same time declaring the same Creed.

That’s not necessarily something that would be very recognizable to someone outside of the CC.

I suppose, if truth hunting, one can ask oneself if it is reasonable for a church to require xxxxxxx as it pertains to potentially cutting out culture or an individual’s way of worship considering God is the Father of ALL people. (and all people come from all kinds of various backgrounds)

Take care,

Mike

Yes, I agree. We have what’s called a St. Joseph’s altar here once a year. I understand this is mainly an Italian tradition and not a Church tradition.

 

[ffg]

I’m pretty sure when the apostles spoke in tongues at Pentecost, they didn’t speak gibberish. They spoke clearly and distinctly in different languages.

A good point:

Acts 2: 4-8 (From USCCB site)

4 And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues,* as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.
5 Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem.
6 At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
7 They were astounded, and in amazement they asked, “Are not all these people who are speaking Galileans?
8 Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language?
We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya near Cyrene, as well as travelers from Rome,
11 both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans and Arabs, yet we hear them speaking in our own tongues of the mighty acts of God.”

Footnote from USCCB site:

• [2:4] To speak in different tongues: ecstatic prayer in praise of God, interpreted in Acts 2:6, 11 as speaking in foreign languages, symbolizing the worldwide mission of the church.

 

[SyroMalankara]

What’s clear is that the term charismatic is meaningless because it means something different to each person. Even if it has a hard definition, experience seems to define it. You can’t box ‘charismatic’.

I’m sure there are people who would attend a Mass Sunday evening for teens and would call it charismatic due to the lively music.

But at the same time, someone else attending would not consider it charismatic due to their experience with what is ‘charismatic’ to them.

What the OP gets to experience here with this thread is how cultures exist within Catholicism. Catholics can vary in cultural traditions while at the same time declaring the same Creed.

That’s not necessarily something that would be very recognizable to someone outside of the CC.

I suppose, if truth hunting, one can ask oneself if it is reasonable for a church to require xxxxxxx as it pertains to potentially defining a cultural act or an individual’s way of worship considering God is the Father of ALL people. (and all people come from all kinds of various backgrounds)

Take care,

Mike

You’re right, I don’t agree with some of these practices I’ve noted, but I don’t consider attachment to the Liturgy, the Fathers, the Apostolic Faith, serving the poor, etc. to be anything but charismatic grace

 

[ffg]

You’re right, I don’t agree with some of these practices I’ve noted, but I don’t consider attachment to the Liturgy, the Fathers, the Apostolic Faith, serving the poor, etc. to be anything but charismatic grace

Thanks for the reply!

You nailed the point I was making -

"I … consider (xxxxxx)… charismatic grace.’

One would have to ask you " What do you mean by ‘charismatic grace’? "

You wouldn’t point to a definition per the Church, you would have to explain the term you formed (or learned).

For definition purposes, there are two types of graces Sanctifying and Actual.

Defined well here - catholic.com/tracts/grace-what-it-is-and-what-it-does

Take care,

Mike

(Considering your examples, it seems what you call ‘charismatic grace’ aligns closely to what the Church would consider ‘Actual grace’.)

 

[grannymh]

What’s clear is that the term charismatic is meaningless because it means something different to each person. Even if it has a hard definition, experience seems to define it. You can’t box ‘charismatic’.

Obviously, as I learn from this thread and other threads, the word “charismatic” can be used in many different ways. No problem.

In the Catholic Church there is a definite description for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. (Note: this “description” includes a lot of details which are often overlooked.)

The apparent problem is that when “charismatic” is used in a general way – many, not all, persons do not take the sufficient time to learn enough to know why the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is unique to the Catholic Church.

Here are two proper Catholic information links.

brendancase.com/uploads/Key_to_the_Charismatic_Renewal.pdf

nsc-chariscenter.org/